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Daniel Browning

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removing the AA filter
« Reply #100 on: January 07, 2010, 03:06:23 am »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
I can see some of the differences. To me one image is to soft (but I'm no portrait photographer) the other over sharpened.

The aliasing artifacts in this image are different from over-sharpening artifacts (with the exception that an image that is already aliased will get even worse with sharpening). Try pulling both images into your sharpening workflow and give them the same parameters. I think you'll find that they sharpen much differently: the aliasing artifacts in the first image become much more pronounced with sharpening.

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
I presume that they are created from the same image using different down sampling methods?

Correct. Both images were generated from the same file:

20 MB original PNG conversion

The PNG was generated from this raw file:

24 MB Original raw file

To generate the aliased file, I downsampled the original PNG with a point-sampling algorithm in ImageMagick (a command-line image processing program):

convert -filter Point -resize 400x 2009-01-30-3481-rt.png 2009-01-30-3481-rt-400-point.png

To generate the anti-aliased file, I downsampled the same PNG file with the lanczos algorithm in ImageMagick:

convert -resize 400x 2009-01-30-3481.png 2009-01-30-3481-rt-400-lanczos.png

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
What about sharpening?

None in either image (not during conversion, post, nor after downsample).

The purpose of the demonstration is to show the difference between lots of aliasing (luma only) and very little aliasing. If someone prefers the aliased image and sees no artifacts in this extreme example, then there is no point in trying to demonstrate the artifacts to them using images with less extreme aliasing. Since Phil did see the artifacts in the extreme example, I moved on to a less extreme example with the SD14. In that image, he did not consider it to have artifacts, so somewhere between the two lies the point at which the aliasing becomes bad enough to cause an issue for him. If instead he had thought that the artifacts in the SD14 image were horrible (as I do), then I would have tried to find a comparison where the aliasing is even less extreme.

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
I am surprised John Sheehy or Graemes Natress have not chimed in....?

Well, it is a two-year-old thread.

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
All they did was blow some smoke and disapear, with ZERO images to even help their posts. Maybe they are at the drawng board to post some true test images?

John Sheehy has posted a bunch of images here and on other forums, but I don't think he participates here anymore.

As for Graeme, here are a few examples of his work:

http://www.red.com/shot_on_red/
http://red.cachefly.net/RedReel500.mov
http://red.cachefly.net/redreel/RedReel_h264_720.mov
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #101 on: January 07, 2010, 03:14:41 am »

Interesting stuff....on the last crps I did see the artifacts...jaggedy effects on the power lines...in BOTH Sd14 and 50D FILES.


And the prev were Jpegs....things got clear with the raw, and the samples gen by Erik...both showing "artifacts" (or were those just jpeg issues?  artifacts none the less


And how come we are ignoring the obvious difference in the 2 cameras?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 03:17:16 am by Phil Indeblanc »
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #102 on: January 07, 2010, 03:25:20 am »

I will check those links out for his works.  I don't know about moving pictures, as there maybe more to it with image tear and aliasing being more evident...but I will know better after the images I take.  and yes my eyes have been recently checked  :-)


i'll be back later
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 03:25:43 am by Phil Indeblanc »
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Plekto

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« Reply #103 on: January 07, 2010, 12:04:54 pm »

Quote
Did I mention 4.6mp no AA vs 15.1mp Canon?!

:-)

Well, that's the difference between real pixels and sub-pixels in a grid.  But both companies make bogus claims.  

(excuse the lengthy math here but bear with me)
The Sigma is only 4.6MP.    But that's sub APS-C size, or 20.7X13.8mm vs 36X24mm for full-frame.  Scaling the sensor up would get you: 2652X1.74 X 1769X1.74 or 4612X3076(14MP)   This results in a: 4612/1.4173 (~3250 dpi) equivalent scan of film.  Obviously this is a bit overkill, since most film is scanned at 2400dpi and scaling it up like this results in a 20MP scan, essentially.  Converting the sensor back to a more reasonable 2400dpi would result in:  ~3400X2270.(7.7MP)  The Foveon sensor needs to be 26.6X17.7mm.(about the size of the Canon higher-end sensors)  This seems reasonable to accomplish from an engineering perspective, but they are relying on marketing nonsense to claim it's "14MP".

