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Author Topic: removing the AA filter  (Read 105004 times)

Phil Indeblanc

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removing the AA filter
« Reply #80 on: January 06, 2010, 12:40:21 pm »

Quote from: Plekto
The F5 was the old technology.  The new uses a similar technology but they also have arranged the (sub)pixels in a diagonal grid and also do some fancy binning as well before the bracketing and blending is applied.

Because our eyes don't track diagonal displacement as easily and they can arrange the sensor in effectively a solid stacked array(as opposed to a triangle type formation in a Bayer sensor) - just on a slightly tighter diagonal.  A typical Bayer sensor suffers a roughly .6-.7 efficiency ratio in each dimension compared to film's real pixels at each location.  The Fuji, with the blending applied, though, it creates a .9 or better ratio.  It's close but roughly 1MP short of 35mm scanned film.  Still, to do the same with a Bayer sensor, you need a whopping ~16MP due to the efficiency losses.  And that creates a lot of artifacts and errors in the image that must either be downsampled or adjusted with various hardware and software trickery.  The software is great at what it does lately, but it's really fancy kludging.  Bayer sensors have issues that can't be worked around past what we currently see with the D3x and similar cameras.   Something new is required at this point to make any significant gain in image quality.

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_c...s5pro/features/
This is the older B&B technology and it works very very well.

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_c...es/page_02.html
This is the new technology which they unfortunately aren't putting in a DSLR body or making higher resolution.  The three modes are high resolution which is standard DSLR and useless, the HDR mode, which is also no better than other sensors, and the HQ mode which is what should be used nearly all the time as default - because it gives you the clean look that you want.  But you do have to apparently defeat the on-board AI that wants to select what it thinks is best and just use this mode.

Huge pain.  I hate it when electronics try to out-think you.

Of course, 6MP in HQ mode also limits the resolution of fine details too greatly.  That's the real issue with the Foveon and Fuji sensors.  Unlike the D3x which is approaching the limits of the optics in fine details, they are only halfway there.  If that.

It's so close, but not in a proper DSLR type package(WHY???) and about half the MP it needs to be(12MP with this sensor would flat out punk everything short of a DB, yet Fuji doesn't seem to want to go there for some odd reason)  And Sigma has done zilch with their sensor as well.


Wish they would further dev these technologies into recent sizes

I want to take the images, and if it is hard for me to find a difference, I will not think of it any more, unless I get a new body to see if the AA has changed strength, and to what degree.

If I see the difference and it is fairly easy to see...I will still be in a wonder why there is no OPTIONAL AA, or versions without AA.

As I stated earlier, and the ports that Daniel posted...
I have never seen these artifacts in my RAW files using DSLR or MFdB that have no AA.
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #81 on: January 06, 2010, 12:53:45 pm »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

I have not done any testing on AA-filter less cameras as I don't have any.

I have done some testing 6x7 film against digital. Whatever your results are someone is sure to complain. In my view the kind of testing to do can be valuable to:

- Potential M9 buyers
- Any one considering his camera for AA-filter removal

It may also help to increase our understanding of the issues at hand.

But, someone will always find some error in your testing. Be prepared for some "flak".

Best regards
Erik


Thanks for the heads up, I have seen the flak on others..:-)

I cannot see how you can do apple to apple when you are using a differnt "FILM"  If we were testing Velvia 50 vs Velvia 50 with some brand filter vs no brand filter and we were getting softer images...OK,
but doing a Film to Sensor. That is another test that I am not interested in.  I stopped processing E6 and going to labs a few years back :-)

I was hoping to get manufacturers listening so they can give us an OPTION....IF the test finds that there is enough softness to desire more out of AA DSLR's.

As I mention, I had done this test, and I did find it to be sharper using the KODAK SLRC(13+mp) body vs the 1ds(11+mp).  But because of all the color issues, I used the 1Ds more, but shortly after I got the MFdB.

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Daniel Browning

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« Reply #82 on: January 06, 2010, 02:01:31 pm »

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
I see exactly what you see here, and that is horrible.

Excellent! Most people who see this picture prefer the aliased version, so it's nice to meet another person who dislikes the aliasing in it as much as I do, at least for images where the aliasing is extremely bad.

