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Author Topic: Valid MF criticism or not?  (Read 119208 times)

sundstei

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Valid MF criticism or not?
« Reply #120 on: September 04, 2007, 06:20:51 pm »

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It's not a placebo I'm afraid.
I saw the effect on the Hasselblad a while ago and have been trying to emulate the effect with my 5D and a 1DsII for almost 5 months and what ever I tried it was impossible, you can get a very nice 3D effect when EVERY element is carefully planned but when I made the switch to MF it was right on the money every shot.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137167\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am sorry Frank. I am not going to critique the photos, but I just dont see any "3D" effect in them.

I used to be a 6x7 shooter with fastest Pentax lenses, and 645 is a "mini"-medium format for me. There just isnt that big a difference between it and the 35mm fullframe.

I shoot the H1/A75 combo because its the camera that fits my style and needs the best. If its printed in A4 there is basically no difference if I do it with 1Ds2 or H1.

Svein Erik
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samuel_js

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« Reply #121 on: September 04, 2007, 06:54:08 pm »

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There's a lot of talk and anecdotal claims, but little evidence. The examples posted are indeed striking, but without comparable shots with 35mm the critique is of the photography, lighting, post-processing, etc., not about MFDB vs. dSLR. I've seen similar impressive "3D-look" MFDB shots posted here and elsewhere, and am inclined to believe that "better" photos can be bought along with an MFDB system.
Even I tend to correctly spot the MFDB shots even on web resolution resamples, and I'm an amateur shooting a prosumer dSLR. But I have a creeping feeling that the reason why the MFDB shots jump out is - at least partly - due to the fact that those who shoot with them generally have access to nice studios, make-up artists, hairdressers, wardrobe and lighting, and know how to use their equipment. So, in the end, how much of the end result is the back, how much everything else?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just a few examples, there are three Hasselblad 503, one H1 and two rollei 6008.



















I don't think I'll find a way to explain it. If you don't see it you don't see it...
No make up or expensive lights of any kind. You just need an artistic vision of the image. I'd never try this kind of images with a 35mm because I know it won't happend. There's also no afterprocessing...
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RobertJ

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« Reply #122 on: September 04, 2007, 07:55:03 pm »

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Of course they're not playing. Just look at the famous Canon Mark III sample image:
http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos1dsm3/...3_sample-e.html
Everyone owning a DB will laught at this image.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136448\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Oh please.
You should know by now that every "sample" file from Canon has been a disaster.

Have you ever seen the 5D sample files?  Just horrible.  But guess what?  It turned out to be everyone's favorite DSLR, and the DSLR that Michael uses as a benchmark for DSLR image quality.  An incredible camera.

The 1Ds3 sample file is taken at f/1.8.  Probably not processed correctly.  Good lord, I can only imagine a portrait taken with the 135L or 100 macro at f/4 processed in C1.

Oh by the way, the Phase One sample files were also incredibly awful, so your Canon bashing isn't really justified by your amusement with how a sample file looks.
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samuel_js

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« Reply #123 on: September 04, 2007, 08:12:56 pm »

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Oh please.
You should know by now that every "sample" file from Canon has been a disaster.

Have you ever seen the 5D sample files?  Just horrible.  But guess what?  It turned out to be everyone's favorite DSLR, and the DSLR that Michael uses as a benchmark for DSLR image quality.  An incredible camera.

The 1Ds3 sample file is taken at f/1.8.  Probably not processed correctly.  Good lord, I can only imagine a portrait taken with the 135L or 100 macro at f/4 processed in C1.

Oh by the way, the Phase One sample files were also incredibly awful, so your Canon bashing isn't really justified by your amusement with how a sample file looks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137352\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not bashing Canon. I'm just saying it's not comparable to medium format. That's all.
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paul_jones

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« Reply #124 on: September 04, 2007, 09:34:59 pm »

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I'm not bashing Canon. I'm just saying it's not comparable to medium format. That's all.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137355\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


i own both canon and medium format. have a look at my website -www.pauljonesimages.com(its sa bit slow to download), a quarter of my shots are shot with medium format, can you pick any out?

ive tested this out with a friend of mine, they couldnt.

i bet you cant (dont cheat and use exif data!). and i shoot some stuff with the tiny dof as well.

paul
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RobertJ

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« Reply #125 on: September 04, 2007, 10:22:25 pm »

Oh it's definitely "comparable."  It's absolutely "comparable," I'm sorry to say.
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Ray

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« Reply #126 on: September 04, 2007, 11:38:18 pm »

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I don't think I'll find a way to explain it. If you don't see it you don't see it...
No make up or expensive lights of any kind. You just need an artistic vision of the image. I'd never try this kind of images with a 35mm because I know it won't happend. There's also no afterprocessing...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137345\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Samuel,
Feppe is right. If you don't show the same shots with 35mm, adjusting FL and aperture so DoF is the same, then of course we can't see it.