Then again, if Sigma did scale it as-is to full frame, it would take a ~32MP Bayer sensor to match it.  Since the next generation of DSLRs are going to likely try to break the 30MP barrier, this seems like a no-brainer for Sigma.  Just take what you have and scale it to full-frame.  Nikon OTOH, has a real issue with trying to cram 30MP in their current top-end sensor.  They are hitting some very difficult engineering problems while Sigma just has to make more of the exact same thing to fill the frame.

The other problem is the industry as a whole has confused photoreceptor locations with pixels, so you get idiocy like claiming that the above 12MP camera actually has 12MP.  If you scaled to to actual full-color locations, it's really ~4256X0.666 x 2832X0.666, or  ~2837X1888 (5.36 million actual full-color locations)  This might not sound like a lot, but it's quite respectable, really, if we're talking real MP.  But consumers would have a brain fart and not understand because they think bigger is always better.  This also shows as well in the pictures.  The 12MP Nikon has a slight resolution edge over the SD14.  If we were comparing a 10MP Bayer sensor, we'd be roughly equivalent.  Except that the AA filter robs the Nikon of a few percentage points to where it's essentially a wash.  Neither is 35mm equivalent, but both do a decent job at what they do.

But as a once serious photographer, I don't see either as being enough resolution to do the job.  It's probably why I'll just get a cheap A850 and call it a day, since even with the AA filter on it, it more than covers 35mm scanned film.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 12:15:24 pm by Plekto »
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #104 on: January 07, 2010, 12:14:54 pm »

Quote from: Plekto
Well, that's the difference between real pixels and sub-pixels in a grid.  But both companies make bogus claims.  

(excuse the lengthy math here but bear with me)
The Sigma is only 4.6MP.    But that's sub APS-C size, or 20.7X13.8mm vs 36X24mm for full-frame.  Scaling the sensor up would get you: 2652X1.74 X 1769X1.74 or 4612X3076(14MP)   This results in a: 4612/1.4173 (~3250 dpi) equivalent scan of film.  Obviously this is a bit overkill, since most film is scanned at 2400dpi and scaling it up like this results in a 20MP scan, essentially.  Converting the sensor back to a more reasonable 2400dpi would result in:  ~3400X2270.(7.7MP)  The Foveon sensor needs to be 26.6X17.7mm.(about the size of the Canon higher-end sensors)  This seems reasonable to accomplish from an engineering perspective, but they are relying on marketing nonsense to claim it's "14MP".

The other problem is the industry as a whole has confused photoreceptor locations with pixels, so you get idiocy like claiming that the above 12MP camera actually has 12MP.  If you scaled to to actual full-color locations, it's really ~4256X0.666 x 2832X0.666, or  ~2837X1888 (5.36 million actual full-color locations)  This might not sound like a lot, but it's quite respectable, really, if we're talking real MP.  But consumers would have a brain fart and not understand because they think bigger is always better.  This also shows as well in the pictures.  The 12MP Nikon has a slight resolution edge over the SD14.  If we were comparing a 10MP Bayer sensor, we'd be roughly equivalent.  Except that the AA filter robs the Nikon of a few percentage points to where it's essentially a wash.  Neither is 35mm equivalent, but both do a decent job at what they do.


Makes sense.  I wish there was a way to continue the Foveon sensor dev to match up in REAL resolution to the currect 16mp and up cameras...then you would have a serious situation.

I agree the claims are a bit extra....but not too far off . Although in the posts earlier we are comparing the 50D, which is known to be NO BETTER resolution than the 40D (dpreview tests), at ~10MP.
So this makes more sense, as you state the Nik having better res at 12mp.