Now the only question is about circumstances where the aliasing is much more subtle (which is usually the case when comparing filtered-vs-filterless cameras).

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
Maybe you are referring to some other format besides RAW?

I am talking about raw. The reason I gave you the extreme example was to set a baseline. If you had preferred the aliased image in the extreme example (as many do), then I would know that you prefer the aliased image in a more subtle example for sure.

Now let's take a look at the following somewhat flawed comparison between an SD14 (no AA filter) and a 50D (relatively weak AA filter).

Here is the SD14 100% crop:



And here is the 50D 100% crop (after downsampling to the same pixel count):



The full SD14 image

The full 50D image.

The purpose of the comparison was not to show the difference between filtered and unfiltered cameras, so it is somewhat flawed for the purpose of this thread, but I think it can still illustrate some of the types of  aliasing artifacts that are seen with filterless cameras.

This example does not have aliasing that is quite as extreme as my last example, but it is a man-made subject, where more people tend to object to the aliasing artifacts.

For example, there appear to be many missing rivets in the SD14 image, while they are all there in the 50D image.

Do you feel the same way about this aliased image as you did the last (i.e. "horrible")? Or do you see the aliased image as having better sharpness/3D than the anti-aliased one? If the former, then the next task will be to find a comparison where the difference in aliasing is more subtle.
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Daniel Browning

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« Reply #83 on: January 06, 2010, 02:18:06 pm »

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
If I see the difference and it is fairly easy to see...

I'm sure you will see the difference. The AA filter reduces contrast at spatial frequencies 30% lower than needed to suppress aliasing, so the downside is very easy to see. The only question is whether the loss in contrast is worth the decrease in artifacts. For me, the answer is a resounding yes, and I feel that most of the contrast can be recovered with sharpening. Others see no difference in artifacts, and/or disagree about the sharpening, so to them the loss in contrast has no upside.

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
I will still be in a wonder why there is no OPTIONAL AA, or versions without AA.

My guess is that it's because the market is not large enough to support it. It would have to be an all new DSLR line, like the difference between Canon 1000D and 400D. The new filterless line of DSLR would need to have as many sales as the other lines, and manufacturers must feel that it will not, otherwise I'm sure they would do it for the money. Or perhaps it's because the support expenses (complaints/returns due to artifacts) outweigh the increased sales profits.
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #84 on: January 06, 2010, 02:44:12 pm »

Quote from: Daniel Browning
Now let's take a look at the following somewhat flawed comparison between an SD14 (no AA filter) and a 50D (relatively weak AA filter).


The purpose of the comparison was not to show the difference between filtered and unfiltered cameras, so it is somewhat flawed for the purpose of this thread, but I think it can still illustrate some of the types of  aliasing artifacts that are seen with filterless cameras.

This example does not have aliasing that is quite as extreme as my last example, but it is a man-made subject, where more people tend to object to the aliasing artifacts.

For example, there appear to be many missing rivets in the SD14 image, while they are all there in the 50D image.

Do you feel the same way about this aliased image as you did the last (i.e. "horrible")? Or do you see the aliased image as having better sharpness/3D than the anti-aliased one? If the former, then the next task will be to find a comparison where the difference in aliasing is more subtle.



This is not an really good comparison.

I made these observations below from the jpegs...BUT I will ignore them. they mean little to me. I don't have a RAW vs RAW. The download of the raw is not available for either file (But I did download the other files in raw and will check later)

50D is known to have some issues as the microlens have no gapping.  The SD14 is upresed to the 50D size. (yet still looks really good in comparison).

these are OUT of CAMERA JPEGS.


Oddly enough on this sample the SD14 is more attractive to me... Yes you are right the subject makes it so...machined subjects have more pop. (50D has a magenta cast that is bothersome and can muddle things also)
Did you mean...People prefer the unfiltered image on machine made subjects as they are straight lines and clear seperations vs organic ?

I am going to guess on this and may be obviouse....When a AA fliter is used, the sensor is less sensitive to be "judgmental" of assigning an 0 or a 1, or any number to identify a hue.  Without it, it makes a more "cut" decision.
For me, it looks more clear cut. as I see the rivets on the SD14 may be blurred to the color on a few, but on the 50D they are all blurred.