Whilst I recognise that some of these examples are very interesting and very artistic, superb lighting and tonality etc, they don't really answer the question.

I'm reminded of questions about 35mm lens performance. Is the Canon EF 300/f4 IS as sharp as the non-IS version. Someone answers by posting an image from the IS version that looks remarkably sharp. Doesn't really answer the question.
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dkeyes

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« Reply #127 on: September 05, 2007, 03:02:38 am »

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Trust me, I have done the double-blind taste test, comparing 1ds2, 5D, P25, P45, and there's not a nickel's worth of difference in them. Especially if you're taking them to CMYK reproduction, or outputting to some shitty Epson printer. Epson and CMYK are, like someone else said, "The Great Levelers".

All this talk is mullarkey. Just buy a camera and use it every single day of the week, and really get to know it, and really process the files. I have shot a million jobs with Canon, and a million jobs with Phase; there's not an ounce of difference in them, (except that Canon is faster and easier to use, and easier to hit good color with).

If you're a product guy or architectural guy or a landscape guy, buy a P45 or an A75 and be done with it. If you're a Lifestyle guy, buy the new Canon and be done with it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137287\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And if your an artist shooting outside the studio, buy a MF like the MamiyaZD. BTW, just like cameras, there are levels of quality in the output. Not all are shitty. Some of the best if not the best output you will ever get is with an Epson or HP or Canon inkjet. Likewise, I've seen printing presses with 200+ lpi that produce photoprint quality images. But I agree, for the majority of "hi-end" photo work, the quality of the various formats are equalized/brought down to the same level in the final printed or displayed image.

On a side note, I found it humorous that someone on this thread mentioned that they've even done billboards and the images looked great. If you've ever looked at a billboard image up close (as a designer, I've seen plenty), it's the lowest resolution image one can print. Maybe 30-40 lpi. When looking at any image from 100's of feet away, it's going to resolve into a reasonably decent image (assuming it was that to start with).
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rainer_v

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« Reply #128 on: September 05, 2007, 04:55:19 am »

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i own both canon and medium format. have a look at my website -www.pauljonesimages.com(its sa bit slow to download), a quarter of my shots are shot with medium format, can you pick any out?

ive tested this out with a friend of mine, they couldnt.

i bet you cant (dont cheat and use exif data!). and i shoot some stuff with the tiny dof as well.

paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137363\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

thats a nice idea. i am going to participate.
go to my website, there you find 4x5" drumscanned film, as well as 22 + 33 Mp shots
with the best lenses, as well as canon and kodak 35mm digital shots, several of them stitched.
which is shot with which camera?
i am looking forward to see the results.
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Camdavidson

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« Reply #129 on: September 05, 2007, 06:14:26 am »

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I'm sorry Mark, the problem is that YOU don't see it. For me (and others) the difference is very clear.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137332\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I once learned a very important lesson as a young photographer.  

My very first picture editor at a widely respected magazine gave me this advice when I was twenty-three years old.

"Always leave your ego at the door" and  "Always know who you are talking to."



I'd suggest that you may want to reconsider your comments directed to Mark Tucker.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 06:21:52 am by Camdavidson »
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Mark_Tucker

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« Reply #130 on: September 05, 2007, 06:54:41 am »

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"Always leave your ego at the door" and  "Always know who you are talking to."
I'd suggest that you may want to reconsider your comments

That's good advice to live by, but hey, we're just talking here. Nothing serious. Everyone here has a right to their own opinion. I try to always put a disclaimer on my notes that says, "Hey this is just my opinion. It might not apply to your style of work". I think everybody ought to do that, especially when they make blanket statements like "this camera is the best" or "this technique is the best".

I also think, in this particular thread, that we might be talking about two or three different things:

* Resolution, between MF and 35.
* Spacialocity, (which is my word by the way), about the optical spacialocityness between MF and 35.
* Mojo-ness, which is closely related to Spacialocity.

It's important that it stay clear what we're talking about.

My garage tests, regarding RESOLUTION, showed that the 1ds2 and the 5D, with proper SmartSharpening or USM, could clearly hold their own with the Phase backs. (The only one that they can't run with is the P45, which is just a monster of tight resolution and detail).

But then again, the P45 is somewhat limited to what you can do with it, due to slow recycle, especially when shooting tethered. I found it very frustrating to shoot PEOPLE with; it simply couldn't keep up, due to the amount of data transmitted. (I shoot People, so every comment I make is related to shooting People).