I really don't care too much about these things....BUT, I DO care that the "REAL"  on hands experience so far for me has been a NON issue with artifacts.  The crops that were last made by Erik show how....
For the SD14, maybe it is a slight detail that is "smudged" out
For the 50D, It is the entire image that is fuzzy, and making detail ares undistiguishable.
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #105 on: January 07, 2010, 02:13:40 pm »

Hi,

Just a few comments.

One of the issues is that downsampling creates artifacts. It seems that the routines we have in Photoshop may be less than optimal:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/foto/do...down_sample.htm

On the other hand, Adobe did try Lanzos in Lightroom but decided to go back to a combination of Bicubic and it's versions of smoother and sharper. Testing is often done using patterns that enhance the artifacts. The artifacting may be much less with real life subjects. As I said I'd expect more artifacts in the Foevon image. That said there are areas where I can see an advantage of the Canon in the down sampled comparison.

When the Foevon image is upsampled  to the same resolution as the Canon, the Canon image is much better. Make sure that you see the images at "actual pixels".

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
Makes sense.  I wish there was a way to continue the Foveon sensor dev to match up in REAL resolution to the currect 16mp and up cameras...then you would have a serious situation.

I agree the claims are a bit extra....but not too far off . Although in the posts earlier we are comparing the 50D, which is known to be NO BETTER resolution than the 40D (dpreview tests), at ~10MP.
So this makes more sense, as you state the Nik having better res at 12mp.

I really don't care too much about these things....BUT, I DO care that the "REAL"  on hands experience so far for me has been a NON issue with artifacts.  The crops that were last made by Erik show how....
For the SD14, maybe it is a slight detail that is "smudged" out
For the 50D, It is the entire image that is fuzzy, and making detail ares undistiguishable.
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #106 on: January 07, 2010, 02:40:49 pm »

I did look at them at actual res.  If you look right above the first straight post and other small areas, you see the 50D showing blurr and you cannot see the different rivets, they are a patch area of ?
In the Fov, Yes there are a few Oddly disappear...but, the ones that are there...more than half...are clear and identifiable.

Yes, downsampling, is downsampling, and that is something else..I produce ads, and web is not relevent until we stop printing magazines :-)

which brings me to another reason wanting more snap...clarity...press.
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joofa

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« Reply #107 on: January 07, 2010, 03:06:13 pm »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
It seems that the routines we have in Photoshop may be less than optimal:

Photoshop uses BiCubic among others, which only makes sense if the downsizing ratio is not more than a few pixels to 1 in each dimension. That is why you would see people coming up with heuristics to pre-blur an image before doing downsampling using BiCubic. I don't know if Photoshop does the preblur before BiCubic, but even if it does that is not the best approach. The problem is that stuff such as BiCubic was designed for interpolation (upsampling) and they are more concerned about the keeping the sample values at original pixel locations intact and not designed for information loss, which other techniques such as approximation methods handle gracefully.

It is not fully appreciated many times that the pre-filtering in such methods depends upon the reconstruction method. For e.g., in the case of sinc (ideal) reconstruction the prefilter is again a sinc (ideal low pass filter before sampling). However, if the reconstruction method is not sinc, (say linear, or cubic spline) then the optimal pre-filter is a different one. For e.g., IIRC, for the nearest neighbor reconstruction the optimal pre-filter is the one that averages all signal values in the sampling interval.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 03:45:18 pm by joofa »
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ejmartin

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« Reply #108 on: January 07, 2010, 03:22:54 pm »

Quote from: Plekto
Well, that's the difference between real pixels and sub-pixels in a grid.  But both companies make bogus claims.  

The other problem is the industry as a whole has confused photoreceptor locations with pixels, so you get idiocy like claiming that the above 12MP camera actually has 12MP.  If you scaled to to actual full-color locations, it's really ~4256X0.666 x 2832X0.666, or  ~2837X1888 (5.36 million actual full-color locations)  This might not sound like a lot, but it's quite respectable, really, if we're talking real MP.  But consumers would have a brain fart and not understand because they think bigger is always better.  This also shows as well in the pictures.  The 12MP Nikon has a slight resolution edge over the SD14.  If we were comparing a 10MP Bayer sensor, we'd be roughly equivalent.  Except that the AA filter robs the Nikon of a few percentage points to where it's essentially a wash.  Neither is 35mm equivalent, but both do a decent job at what they do.

