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Author Topic: Valid MF criticism or not?  (Read 119409 times)

paul_jones

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Valid MF criticism or not?
« Reply #160 on: September 06, 2007, 03:59:53 pm »

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that would be good to see andrei. please use a 85 1.2 at 1.2 as a fair comparison to the rz67/a75/110 2.8 at 2.8.

i like the look of that fast rz lens. i just dont the look of my 100 2.2 hc.

i make no bones about the quality of medium format backs- but mainly because of the strength of the tone and colours of the files, not nessarly the sharpness (i use a p25- 22 mp). the canon just needs a little careful sharpening to keep up.

cheers paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137642\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

ive found my 85 1.2 pretty sharp at 1.2 in the center, it just has a slight difusion blur over the top of the sharp detail (does that make sense?). its starts going by 1.4.

by closing the lenses down will only test the sharpness (which med format will win), but we are talking about the look of the two. the "3d ness" ( imo) is due to the small depth of feild that that the format/lens can produce.


paul
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AndreNapier

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« Reply #161 on: September 06, 2007, 05:55:23 pm »

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The 85/1.2 is not particularly sharp at f1.2. Might be better at f2. Theoretically DoF should be closer at f2.

I can't find any MTF charts for the Z110/2.8. Is this a lens that is almost as sharp wide open as at f8?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137662\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Cropped from the image above:
110mm at 2.8 ISO 200
Judge for yourself
[attachment=3185:attachment]
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #162 on: September 06, 2007, 06:22:56 pm »

Ok here's my try:

1.


2.


3.


4.


Especially the last one, DOF is just wonderful here, 105-210 wide open.

MvrGr.
Frank
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eronald

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« Reply #163 on: September 06, 2007, 06:26:58 pm »

Frank -

I'm signing up for one of your workshops as soon as my back gets delivered.
And then I'll have to figure out how to do the same thing without flash

Edmund
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #164 on: September 06, 2007, 06:34:45 pm »

We have just arranged all the models for the 27-28 October in LA.
It will be GREAT fun
Hope to see alot of people there of course.

If you want to visit please mail me.
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Ray

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« Reply #165 on: September 06, 2007, 08:35:08 pm »

Quote
ive found my 85 1.2 pretty sharp at 1.2 in the center, it just has a slight difusion blur over the top of the sharp detail (does that make sense?).[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137752\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes. That's a euphemistic way of saying 'not sharp'   . It's not sharp, but hey! I like it. My lens has become a 'soft focus' lens; ideal for portraiture and keeping those skin blemishes down.

There has been a lot of discussion of DoF issues on this forum over the years, some folks insisting that DoF is affected only by the FL of the lens, aperture and distance to the subject. My own view is that it is also affected by the sharpness of the lens at the plane of focus and this factor is very difficult to incorporate into the DoF formulas.

For example, the 85/1.2 at f2 on 35mm should have the same DoF as the Z110/2.8 at f2.8 on the Aptus 75 (at same distance to subject). The background blur should be very similar in both cases, allowing for differences in bokeh between the two lenses. However, if the Z110 is as sharp or sharper at f2.8 (MTF wise) as the Canon 85/1.2 at f2, then the shot from the 33mp Leaf with a 48x36mm sensor will be perceptibly sharper at the plane of focus.

The backgrounds of both shots should be equally blurred, but the points of focus will be sharper in the MF shot, hence a sense of greater 3-dimensionality. Stopping up with the Canon lens to f1.4 or f1.2 will not solve the problem. The background will then become more out-of-focus and more unrecognisable and the plane of focus will also become more blurred due to the lower MTF of the lens at wider apertures.
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Ray

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« Reply #166 on: September 06, 2007, 09:15:14 pm »

Quote
Especially the last one, DOF is just wonderful here, 105-210 wide open.

MvrGr.
Frank
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137778\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Lovely shot! The question probably arises as to whether or not the lady on the road is wearing any knickers. However, the blurred foreground and enlarged white marker tend to distract the eye from that critical part of the lady's anatomy. Very tasteful! You are a true gentleman, Frank   .
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Ray

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« Reply #167 on: September 06, 2007, 09:27:33 pm »

By the way, the old Photodo MTF tests of MF lenses reveal that it's quite common for some of the better MF lenses (with a rating above 4) to have nearly as good performance at full aperture as at f8. But this is a very rare phenomenom with Canon lenses. One Canon lens that appears to be an exception is the EF 400mm f2.8L II (the non-IS version) which appears to have better performance at full aperture than at f8.
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Ray

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« Reply #168 on: September 06, 2007, 09:49:22 pm »

Quote
Cropped from the image above:
110mm at 2.8 ISO 200
Judge for yourself
[attachment=3185:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137773\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Andre,
Looks reasonably sharp but I see jpeg artifacts here. I take it this is not a 100% crop of a RAW conversion with maximum quality jpeg compression?
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joern_kiel

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« Reply #169 on: September 06, 2007, 10:06:22 pm »

I just did nearly the same post processing to the Canon 1Ds III sample file as i would do to my own 1Ds II files to correct the colors for my taste.

http://www.atelier-kiel.de/down/portrait_mod_jk.jpg

The Canon 1Ds is a workhorse for nearly every photographic situation. I don´t love this camera but i know what i can get from after developing a workflow and fine tune it from job to job. From super wide to close ups, from tilt/shift to extreme tele this system has many options. The key for me is post production. I never sold a pict without editing in PS. As long as i am not specialized in one category i need a universal system.