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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #85 on: January 06, 2010, 02:47:11 pm »

BTW....I am not finding the artifacts in these 2 samples....I do notice a few rivets blurred, and I will look at it more closely and other areas...but it is NO point doing it on a JPEG.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 02:47:41 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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Daniel Browning

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« Reply #86 on: January 06, 2010, 03:19:55 pm »

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
I don't have a RAW vs RAW. The download of the raw is not available for either file

Both raw files can be downloaded from the link in my post. Here are direct links:

SDIM3020.X3F
IMG_3026.CR2

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
The SD14 is upresed to the 50D size. (yet still looks really good in comparison). [...] Oddly enough on this sample the SD14 is more attractive to me.

OK, it appears this is where our perceptions begin to differ. I find the SD14 to be inferior in every way, and especially so when upsampled.


Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
Yes you are right the subject makes it so...machined subjects have more pop. Did you mean...People prefer the unfiltered image on machine made subjects as they are straight lines and clear seperations vs organic ?

Actually, I meant the opposite. The preference for aliasing can be split along these lines:

  • Always likes aliasing
  • Likes aliasing on organic subjects but not man-made
  • Likes aliasing on man-made but not organic subjects
  • Always dislikes aliasing

My experience is that the most common preference is "Likes aliasing on organic subjects but not man-made".

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
I am going to guess on this and may be obviouse....When a AA fliter is used, the sensor is less sensitive to be "judgmental" of assigning an 0 or a 1, or any number to identify a hue.  Without it, it makes a more "cut" decision.

I think that's a good analogy.

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
as I see the rivets on the SD14 may be blurred to the color on a few, but on the 50D they are all blurred.

This is a significant departure in our tastes. To me, it is much better to have an image that tells you "there are a bunch of small rivets here, but they're blurry and hard to see" rather than "here are a bunch of sharp and detailed rivets, and by the way, some of them are completely missing." I'd rather have a blurry and realistic view of something than a sharp and false view.
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #87 on: January 06, 2010, 03:26:13 pm »

Quote from: Daniel Browning
Both raw files can be downloaded from the link in my post. Here are direct links:

SDIM3020.X3F
IMG_3026.CR2



OK, it appears this is where our perceptions begin to differ. I find the SD14 to be inferior in every way, and especially so when upsampled.




Actually, I meant the opposite. The preference for aliasing can be split along these lines:

  • Always likes aliasing
  • Likes aliasing on organic subjects but not man-made
  • Likes aliasing on man-made but not organic subjects
  • Always dislikes aliasing

My experience is that the most common preference is "Likes aliasing on organic subjects but not man-made".



I think that's a good analogy.



This is a significant departure in our tastes. To me, it is much better to have an image that tells you "there are a bunch of small rivets here, but they're blurry and hard to see" rather than "here are a bunch of sharp and detailed rivets, and by the way, some of them are completely missing." I'd rather have a blurry and realistic view of something than a sharp and false view.


Man made?, but not organic?  thats a bit confusing for me.  that structure is assembled by man...those parts are NOT man made.


I will post more feedback when I get back :-)
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Daniel Browning

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« Reply #88 on: January 06, 2010, 03:31:35 pm »

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
Man made?, but not organic?  thats a bit confusing for me.  that structure is assembled by man...those parts are NOT man made.

 Technically speaking, the portrait I posted above is also man-made (though I consider it "organic").  
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Plekto

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« Reply #89 on: January 06, 2010, 06:14:14 pm »

Quote
Oddly enough on this sample the SD14 is more attractive to me...

That's the difference, though.  The SD14 looks smoother and has more accurate colors overall.  Though it obviously is suffering from resolution and moire issues, they are all blurred the same wherever they happen.  It really looks like you're shooting with poor definition film and a lens with less than perfect optics as opposed to digital.  At least in my opinion.  But that's still a very pleasing result if you're taking scenery and other shots where every detail isn't critical.

Now, a lot of people probably don't like that "look", and that's fine as well.  But Bayer sensors also have their share of problems with color balance and obvious blurring of certain parts of the image as they try to compensate.  You'll often see red areas on roses for instance that are very blurry and ill-defined and green areas that pop out at you and are crisp in the same image.

http://www.ddisoftware.com/sd14-5d/
A good writeup of the differences.  Is one better than the other?  Hard to say either way, since both have areas that they excel at and areas where you wish you could kick it in the rear end to make it work properly.