I think it's a little more complicated than that.  If resolution were actually 1.5 times the pixel spacing, one wouldn't be able to resolve parallel lines at Nyquist; but one can, because the information is sampled at the pixel spacing, just in different passbands of the visible spectrum.  A good demosaic algorithm uses this fact and reconstructs the lines.  Pointlike structures are a different story.  So it really depends what sort of signal is presented as to what resolution is achieved; but since many signals are edges and lines rather than fine dots, in those situations something closer to the pixel spacing for resolution is achieved.
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« Reply #109 on: January 07, 2010, 03:30:48 pm »

Hi,

If you look at the images at Sigma native resolution you can see that wires in the sigma (left image have some jaggies):


[attachment=19259:Canon_downscaled.jpg]

If you look at the image at native Canon size you see that the Canon image still has no jaggies (Canon is now on the left side, sorry)

[attachment=19260:SigmaUpscaled_2.jpg]

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
I did look at them at actual res.  If you look right above the first straight post and other small areas, you see the 50D showing blurr and you cannot see the different rivets, they are a patch area of ?
In the Fov, Yes there are a few Oddly disappear...but, the ones that are there...more than half...are clear and identifiable.

Yes, downsampling, is downsampling, and that is something else..I produce ads, and web is not relevent until we stop printing magazines :-)

which brings me to another reason wanting more snap...clarity...press.
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #110 on: January 07, 2010, 03:46:44 pm »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

If you look at the images at Sigma native resolution you can see that wires in the sigma (left image have some jaggies):


[attachment=19259:Canon_downscaled.jpg]

If you look at the image at native Canon size you see that the Canon image still has no jaggies (Canon is now on the left side, sorry)

[attachment=19260:SigmaUpscaled_2.jpg]

Best regards
Erik


Yes even in the thicker cable areas, you see the line in better seperation....Eh Allora?!?  4.6 vs 15.1

My post is not Sd14 vs the claim of 14mp...allora
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #111 on: January 07, 2010, 04:39:25 pm »

Hi,

Yes of course, but we see no jaggies at actual pixels. Three possible explanations

1) Detail is significantly thicker den pixel size, so it covers more then one pixel
2) Sensor outresolves lens, or more correctly, the lens has low MTF at double Nyquist frequency
3) AA-filter is doing the job it is intended to do

Or a combination of the three factors above

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
Yes even in the thicker cable areas, you see the line in better seperation....Eh Allora?!?  4.6 vs 15.1

My post is not Sd14 vs the claim of 14mp...allora
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #112 on: January 07, 2010, 05:46:30 pm »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

Yes of course, but we see no jaggies at actual pixels. Three possible explanations

1) Detail is significantly thicker den pixel size, so it covers more then one pixel
2) Sensor outresolves lens, or more correctly, the lens has low MTF at double Nyquist frequency
3) AA-filter is doing the job it is intended to do

Or a combination of the three factors above

Best regards
Erik


Thank you Erik for helping understand these things in a plain fashion as I am not well versed in the scientific terms.

The possibility of the line on a single pixel is something that comes to my mind.

So if the SD14 had higher resolution, would we be seeing those jaggy lines (also see it on the thicker lines going diagonally up) ?
I am not sure of #2 being a factor, it is beyond my observations and understanding of the relation.
#3, I would like to know if the 50D has a lower RAW setting...ONLY THEN can we see if the AA is doing the job...As I suspect the line would be a blurry darker tone of NOTHING if it were the case.  But I cannot say for sure. :-)....

Because we have to calculate the measure of how it is viewed.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 05:47:38 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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joofa

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« Reply #113 on: January 07, 2010, 06:07:46 pm »

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
I don't know about moving pictures, as there maybe more to it with image tear and aliasing being more evident...