I have sold my Contax 645/P25 combo after my clients did not recognize the difference to the Canon in print and never looked back. Instead i bought the Leica M8 with a couple of lenses and THIS camera rocks. A small camera with some issues but it surprises me every time i use it.

Back to the posted image. I did some quick color adjustment and some sharpening with two third party plugins. It could be done better with a calibrated/profiled raw file or 16bit tif. But for me it looks much better then the original file. What do you think?


Cheers
jørn
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Ray

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« Reply #170 on: September 07, 2007, 03:27:46 am »

Well, now that Joern has given us a processed version of that laughably amateurish sample image from the 1Ds3 on Canon's website, removing the aberrations on the pearls and correcting the slightly greenish color cast, we are now in a position to do a comparison between the Leaf Aptus 75 with Z110/2.8 lens (Andre's image), and the 1Ds3 with 85/1.2 lens at f1.8.

Since the aspect ratio of the Aptus image is different to 35mm, I took the liberty of cropping the width to 2:3 aspect ratio. This reduces the effective 33mp size of the Aptus image somewhat but tips the advantage in favour of the Aptus with regard to subject size within the frame.

For those who demand complete precision, the distance between the outer edges of the models' eyes in the cropped Aptus frame is 16/87ths of the width of the frame. In the 1Ds3 shot it's just over 11/87ths of the width of the frame. Perhaps I shoud have cropped the height of the 35mm image instead, but as you can see from the following 'maximum quality jpeg' 100% crops (assuming that's what Andre gave us), the 1Ds3 appears to be at least as sharp.

[attachment=3186:attachment]  [attachment=3187:attachment]
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #171 on: September 07, 2007, 03:33:22 am »

With all respect to napier but his shot looks slightly oversharpned (I'm very very sorry I did not mean it with disrespect).



This is a 100% crop straight out of the camera.



This is the Leaf aptus 22
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Ray

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« Reply #172 on: September 07, 2007, 03:50:28 am »

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With all respect to napier but his shot looks slightly oversharpned (I'm very very sorry I did not mean it with disrespect)..........

This is the Leaf aptus 22
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137831\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What a stunning close-up of an eye. Which lens, Frank? Judging by the fact that the pores of the skin around the region of the eye appear slightly out-of-focus this must have been a fast lens with excellent performance at wide apertures.
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samuel_js

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« Reply #173 on: September 07, 2007, 04:13:24 am »

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With all respect to napier but his shot looks slightly oversharpned (I'm very very sorry I did not mean it with disrespect).



This is a 100% crop straight out of the camera.



This is the Leaf aptus 22
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137831\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is what I've been talking about the hole thread. And still, we will keep hearing that MF isn't any better than Canon, and that the advantages are minimal. Well, I'd like to se someone posting a Canon sample like this one ...
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Willow Photography

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« Reply #174 on: September 07, 2007, 04:14:43 am »

Shooting a models face only, you will not see difference between a good DSLR and a MFD.
Shooting full figure - you will see a difference.
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samuel_js

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« Reply #175 on: September 07, 2007, 04:20:48 am »

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but as you can see from the following 'maximum quality jpeg' 100% crops (assuming that's what Andre gave us), the 1Ds3 appears to be at least as sharp.

[attachment=3186:attachment]  [attachment=3187:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137830\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, but the canon has no detail in the skin, specialy the forehead... not mention to the color...

Time for me to retire from this thread I think... It's Friday...
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juicy

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« Reply #176 on: September 07, 2007, 04:27:41 am »

Hi!

Thanks for all of you sharing these fine images.

Question to Mr Doorhof: what does
Quote
a 100% crop straight out of the camera
mean? It seems it has at least some sharpening applied? Well, anyway it doesn't exactly look like coming out of a ps-camera!  

Cheers,
J
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sundstei

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« Reply #177 on: September 07, 2007, 04:37:18 am »

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Yes, but the canon has no detail in the skin, specialy the forehead... not mention to the color...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137839\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Because its out of focus....
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sundstei

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« Reply #178 on: September 07, 2007, 04:55:09 am »

Quote
[attachment=3186:attachment]  [attachment=3187:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137830\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Looking at the two photos next to each other i cant help still saying that the Canon shot looks beautiful and with nice tones. It has a smooth "film-like" look to it. The other photo looks very "digital". No disrespect to Andre.

I am just commenting on what they look like, irrelevant of the reason behind (f-stop, format, lenses, technical issues, etc).
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #179 on: September 07, 2007, 05:58:23 am »

I believe there is a smart sharpen from 75 on 0.9 but I don't remember exactly.

The files from the back itself are razorsharp.

Lens is the 120mm macro.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 05:59:01 am by Frank Doorhof »
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