But a few highlights:
- The Foveon sensor has 1700 LPI resolution no matter what it's shooting at.  Bayer sensors as you can see in the chart 1/4 the way down are all over the place for various colors(and why black and white resolution tests are junk - they must be color.  Purple is a known problem area for Bayer sensors.  And I'd rather it blow out yellowish like film and how our eyes see sunlight affecting objects than pure white.  

- 2/3 the way down it shows how this can affect color images.  I'd personally rather look at consistent results than varying resolutions, but then again, the Foveon/Sigma sensor is just too low.  The sensor is effectively APS-C size and resolution(bit smaller actually).  Huge fail here.  But the results do look very nice for what it does render.  

- The bottom images also show it well.  The Bayer sensor has fairly cold and accurate images, but that's not what we see with our eyes(the SD14 is off from a technical perspective but is correct from a visual one)

http://www.polas.net/sigma/sd14/d200/sd14_vs_d200.php
Here it's a bit more mixed.  Sigma wins for color and highlights in my book, but has a really awful DR because the sensor effectively is ISO 50 film and the rest is digital trickery and boosting of the signals.  That's perhaps the biggest failing of the technology in that it's too much like film in this respect.  The Fuji, otoh, has no such issues.  The high quality mode does great with DR as well.  And you can recover most photos that are slightly washed out in processing, which is impossible with other sensors.

note - his claims, IMO, are wrong about the highlights, as sunlight is *yellow* and our eyes expect yellowish white where there's too much sun and not pure white.  True they do blow out far sooner, but it's color-correct over-saturation.  It looks like you took Velvia and put it in a half-frame camera or old 35mm pocket camera.   Of course, one advantage of both the Fuji and Sigma bodies is that they accept Nikon lenses(good choice here) and any crappy lens will produce the same consistent results(sigh).  This can mean a good price savings but as a person who has dealt with medium format and black and white photography as well, it's too much to swallow.  In fact, I had a SD10 a few years back and sold it because it was giving me beautiful but pocket camera results that were virtually identical to my old 35mm Konica rangefinder (circa 1980 or so - still sees use on trips as a backup).  I'd hoped that the SD15 was a full frame sensor but no luck.  And Fuji's idiocy boggles my mind.  Best sensor on the market in a non SLR body...
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 11:05:18 am by Plekto »
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #90 on: January 06, 2010, 11:56:18 pm »

Quote from: Daniel Browning
Technically speaking, the portrait I posted above is also man-made (though I consider it "organic").

I would 100% agree that it is organic, but God might interject on it being man made.  :-P  
well, I setup most of my subject material, and mounted the lens, .  I have a couple bodies and lens' getting serviced, and should be back any day. So I think by Monday or so I should have taken the pictures.


I still don't know what you mean by artifact, as I have still not seen any sample other than the first portrait which again, I have not seen this in the years of shooting I have done.  And on the SD14 vs 50D....2 bad examples.  Sorry.

Plekto, Interesting sensor comparison...I will read the link when i can.  But So far thats you and I preferring the SD14 image :-)

I don't know where Daniel gets "people prefer the blurred look" data, and I honestly can not give it any value.  And I am not sure how you have quantified your experience?  How many people have you done this side by side study comparison...and why?  Why not see what you like, or perhaps you have done it on behalf of sensor mfg-ers?

I don't want to sound odd about it...but the claims that most people prefer this over the other claim IS a bit odd to me.

Regardless, this is good posting, and hope I can set aside this ponder and spend more time shooting.

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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #91 on: January 07, 2010, 12:05:50 am »

Quote from: Daniel Browning
Excellent! Most people who see this picture prefer the aliased version, so it's nice to meet another person who dislikes the aliasing in it as much as I do, at least for images where the aliasing is extremely bad.

Now the only question is about circumstances where the aliasing is much more subtle (which is usually the case when comparing filtered-vs-filterless cameras).



I am talking about raw. The reason I gave you the extreme example was to set a baseline. If you had preferred the aliased image in the extreme example (as many do), then I would know that you prefer the aliased image in a more subtle example for sure.

