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Author Topic: Harman Inkjet Gloss FB AL  (Read 51248 times)

Wanderer

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Harman Inkjet Gloss FB AL
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2007, 05:27:19 pm »

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Wanderer and All,

I made my prints on an Epson 3800 printer using K3 inks. I started with the QTR RGB Photo Paper profile. Once in QTR, I loaded these pre-made curves, that came with the software:...


One last thought—I would not have learned what I learned- if I had plugged someone else’s numbers into QTR. I hope I have given you and others a good starting point.

Best,

Richard Lohmann
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=139460\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Richard,

Thank you for your response.  I hope to work on this at the weekend.  I appreciate your last comment but tips do help.  I spent a whole day last week chasing my tail, and gave up, but this was on a different paper and printer.  While learning QTR, experimentation on Harman glossy and the r3800 is too expensive now I am not earning!

With sincere thanks,

Wanderer
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neil snape

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Harman Inkjet Gloss FB AL
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2007, 12:49:09 am »

What an excellent report on this paper.
There is only one small mistake, which is Richard says Z2100 and 3100 have Gloss Enhancer. It is only the Z3100 that does.
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2007, 04:49:50 am »

Are we close to a list of FB papers, Baryta (Barite) or Titanium Dioxide, matte, satin, gloss, and the way they behave on several printers ?  Not an invitation for someone to try out all the papers available but a summary of collective experience could be made.

The manufacturers so far mentioned are correct ? > Hahnemuhle, Crane, Harman, Ilford, Sihl, Innova, Oriental, PremierArt, Moab, Ink Press, Lyson, ....

Without doubt some will be rebranded and it would be nice to know which ones.

Andrew Darlow has written on the subject:

http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/cp/olympus/te...t_id=1003563026

Royce Bair:

http://www.inkjetbuzz.com/tips/2007-01-26.html


I will try to get some Sihl paper.


Ernst Dinkla

try:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 04:51:15 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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neil snape

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« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2007, 05:07:22 am »

The bigger problem for us , users of the Z3100 is still the problem of pizza wheel marks on the surface of most Fibre types. See another post here , HP have a prototype wheel assembly ready for someone. How nice of them to keep us informed....
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John R Smith

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« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2007, 06:01:32 am »

The question of print life and archival properties is the big unknown for all of these new gloss papers, whatever the manufacturer. None of the third-party paper vendors have submitted samples to the Wilhelm labs, as far as I know, and you can understand why - the papers would have to be tested with inks from all the printer manufacturers to have any validity, and the costs would be prohibitive.

So all that we can say for any of these fibre-base gloss papers for the moment is whether or not we like their aesthetic qualities, when used on the printer and inkset we currently own. But I have to say that I have serious concerns about selling such prints as fine art, in the absence of any independent assessment of their anticipated display life.

John
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neil snape

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« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2007, 06:30:29 am »

Actually all the better paper makers test their own media. Might not be to the procedures WIR recommends and are trying to standardise, but none the less test the paper for lightfastness, humidity problems etc. Be aware that a lot of the paper available is spec'd by the resellers but made under one roof. It's the manufacturer of the paper who do the testing. Ernst is more up on who exactly makes the paper for which brands.
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2007, 06:35:07 am »

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The question of print life and archival properties is the big unknown for all of these new gloss papers, whatever the manufacturer. None of the third-party paper vendors have submitted samples to the Wilhelm labs, as far as I know, and you can understand why - the papers would have to be tested with inks from all the printer manufacturers to have any validity, and the costs would be prohibitive.

So all that we can say for any of these fibre-base gloss papers for the moment is whether or not we like their aesthetic qualities, when used on the printer and inkset we currently own. But I have to say that I have serious concerns about selling such prints as fine art, in the absence of any independent assessment of their anticipated display life.

