P45 and Centerfold

[RicAgu]

Hello All,

I have done a shoot recently with the P45 and the centerfold has appeared on all the shots.  Very visible on the shots with the black background and in the blue sky of other shots.  Shot on an H1 with the 50-110 so there was no movements.

I remember reading hear that Phase had a gain adjustment that had to be done.  I hope this is somehting that is added to the RAW in Post and not some calibration needed pre shoot.

Thanks in Advance

[TorbenEskerod]

xx

[Mort54]

To the best of my knowledge, there is no centerfold issue on the P45. I certainly don't have it on mine, whether I'm processing my images in C1, Lightroom or ACR (I use all three, but by far I prefer Lightroom). It has been associated with the Dalsa sensors, I believe, but not with the Kodak sensors, which all Phase One backs use.

[RicAgu]

I'll upload the image when I get back to the studio.  There is a clear line right down the middle of the sensor.  Not as noticible as the A75, but clearly there.  May be able to load it this evening if tomorrow.

Thanks for the replies

[mtomalty]

It has been associated with the Dalsa sensors, I believe, but not with the Kodak sensors, which all Phase One backs use.

Not completely true.  I've had it appear on a few series of files using a Hasselblad H1 and CF39 which uses a Kodak sensor and on the Leica M8 which also uses a Kodak sensor.

These facts certainly don't help Ric out in any way other than to point out the possibility that
Kodak chips can exhibit the centerfold issue.

Mark

[RicAgu]

attached please find the files of close up screen grabs of the shots.   They show up at 50% and at 100% but do not show up at 66.67%.  Very strange.

I have never seen this on my P25 back ever using C1.  Wierd artifacts have shown up using LR & RD with my P25, but this 45 is giving me issues and I am not happy with it.

I have posted on Phase forum and set up a support case, but of course it is the weekend.

Anyway, please do let me know if anyone has seen these type of lines on Phase One 30MP and up backs?

Thanks,

R

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[G_Allen]

Hello all,

I just did my second shoot with my P30 loaner (waiting for my Plus to arrive), and I see a similar line artifact in every shot from the shoot. The line goes all the way across the image, about 1/8 of the way down from the top of each vertical image. I shot some at ISO 100, then bumped it up to 400 as the light went down...all have the same line. It is a bit more pronounced in the ones shot at 400.

I'm going to do some tests tomorrow. In my first shoot with the P30, and the tests I did before it, the files were perfect. I'm hoping it just had a bad day.

Please see attached screen grabs.

cheers,

Gregory Allen

P.S. These were processed in C1.

[Jae_Moon]

Anyway, please do let me know if anyone has seen these type of lines on Phase One 30MP and up backs?

Thanks,

R


Ric:

I had the centerfold (CF)  shown on very few of my shots with P45/H2/55-110 setup, but only if I process the images with LR. The same images with C1 conversion do produce the centerfold. The centerfold is not from physical stitching of sensors but of maskings.

Phase One will not discuss the CF issues unless you can produce them with C1 conversion, since they are selling DB and C1 as a total solution. So far, I cannot reproduce the CF with C1 conversion.

I am assuming that your images were processed with LR. Try them with C1 and see if the CF still exist.

LCC correction and CF possibility are the reasons why I am still using C1 instead of LR.

Jae Moon

[eronald]

Gregory, you have a defective sensor - this is NOT a "centerfold" issue. Contact Phase One or your dealer.

Edmund

Hello all,

I just did my second shoot with my P30 loaner (waiting for my Plus to arrive), and I see a similar line artifact in every shot from the shoot. The line goes all the way across the image, about 1/8 of the way down from the top of each vertical image. I shot some at ISO 100, then bumped it up to 400 as the light went down...all have the same line. It is a bit more pronounced in the ones shot at 400.

I'm going to do some tests tomorrow. In my first shoot with the P30, and the tests I did before it, the files were perfect. I'm hoping it just had a bad day.

Please see attached screen grabs.

cheers,

Gregory Allen
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[jimgolden]

these all look like corruption lines from back in the drum scan days...
one block of data would be corrupt and would make a line thru the image

[RicAgu]

I only use C1 Pro, I have not been able to get into LR yet.

They don't show up in the file when viewed in C1.  But when I process them out and open them in Photoshop it is clearly there.  But it is not visible at 66.67%.  Wierd.

I'll call Phase tomorrow and see what the deal is.

Anyway, please do let me know if anyone has seen these type of lines on Phase One 30MP and up backs?

Thanks,

R
Ric:

I had the centerfold (CF)  shown on very few of my shots with P45/H2/55-110 setup, but only if I process the images with LR. The same images with C1 conversion do produce the centerfold. The centerfold is not from physical stitching of sensors but of maskings.

Phase One will not discuss the CF issues unless you can produce them with C1 conversion, since they are selling DB and C1 as a total solution. So far, I cannot reproduce the CF with C1 conversion.

I am assuming that your images were processed with LR. Try them with C1 and see if the CF still exist.

LCC correction and CF possibility are the reasons why I am still using C1 instead of LR.

Jae Moon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=130547\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[mtomalty]

Ric

After getting a chance to look at the three samples you posted I tend to think the
flaw you are getting is more similar to an issue some older Imacon backs experienced
where one pixel in a row would 'die' and as a result cause the entire line to fail.

The centerfold issues I have experienced manifested themselves by having the image
'split' in two where one entire half of the frame was a different color,or density,than the
other half,sometimes subtle,sometimes fairly obvious.

Mark

[Joe Behar]

I really feel I need to contribute here.

The following is technical information from someone that sells Phase One equipment and has been doing this for a long time..it is not an opinion it is not bashing anything...

There is no such thing as "centerfold issues" with any Phase One back...period..never have been either.