Glad you mentioned moving pictures. One may be surprised that the aliasing offered by Bayer sensor is very similar in linear theoretical treatment to aliasing in an NTSC TV signal. At least 25 years ago before Shannon proposed a simple theoretical way of sampling using a lowpass filter, TV engineers were aware of aliasing and figuring out how to remove it. Shannon himself acknowledged this fact in his landmark paper. However, the early TV engineers termed "aliasing" as "confusion" in a signal, and it was of a very interesting variety as a 2D picture was scanned like a 1-D signal. However, in any case, when chroma info aliased into luma it produced those "crawling dots", and when luma aliased into chroma it produced those dreaded "moving color patterns". Among the artifacts offered by linear analysis of Bayer CFA, the luma and chroma aliasing happen almost exactly in the same manner.
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2010, 06:29:09 pm »

Quote from: joofa
However, in any case, when chroma info aliased into luma it produced those "crawling dots", and when luma aliased into chroma it produced those dreaded "moving color patterns".
Among the artifacts offered by linear analysis of Bayer CFA, the luma and chroma aliasing happen almost exactly in the same manner.



Knowing the "contamination" is interesting to me...at least from what you say.  So was Bayers analysis proven?  The lum/Chrom alias happen in the same manner as ? (Bayer makes moving picture sensors)

So Shannon "invented" the AA filter?
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joofa

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« Reply #115 on: January 07, 2010, 06:52:07 pm »

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
Knowing the "contamination" is interesting to me...at least from what you say.  So was Bayers analysis proven?  The lum/Chrom alias happen in the same manner as ? (Bayer makes moving picture sensors)

Theoretical treatment of aliasing of luma and chroma signal (for NTSC defined as YCbCr/YIQ) and for Bayer CFA (defined as  a certain linear combination of RGB) are very similar.

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
So Shannon "invented" the AA filter?

No it wouldn't appear that Shannon invented the AA filter. The ideas were known earlier. In fact the term Nyquist frequency is coming from some idea from a paper by Nyquist in late 1920's or 1930's IIRC, where as Shanon presented his paper in late 1950's. Whitaker had similar ideas as early as 1904. And some Russian scientists (Kotelnikov) were aware of and presented analysis much earlier than Shannon. What Shannon did was to outline a simple theoretical way of sampling without aliasing by incorporating a lowpass filter. Therefore, of course, Shannon's sampling theorem applies to bandlimited signals. However, even Shannon's ideas have now been surpassed and they are only considered a special case in the more general non-bandlimited sampling (from L2 space) to other spaces.

The thing is people have invented same things over and over again. Think wavelets! Those were good days when Engineering had connection with Mathematics and Physics. These days for many areas in Electrical Engineering (graduate level) Physics is largely irrelevant, which is sad.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 07:08:39 pm by joofa »
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #116 on: January 07, 2010, 07:15:23 pm »

so this is  film techniques and formulas applied to digital...surely many things can be learned.  thanks.
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« Reply #117 on: January 07, 2010, 07:46:17 pm »

Quote from: joofa
Theoretical treatment of aliasing of luma and chroma signal (for NTSC defined as YCbCr/YIQ) and for Bayer CFA (defined as  a certain linear combination of RGB) are very similar.

You keep going on and on about this and how aliasing can be removed without altering any image detail. How about posting a link to a scientific paper or something instead of repeating the same assertions over and over without offering a single shred of evidence to back them up?
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #118 on: January 08, 2010, 12:24:12 am »

Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
You keep going on and on about this and how aliasing can be removed without altering any image detail. How about posting a link to a scientific paper or something instead of repeating the same assertions over and over without offering a single shred of evidence to back them up?


You see what happen Jonathan...:-)
So far we have 7 pages, and really NO apple to apple comparison of a AA vs NON-AA  of "artifacts" coza che?


Apple to Apple would be acceptable for....