John
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

True. The use of barite as a whitener in inkjet paper is another factor that hasn't been tested independently so far. That it has a proven history in B&W analogue paper doesn't tell all. Pigment inks are less dependend on the coating quality than dyes but you have a point here, we do not know what the inks and barite + other additives needed to use barite do to print life. With the TiO2 coatings on FB papers I'm less concerned as that's a more common combination tested already in other coatings on both RC based and matte art papers etc. The FB print texture is different but that can be achieved with other gelatine/PVA properties and coating methods. The underlying substrate is rag or alpha cellulose what I see in the specs. Both when acid free and calcium buffered will not influence the archival properties.

Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2007, 07:01:01 am »

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The bigger problem for us , users of the Z3100 is still the problem of pizza wheel marks on the surface of most Fibre types. See another post here , HP have a prototype wheel assembly ready for someone. How nice of them to keep us informed....
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It must be possible for HP to change the transport pressure rollers to give them a softer surface. The Epson 10000 rollers are actually smaller and have that softer surface. The pizza wheels are less of a problem in my opinion and it applies to more manufacturer models, Epson has a history of models that needed adaptions by the user, up to recent desktop models. As long as I see the marks of the rollers on FB I'm not going to solve the pizza wheel issue on the Z3100 :-) Actually I have not seen that last problem but once with the GE on.


Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2007, 09:59:05 am »

I just finished printing a show series up on it and it is phenomenal.  I originally reported NO gloss differential, but will modify that to very slight GD in the lower tonal regions --- so present, but not really significant.

The other point I'll hammer home is I printed this entire series using only my custom color profile on my 3800 -- and 3/4 of the series is monotone!  Anyway, I am getting WYSIYG output (or as close as digital printers ever get to that) that bowls me over. The results are staggering and oh so simple...

Digital printing Nirvana

Cheers,
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John R Smith

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« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2007, 10:57:12 am »

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Actually all the better paper makers test their own media. Might not be to the procedures WIR recommends and are trying to standardise, but none the less test the paper for lightfastness, humidity problems etc. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140132\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, I can't say this exactly reassures me. One pack of fibre base paper I have states on the box that is "Museum and Conservation Grade" and approved by the "Fine Art Guild" (whoever they are). This particular paper has produced the worst curl and paper base yellowing results of any media in my recent home-brewed tests.

John
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neil snape

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« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2007, 11:17:04 am »

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Well, I can't say this exactly reassures me. One pack of fibre base paper I have states on the box that is "Museum and Conservation Grade" and approved by the "Fine Art Guild" (whoever they are). This particular paper has produced the worst curl and paper base yellowing results of any media in my recent home-brewed tests.

John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140176\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ouch!
It would be nice if WIR could test all the media at least on the de-facto standard printer.
Never heard of the Guild above either.
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2007, 11:47:51 am »

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Well, I can't say this exactly reassures me. One pack of fibre base paper I have states on the box that is "Museum and Conservation Grade" and approved by the "Fine Art Guild" (whoever they are). This particular paper has produced the worst curl and paper base yellowing results of any media in my recent home-brewed tests.

John
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Fine Art Guild

[a href=\"http://www.fineart.co.uk/Printstandards.asp]http://www.fineart.co.uk/Printstandards.asp[/url]

A bit of UK folklore. With a long history and I guess for traditional printing it must have some experience. The first time I heard about them was when His Royal Highness T.P.o.W. signed some offset prints to be sold as art and their complaints were in the international press. He knows more what is right in architecture I guess.



Ernst Dinkla

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russell a

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« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2007, 07:32:57 pm »

Well, I must say that I was rather cynical (my customary stance) about the "glossy" reviews of this paper.  I have seen this community chase a number of new papers like the new girl/guy in town, only to report that their infatuation faded faster than [insert simile of your choice]*.  But, based on Michael's pithy phrase to the effect of "this is the one we were waiting for", I ordered 15 sheets, downloaded the profile from Harmon for my Epson 7600 and waited.  The paper came today and I cranked up my printer.  Well, I'm impressed.  For both color and B&W the look is very traditional/authentic.  I've already put in an order for more.  The next test, which will be interesting, will be to spring some prints on people I know who have been looking down their noses at digital prints and assuming that their perception of the difference is a fatal and terminal flaw.  