Now let's take a look at the following somewhat flawed comparison between an SD14 (no AA filter) and a 50D (relatively weak AA filter).

Here is the SD14 100% crop:



And here is the 50D 100% crop (after downsampling to the same pixel count):



The full SD14 image

The full 50D image.


In areas where the rivets are close, the 50D shows a slab of fuzzy matter. You will NEVER recover this from sharpening. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER. Period....never.

on the UPRES SD14 image, you STILL get this detail! Amazingly so.  (this is in some way a 5-6mp camera)  Now the SD14 CLAIMS 14mp res on this camera, but this is with BIG help from the fact that it doesnt have a AA filter!  Because if it did, you would see a much fuzzy picture, and they would NOT be able to even make the claim!Period.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 12:07:36 am by Phil Indeblanc »
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #92 on: January 07, 2010, 12:53:30 am »

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
In areas where the rivets are close, the 50D shows a slab of fuzzy matter. You will NEVER recover this from sharpening. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER. Period....never.

on the UPRES SD14 image, you STILL get this detail! Amazingly so.  (this is in some way a 5-6mp camera)  Now the SD14 CLAIMS 14mp res on this camera, but this is with BIG help from the fact that it doesnt have a AA filter!  Because if it did, you would see a much fuzzy picture, and they would NOT be able to even make the claim!Period.



I looked over the RAW files, and the 50D was not THAT bad....better than the jpegs posted here, even the crops....

BUT...You are comparing a 4.6 vs a 15.1 MP SENSOR!!!

btw...that 50D image had magenta-sickle cell amiba all over...otherwise they need to scrap that entire bridge as it is all rusted...even do a control burn on the forest as it is infected with Magenta-nitus.

thats why these comparison posts are Water under the bridge :-P
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 12:57:24 am by Phil Indeblanc »
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Daniel Browning

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« Reply #93 on: January 07, 2010, 01:01:30 am »

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
I don't know where Daniel gets "people prefer the blurred look" data,

Actually, what I said is that most people prefer the aliased version - which is the "un-blurred" look (no AA filter).

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
And I am not sure how you have quantified your experience?

Sometimes I get this kind of feedback from clients (wedding, portrait, print sales, etc.), but usually it's from  conversation with friends and online folks.

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
How many people have you done this side by side study comparison

I've posted that specific portrait four or five times, but I think there have only a dozen responses or so.

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
...and why?

To discuss, share, and learn more about aliasing.

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
Why not see what you like?

I don't understand the question.
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #94 on: January 07, 2010, 01:18:50 am »

Hi,

I include two screendumps. Both exposures normalize using "auto" in LR, both white balanced against same spot on bridge.

Two comparisons
1) Canon downscaled with bicubic sharper
2) Sigma upscaled with bicubic softer

The Sigma is here at great disadvantage  in 2) because the Canon has much higher resolution. I see less aliasing in the Sigma image than I expected. Downscaling an image is not without perils as it will also introduce some aliasing.

Best regards
Erik

[attachment=19249:Canon_downscaled.jpg]
[attachment=19251:SigmaUpscaled_2.jpg]

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
In areas where the rivets are close, the 50D shows a slab of fuzzy matter. You will NEVER recover this from sharpening. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER. Period....never.

on the UPRES SD14 image, you STILL get this detail! Amazingly so.  (this is in some way a 5-6mp camera)  Now the SD14 CLAIMS 14mp res on this camera, but this is with BIG help from the fact that it doesnt have a AA filter!  Because if it did, you would see a much fuzzy picture, and they would NOT be able to even make the claim!Period.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 01:31:35 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #95 on: January 07, 2010, 01:31:29 am »

[quote name='ErikKaffehr' post='338207' date='Jan 7 2010, 02:18 AM']Hi,

I include two screendumps. Both exposures normalize using "auto" in LR, both white balanced against same spot on bridge.

Two comparisons
1) Canon downscaled with bicubic sharper
2) Sigma upscaled with bicubic softer

Best regards
Erik


Nice post to compare Erik!

....wow that SD14 image claim of 14 is not at all an exageration...
I didn't upres the SD14, so seeing it like this (SD14 looks slightly larger?) side to side is very nice.