1.both sensors to be in the ball park...so 1 to 2 difference is not a big issue, as we already are splitting hairs.
2. same lens...exact actual physical lens. for obvious reasons...(I know, nothing is obvious so far)
3. Same, unmoved or altered still subject under exact same TESTED light. (we don't want any inconsistant pops)
4. ?? feel free to add something worth the digital space on MR MR's servers.

It will take me a bit longer to do the test.  I have plenty of NON AA images I can post, but my other Bodies are not going to be back for a bit longer than I though (next week sometime).

So in the meantime, I would love to see any other comparisons...and please state if the images comply to the few restrictions, or if they are NOT, but somewhat close and worth a look.

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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #119 on: January 08, 2010, 01:23:53 am »

Hi,

To begin with:

Thinks about two horizontal rows of pixels with a line nearly parallel to pixels rows. If the pixels are small with spacing between them the line could either affect the upper row or the lower one. So the line would at one point flip from one row to next one. This is called the staircase effect some times. Now if the pixels are large, the line line would affect both rows simultaneously at a stage, so it would glide from one row to another. A thin line would still flip. I'm not good at illustration but you could try it with a ruler and checked paper.

As long a lens can project a line that is thinner than the spacing between the sensors this problem will arise.

Now, what is resolution? Resolution is the ability to tell small thing at small distances apart. To be able to do that you need some contrast (like a dark line between two bright lines). MTF just measures the contrast between the dark and light part of a line pair. The thinner the line pairs are the lower the contrast will be. Ultimately MTF and resolution will be limited by diffraction.

Now, let's consider the Sigma with a pixel spacing of about 0.08 mm. It would have about 63 lp/mm. At this frequency simpler lenses will transfer really little contrast. Most MTF charts cover 10, 20 and 40 lp/mm, so we are essentially left with very little data. A perfect lens may have something like 65% contrast at f/8. This says essentially that with a lower quality lens a line pair would be mostly gray, with a truly excellent lens they would be dark gray and very light gray.

So a good lens would show jaggies while a less good lens would smear out the lines.

A Swedish monthly that tests both cameras and lenses has discovered that they need to find optimal apertures for resolution tests on new cameras. Earlier they could just use top notch optics stopped down to f/8 but this is clearly not the case any longer. For 4/3 cameras and also the Canon 50D they need about the best lens in the inventory, and stop it down to f/5.6 resolution worsens by f/8. Now, the Swedish monthly is using Imatest and what they actually measure is the resolution where half the contrast is lost, and I think this also takes some sharpening into account.  But there is no doubt that sensor pitches are close to be limited by lens performance.

You will find absurdly high resolution figures for lenses like 200 lp/mm, but those figures are only possible at large apertures an at smallish contrast.

This figure that I have measured myself illustrates the issue.

http://83.177.178.7/ekr/images/stories/difractionlimit.gif

2000 Lines/PH corresponds to about 63 lp/h. You can see that resolution is diminishing when stopping down beyond f/8. Better lenses would shift the peak to the left. Higher resolution would push the peak upwards. Note that the Alpha 100 (at 10 MP) doesn't resolve much higher than the KonicMinolta 7D (at 6 MP) past f/11 or so. This limitation is by laws of physics, it applies to Leica and Zeiss, too. For optimum sharpness you cannot stop down!

Best regards
Erik








Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
Thank you Erik for helping understand these things in a plain fashion as I am not well versed in the scientific terms.

The possibility of the line on a single pixel is something that comes to my mind.

So if the SD14 had higher resolution, would we be seeing those jaggy lines (also see it on the thicker lines going diagonally up) ?
I am not sure of #2 being a factor, it is beyond my observations and understanding of the relation.
#3, I would like to know if the 50D has a lower RAW setting...ONLY THEN can we see if the AA is doing the job...As I suspect the line would be a blurry darker tone of NOTHING if it were the case.  But I cannot say for sure. :-)....

Because we have to calculate the measure of how it is viewed.
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Erik Kaffehr
 
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