The lines that appear in Lightroom but not C1 should tell you something..there's nothing wrong with your back. Lightroom is a nice program, I use it myself for some things. There is one thing that you may or may not know...Adobe does not use the black calibration files that your Phase One back has built into it..that's why its so much faster to process. That's also part of the reason why it might not give you everything your digital back is capable of or sometimes even give you corrupted files.

The following is now personal rant and an offer to help...

I enjoy banter and discussion as much as the next guy, but please..don't speculate unless you know what the problem is. I have contributed to this forum a few times and it seems its always to rant or correct a blatant error, so I'll invite anyone here to ask any questions they wish to on Phase One backs or C1 software and I'll do my best to answer them and not interject any bias.

There are a lot of very technically adept readers on this forum, but it never ceases to amaze me how otherwise smart folk can be so naive sometimes and just take as gospel anything they read. Ask away, I'll answer and you can decide for yourself if I'm to be believed or trusted.

End of rant

[Jae_Moon]

I only use C1 Pro, I have not been able to get into LR yet.

They don't show up in the file when viewed in C1.  But when I process them out and open them in Photoshop it is clearly there.  But it is not visible at 66.67%.  Wierd.

I'll call Phase tomorrow and see what the deal is.
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Ric:

I tend to agree with the other that your line is not what I called CF. In my cases, the CF were not single lines but looked as if the joining of two slightly different exposures next to each other. It showed regardless of image magnification. Again, in LR but not in C1Pro.

Jae M

[Ron Steinberg]

Ric and Greg,

Joe is correct, there never has been a centerfold issue with Phase One backs. What you are both experiencing is a stuck or dead pixel. All backs no matter what brand have these and are calibrated out at the factory prior to delivery. There are two things you can try. First is to dump the camera calibration file (on a mac, its located in Users-User name-Library-Caches-Phase One-Camera calibration, trash everything that is in there. Next time you tether the camera or download an image the back will download the camera calibration file. That sometimes solves the problem. If it doesn't the back needs to go back to Phase One for recalibration.

The reason you don't see the line at 66% in Photoshop has to do with how PS does the interpolation from the full file. You should NEVER view your images in PS at 33% or 66%, only 25, 50 or 100%.

As Joe said, if the file is fine in C1 and not Lightroom, then there is an issue with Lightroom. The Lightroom/Camera Raw engine does not make use of the black calibration files.

Cheers,
Ron

[Mark_Tucker]

Hello All,

I have done a shoot recently with the P45 and the centerfold has appeared on all the shots.  Very visible on the shots with the black background and in the blue sky of other shots.  Shot on an H1 with the 50-110 so there was no movements.

Ric,

I got this appearance of centerfold on one of my P backs once, but only when trying to use Lightroom. The issue was in the blue channel. I then went back and processed the same file in CaptureOne and it was fine. The file was ASA 400, and it was as if a horizontal frame had been divided down the middle into two halves, and the right half of the frame was about two-thirds of a stop hotter than the left half. Very apparent in the blue channel.

At this point in time, it's unclear to me whether the Adobe people are being forced to "reverse engineer" the Phase files, in order to get them to work in LightRoom, or whether Phase is cooperating somehow. I have asked Phase this question, but with so many things Phase, there is no response and nothing but silence. Since they are working on v4 of C1, this I suppose does not surprise me.

In short, for the time being, I only process important P30, P21 files in CaptureOne. I don't need any surprises.

This is what you get when the company that you buy backs from, also makes competing software. And made worse when you have a company like PhaseOne which has less than ideal communication with their customers. My advice: keep it simple and process in CaptureOne. At least for now.

Also, my advice is to view these questionable issues ONLY at 100% magnification inside of Photoshop; that's where the true information is.

Also, Paul Schefz also has mentioned here about seeing a single-pixel-wide from his P30, when processed in Lightroom.

[Mort54]

The lines that appear in Lightroom but not C1 should tell you something..

I don't know where this came from. Ric never said he sees the line only in Lightroom. In fact, he says he hasn't even tried opening the file in Lightroom. He said he only sees the line after he exports the image from C1. He further said he doesn't see it when he's viewing it in C1. This tells me the problem is most likely in the C1 exporter.

I use Lightroom and C1, and honestly, Lightroom is now the better of the two. I much prefer the rendering of my P45 files from Lightroom. I certainly don't see any lines in Lightroom on my P45 files, or any misbalance between one side or the other.

[Mort54]

attached please find the files of close up screen grabs of the shots.   They show up at 50% and at 100% but do not show up at 66.67%.  Very strange.

Ric, having finally looked at your samples, I'm inclined to believe you either have a bad row (or column) of pixels, or there's an issue with the C1 exporter. I lean more toward the C1 exporter explanation, since I would think you would see the line in C1 when you view it at 100%. As for the line not showing up at 67% in PS, I'm guessing that's just an aliasing issue, with PS resampling the image in such a way that the line disappears.

[Joe Behar]

I have never seen this on my P25 back ever using C1.  Wierd artifacts have shown up using LR & RD with my P25, but this 45 is giving me issues and I am not happy with it.

I may be misunderstanding. but it appears the gentleman is seeing unusual results in some cases with LIghtroom.

[Mort54]

I may be misunderstanding. but it appears the gentleman is seeing unusual results in some cases with LIghtroom.
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My comment was regarding the line he's seeing on his P45 shots, which Ric stated he had not seen in C1, but had seen on images exported from C1 and viewed in PS. He clearly stated he had not looked at this file in Lightroom. He did state, as you point out, that he's had past issues on P25 files viewed in LR (he didn't indicate if they were lines or other artifacts), but remember that LR has only recently officially supported Phase One files. Earlier support was unofficial, and I could certainly believe there were issues with that earlier support. All I can say is I don't have any such lines when viewing my P45 files in LR.