I see the wires going up showing the jaggedy on BOTH images. I also see some better contrast and slight better detial(?where the fence is on top) on the 50D.

This post shows me how NICE that SD14 really is !  I have much more respect for the Foveon after seeing this closer.  Too bad they are maxxed out.


Did I mention 4.6mp no AA vs 15.1mp Canon?!

:-)


Thanks for clarity Daniel...just wanted a bit more on your angle of things....and, so OK, the NO AA is preferred....makes more sense to me :-)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 01:35:29 am by Phil Indeblanc »
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #96 on: January 07, 2010, 01:42:03 am »

Hi,

I can see some of the differences. To me one image is to soft (but I'm no portrait photographer) the other over sharpened. I don't think that those images are shot with different cameras as I cannot see any movement in the object.

I presume that they are created from the same image using different down sampling methods? What about sharpening?

Best regards
Erik



Quote from: Daniel Browning
Sure thing. The differences are sometimes very subtle. It's a good idea to first examine an image where the aliasing is very obvious and pronounced. Here is one such demonstration: the first image has lots of aliasing, the second has very little:





I suggest opening them in browser tabs for A/B comparison. Here are a few examples of what is different:

  • Speckling in the hair (not there in real life).
  • Individual hairs of stubble (they should be too small to see).
  • Ear is jagged.
  • Catchlight zigzags

Those are examples of the kinds of artifacts that make aliased images look fake and unnatural to me.
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #97 on: January 07, 2010, 01:52:20 am »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

I can see some of the differences. To me one image is to soft (but I'm no portrait photographer) the other over sharpened. I don't think that those images are shot with different cameras as I cannot see any movement in the object.

I presume that they are created from the same image using different down sampling methods? What about sharpening?

Best regards
Erik


true observation
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #98 on: January 07, 2010, 02:48:33 am »

I am surprised John Sheehy or Graemes Natress have not chimed in....?  

All they did was blow some smoke and disapear, with ZERO images to even help their posts. Maybe they are at the drawng board to post some true test images?

And I don't mean it in a negative way...but I hate posts that are so one sided and convinced and there is Little or misguided or even ZERO backup to the claim.  So pardon my reactions.

They can easily shut me up, and the others with posting what they find....maybe they just posted textbook/something they read or studied...not experience.

That example of the doctor med percription analogy was very good, I can relate :-)

I hope I am wrong, but the last post with pictures makes lots of sense...  4.6 vs 15.1 WOW...it is a wow for me.

Maybe I need to find someone with a A900 or D3x file so it can go up against the MFdB?   I would love to see a SIDE by SIDE RAW file of these 2.  I know there was a HOT debate in the MF forum doing a overall comparison...but I dont think on such a specifc area.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 02:50:41 am by Phil Indeblanc »
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ErikKaffehr

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removing the AA filter
« Reply #99 on: January 07, 2010, 02:57:12 am »

Hi,

Graeme Natress is doing "raw conversion stuff" for RED, so he does know a couple of things about the issue. Now, RED is about motion pictures and compression utilizing motion prediction. That kind of algorithm really suffers from aliasing artifacts, so I guess Graeme is extra sensitive for it.

Best regards
Erik



Quote from: Phil Indeblanc
I am surprised John Sheehy or Graemes Natress have not chimed in....?  

All they did was blow some smoke and disapear, with ZERO images to even help their posts. Maybe they are at the drawng board to post some true test images?

And I don't mean it in a negative way...but I hate posts that are so one sided and convinced and there is Little or misguided or even ZERO backup to the claim.  So pardon my reactions.

They can easily shut me up, and the others with posting what they find....maybe they just posted textbook/something they read or studied...not experience.

That example of the doctor med percription analogy was very good, I can relate :-)

I hope I am wrong, but the last post with pictures makes lots of sense...  4.6 vs 15.1 WOW...it is a wow for me.

Maybe I need to find someone with a A900 or D3x file so it can go up against the MFdB?   I would love to see a SIDE by SIDE RAW file of these 2.  I know there was a HOT debate in the MF forum doing a overall comparison...but I dont think on such a specifc area.
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Erik Kaffehr
 
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