I also find the whole B.S. Factor, (my word too), of MF compared to 35, to be much larger. More gear, more heavy, not as elegant a design, multiple battery chargers, etc. The Canon is just EASY. I told a friend the other day: I could buy the 1ds3, the 50 1.2, the 85 1.2, and the 35 1.4, and just be DONE with it. Two bodies, three lenses, throw them in a bag, walk on the plane -- super light, super easy. That is very tempting.

If Canon truly does make the viewfinder larger, this time around, and the LCD is as nice as its reported to be, and they calmed down the AA Filter on it, and the USB cord doesn't fall out of the side of the body when you tether with it, then Canon 1ds3 is certainly going to make a potential MF customer think twice. I've long felt -- Hasselblad doesn't need to be afraid of Phase or Sinar; they need to be afraid of CANON. Canon is the one that'll take them all down, even with that funky 24x36 shape. It's just THAT easy to work with, and the files are THAT good.

Again, related to Spacialocity, yeah, you might get a little more mojo with 645 over 35, but still, it's not going to get that Magical Feeling until you get to 4x5, and there are no digital options for that, (for shooting people). So, if that's the case, 35 and MF, they're both the same -- just take your pick. No difference.

To get a taste of space, check out Richard Renaldi or Alec Soth, both shooting 8x10. If you want some Liquid Love, just shoot a few sheets of that. Sweet, like no other.

http://www.renaldi.com/

http://www.alecsoth.com/

or Nicholas Nixon, or Sally Mann.

8x10 is what separates the men from the boys. (But again, we're talking about Personal Work, here, not Commercial Money Tethering). It's important here too, to make that distinction.

Just one opinion. Anyone might not agree, (and that's just fine). The important thing is TEST FOR YOURSELF, so you know inside your own gut.
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Dustbak

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« Reply #131 on: September 05, 2007, 07:41:34 am »

8x10 is indeed still sort of the holy grail. I find it very hard to distinguish images on tiny weeny web resolution. Having said that, the scanned 8x10 images I see from time to time from various people are always really interesting even on the web.

For commercial tethered work it would not be my primary choice either

I would like to introduce another great equalizer next to CMYK, the Internet. It is becoming very hard to distinguish images taken with various formats at such extremely low resolutions.

Ah well. I guess everyone has his or her reasons to choose for a specific solution. I for one am very glad I work digital MF. I like the slower work pace, the fact it forces me to think more about what I am doing. For the same reasons I only work with primes (no matter what format I am using). My current system is on the verge of being unusable commercially but I can cope with it. When I would be using a 10FPS system and some clients find out, I fear they will make me work twice as hard  

It is nice to see so many different opinions and find out how other people are thinking about what works and what not.

Pinhole is another thing I see a lot of people turning to lately. Either with 4x5, 8x10 or MFDB. I see some really beautiful images now and than.

Sometimes that high-end scanner is starting to become really appealing
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 07:44:46 am by Dustbak »
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jjj

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« Reply #132 on: September 05, 2007, 09:37:16 am »

Quote
The frustrating thing about threads like this is we just don't get any direct comparisons demonstrating the superior qualities of MFDBs, where each shot in the comparison has been expertly processed without bias and in accordance with the best methodology and practice for the respective formats.

It would be very strange if a large-photosite, 39mp image were not superior in some way to a small-photosite, 16mp or even 22mp image.

But it would be interesting to see just how significant the differences are, at base ISO. At high ISO I guess there would be no contest. The Canon would blow the MFDB out of the water   .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136671\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I used a H3-39 recently and the light simply vanished as I went to take my shot.
So I had to shoot at 400ISO and the results were to be frank, awful. Blotchy and nasty looking. Not what I expect off a £20,000 camera. At all.  
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jjj

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« Reply #133 on: September 05, 2007, 09:50:06 am »

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wouldn't it be great to have a real jpg preview as clear as on the canon camera?? so you can actually judge your exposure and shadows on the model face....I would pay for this!)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=136837\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Oh and the LCD preview on the 39M back was worse than on a Ixus 2.1m camera I used 5yrs ago.
I spoke to someone on a Hasselblad stand a couple of years ago about the shocking image quality on the LCD and was given some marketing BS, which was complete nonsense. Not a good way to talk to customers who will need to invest a lot of money on your kit.

Oh and as an aside, some of the most popular images in my [A3] portfolio were taken on that Ixus.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 09:53:30 am by jjj »
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samuel_js

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« Reply #134 on: September 05, 2007, 10:08:05 am »

Quote
I once learned a very important lesson as a young photographer. 