* Oh, since this is "Speak Like A Pirate Day" I'll contribute "like a keel-hauled landlubber"
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jpgentry

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« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2007, 12:01:54 pm »

Alot of the comments in this thread leave out the printer used as if we can guess.  Anytime you talk about paper and results/opinions you must tell us what type of printer you are using as the ink/paper interaction are linked.

Regarding scratch marks it would be most helpful for someone to throw this paper at the HP/Epson/Canon inks and let us know if the paper is fragile on all printers or only the HP which it has been most complained about.

Anyone who has used the paper on the Canon and Epson care to comment on how easily it scratches?

Also is the consensus that HP (3100) has the most fragile ink on all papers as compared to Canon and Epson ink?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 12:03:12 pm by jpgentry »
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2007, 01:13:52 pm »

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Alot of the comments in this thread leave out the printer used as if we can guess.  Anytime you talk about paper and results/opinions you must tell us what type of printer you are using as the ink/paper interaction are linked.

Regarding scratch marks it would be most helpful for someone to throw this paper at the HP/Epson/Canon inks and let us know if the paper is fragile on all printers or only the HP which it has been most complained about.

Anyone who has used the paper on the Canon and Epson care to comment on how easily it scratches?

Also is the consensus that HP (3100) has the most fragile ink on all papers as compared to Canon and Epson ink?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140713\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good point.

I printed with a 3800 (and said that), no roller tracks or weirdness in printing OTHER than needing to set a thicker paper and wider platten gap as originally indicated.  

I showed several images form a series doen on it to a group yesterday and it held together just fine; no scratches, marks, no nuthin...

Cheers,
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Mark_Tuttle

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« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2007, 01:14:34 pm »

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Anyone who has used the paper on the Canon and Epson care to comment on how easily it scratches?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=140713\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


  I have not had any issues with the Epson 4800 with the platten set to wide when printing sizes 8.5x11 or 13x19.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 01:14:55 pm by Mark_Tuttle »
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2007, 02:37:56 pm »

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Also is the consensus that HP (3100) has the most fragile ink on all papers as compared to Canon and Epson ink?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

On what is that opinion based ?  

What I read and experience is that the FB paper coatings are delicate and the HP transport mechanism too rough for them. Has nothing to do with the ink.


Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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rgs

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« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2007, 07:41:13 pm »

Is this paper's surface like an air dried fiber based glossy print or more like one that was dried on a ferotype tin? I really miss the low sheen of air dried glossy paper and I don't like the mirror surface gloss that is so common in RC papers, either ink jet or wet process.

Also, has anyone tried Harman paper with a dye printer? If so, would you recommend it for dye printers?

Thanks
RGS
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haefnerphoto

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« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2007, 07:53:07 pm »

I use the paper with the Canon Pro9000.  It is the closest look to "air dried" F surface paper yet to be used in an inkjet printer.  It has a good weight and doesn't curl like the Moab does (which has been taken off the market).  I've been working with a profile supplied by Harman with some success.  I need to refine the profile in the Canon drivers a bit.  Right now it lacks a little contrast and has some difficulty in reproducing saturated reds and magentas.  The paper also needs a couple of hours to "cure", it's changes substantially from the time of printing to a dry print.  Cost is high but I think as similiar papers come to the market that should go down.  They are definitely on the right track.  Jim
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Josh-H

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« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2007, 08:03:14 pm »

I am going to be printing with the new Harman paper on the Canon Pixma Pro 9500 - which is virtually the scaled down version of the 5000 - it uses the same Lucia pigment -2 10 instead of 12]

There are no profiles on Harmans website for either the 9500 or the 5000. So I was going to get DigitalDog to make me one.

How are the results printing on the 9500 / 5000?
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