My very first picture editor at a widely respected magazine gave me this advice when I was twenty-three years old.

"Always leave your ego at the door" and  "Always know who you are talking to."
I'd suggest that you may want to reconsider your comments directed to Mark Tucker.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137419\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

One thing you didn't learn is to keep your nose near your body, if you know what I mean...

Maybe I'll start using icons to express my opinions more acurately. As Mark says: "We're just talking  here", and if I have to say something to him to to anyone here I will if I need to. I don't have any problems communicating with people and I don't have any problems talking at different (volume) levels.... Don't be so sensitive
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rainer_v

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« Reply #135 on: September 05, 2007, 10:32:24 am »

Quote
Oh and the LCD preview on the 39M back was worse than on a Ixus 2.1m camera I used 5yrs ago.
I spoke to someone on a Hasselblad stand a couple of years ago about the shocking image quality on the LCD and was given some marketing BS, which was complete nonsense. Not a good way to talk to customers who will need to invest a lot of money on your kit.

Oh and as an aside, some of the most popular images in my [A3] portfolio were taken on that Ixus.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

your link doesnt work.
its:
[a href=\"http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com/]http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com/[/url]

nice images, nice page.....
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rainer viertlböck
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samuel_js

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« Reply #136 on: September 05, 2007, 10:43:49 am »

Guys, I'm not triying to convince you. Of course is very difficult to see the format used to take a certain image. What I'm talking about is a personal experience I supose. It's the way I see my photographs that makes me choose MF. I normally have a "preview" in my mind before I take the picture. Sometimes, when I was using my 1Ds this feelig of getting what I was imaging was very close. The images were very real to a point and I was pleased with the results, but, when comparing the to the MF I saw that there was something more, like another dimension. I supose this "dimension" it's only a small step between "almost there" and the image I was waiting for.
I never do too much retouching or processing to my images so maybe I'm more demanding and want better impression from the beginning.




Quote
i own both canon and medium format. have a look at my website -www.pauljonesimages.com(its sa bit slow to download), a quarter of my shots are shot with medium format, can you pick any out?

ive tested this out with a friend of mine, they couldnt.

i bet you cant (dont cheat and use exif data!). and i shoot some stuff with the tiny dof as well.

paul
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Quote
thats a nice idea. i am going to participate.
go to my website, there you find 4x5" drumscanned film, as well as 22 + 33 Mp shots
with the best lenses, as well as canon and kodak 35mm digital shots, several of them stitched.
which is shot with which camera?
i am looking forward to see the results.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137411\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Quote
That's good advice to live by, but hey, we're just talking here. Nothing serious. Everyone here has a right to their own opinion. I try to always put a disclaimer on my notes that says, "Hey this is just my opinion. It might not apply to your style of work". I think everybody ought to do that, especially when they make blanket statements like "this camera is the best" or "this technique is the best".

I also think, in this particular thread, that we might be talking about two or three different things:

* Resolution, between MF and 35.
* Spacialocity, (which is my word by the way), about the optical spacialocityness between MF and 35.
* Mojo-ness, which is closely related to Spacialocity.

It's important that it stay clear what we're talking about.

My garage tests, regarding RESOLUTION, showed that the 1ds2 and the 5D, with proper SmartSharpening or USM, could clearly hold their own with the Phase backs. (The only one that they can't run with is the P45, which is just a monster of tight resolution and detail).

But then again, the P45 is somewhat limited to what you can do with it, due to slow recycle, especially when shooting tethered. I found it very frustrating to shoot PEOPLE with; it simply couldn't keep up, due to the amount of data transmitted. (I shoot People, so every comment I make is related to shooting People).

I also find the whole B.S. Factor, (my word too), of MF compared to 35, to be much larger. More gear, more heavy, not as elegant a design, multiple battery chargers, etc. The Canon is just EASY. I told a friend the other day: I could buy the 1ds3, the 50 1.2, the 85 1.2, and the 35 1.4, and just be DONE with it. Two bodies, three lenses, throw them in a bag, walk on the plane -- super light, super easy. That is very tempting.

If Canon truly does make the viewfinder larger, this time around, and the LCD is as nice as its reported to be, and they calmed down the AA Filter on it, and the USB cord doesn't fall out of the side of the body when you tether with it, then Canon 1ds3 is certainly going to make a potential MF customer think twice. I've long felt -- Hasselblad doesn't need to be afraid of Phase or Sinar; they need to be afraid of CANON. Canon is the one that'll take them all down, even with that funky 24x36 shape. It's just THAT easy to work with, and the files are THAT good.

Again, related to Spacialocity, yeah, you might get a little more mojo with 645 over 35, but still, it's not going to get that Magical Feeling until you get to 4x5, and there are no digital options for that, (for shooting people). So, if that's the case, 35 and MF, they're both the same -- just take your pick. No difference.

To get a taste of space, check out Richard Renaldi or Alec Soth, both shooting 8x10. If you want some Liquid Love, just shoot a few sheets of that. Sweet, like no other.

[a href=\"http://www.renaldi.com/]http://www.renaldi.com/[/url]

http://www.alecsoth.com/

or Nicholas Nixon, or Sally Mann.

8x10 is what separates the men from the boys. (But again, we're talking about Personal Work, here, not Commercial Money Tethering). It's important here too, to make that distinction.

Just one opinion. Anyone might not agree, (and that's just fine). The important thing is TEST FOR YOURSELF, so you know inside your own gut.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137425\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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jjj

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« Reply #137 on: September 05, 2007, 10:44:27 am »

Quote
I'm afraid this debate about the 3D-look of MFDBs starts to sound like how high-end audiophiles' claim their stereo sounds better after they lather speaker cables in organic goat urine. €700 per listening session.
A friend of mine changed the phono leads he got with his [good] stereo to some ones he made from bits bought at Maplin. It made a big, big difference. He didn't tell me what he'd done before asking me. It simply sounded better.
I've also spent time listening to, and auditioning high end hifi and the difference between gear can be amazing. Even when you are comparing £10k systems. If you cannot hear the difference with such things, maybe you should get your ears syringed.


Quote
There's a lot of talk and anecdotal claims, but little evidence. The examples posted are indeed striking, but without comparable shots with 35mm the critique is of the photography, lighting, post-processing, etc., not about MFDB vs. dSLR. I've seen similar impressive "3D-look" MFDB shots posted here and elsewhere, and am inclined to believe that "better" photos can be bought along with an MFDB system.

Even I tend to correctly spot the MFDB shots even on web resolution resamples, and I'm an amateur shooting a prosumer dSLR. But I have a creeping feeling that the reason why the MFDB shots jump out is - at least partly - due to the fact that those who shoot with them generally have access to nice studios, make-up artists, hairdressers, wardrobe and lighting, and know how to use their equipment. So, in the end, how much of the end result is the back, how much everything else?
Your skill as a photographer doesn't alter physics. No matter how good you are.  
Besides I don't think the 2 critters in the shot above needed much makeup!  

Quote
Comparisons are finicky. We are left how to define comparable shots between the two systems. And herein lies the problem: while audiophiles' claims can be easily disproven by a double-blind test,
or proven, which is my experience. Hi-fis can sound enormously diffferent and more expensive is not always better. If one cannot tell the difference, it doesn't mean there is no difference, especially if others can easily discerne a difference.
Personally  I cannot tell whether someone speaking French has say, a Northern or Southern French accent. This is because my French is not good enough. But to a native French such difference are very obvious.

Quote
it's not so easy with cameras. Different lenses, cameras, sensors, etc. just give different results, no matter how much you try to recreate the shot. So, instead of finding which system produces "better" images, the study might devolve into a "spot the MFDB shot."[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And as the point is to tell the difference, it's not an issue that different results are produced. That's the point of having different kit, you simply use the best tool to produce the image that you want from those circumstances.
For me -  35mm sized sensors do the job most of the time. Other times larger formats are better. And a 5D is way different [better in my eyes] than a 20/30/40D as other people above have commented. And a 5D is better than a 1DsIII for my needs a lot of the time as I don't want such a big heavy camera. And even the 5D is a bit big for someone like me, who used to use Olympus OMs. Half the size of a 5D and with a bigger viewfinder.
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jjj

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« Reply #138 on: September 05, 2007, 10:49:17 am »

Quote
your link doesnt work.
its:
http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com/

nice images, nice page.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=137470\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A typo snuck in!   Corrected Now.
Thank you for picking that up and the comments.
cheers jjj
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Camdavidson

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Valid MF criticism or not?
« Reply #139 on: September 05, 2007, 11:17:44 am »

Quote
One thing you didn't learn is to keep your nose near your body, if you know what I mean...

Maybe I'll start using icons to express my opinions more acurately. As Mark says: "We're just talking  here", and if I have to say something to him to to anyone here I will if I need to. I don't have any problems communicating with people and I don't have any problems talking at different (volume) levels.... Don't be so sensitive
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“I know that I am intelligent, because I know that I know nothing.”
 Socrates quotes (Ancient Greek Philosopher, 470 BC-399 BC)
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