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Author Topic: ZERO NOISE technique  (Read 394802 times)

dwdallam

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« Reply #120 on: September 16, 2007, 04:11:22 AM »

I would suggest making this program Open Source unless you want some company ripping it off and reprogramming it in C++Turbo or something. Then we WILL be paying for it. Also, if you make it Open Source, people will work on it indefinitely and it can never be sold--ever. Either that or Copyright it ASAP.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 04:12:04 AM by dwdallam »
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feppe

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« Reply #121 on: September 16, 2007, 05:29:40 AM »

Quote
I would suggest making this program Open Source unless you want some company ripping it off and reprogramming it in C++Turbo or something. Then we WILL be paying for it. Also, if you make it Open Source, people will work on it indefinitely and it can never be sold--ever. Either that or Copyright it ASAP.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't see how open sourcing it would make it any less likely that someone will rip it off.

And the program is copyrighted automatically, just like photos, manuscripts, etc. In the US you need to register it to sue for punitive damages AFAIK, but Guillermo is not based in the US.

Nevertheless, if he won't be charging money for it, I'd also like to see it licensed under one of the [a href=\"http://creativecommons.org/]Creative Commons licenses[/url]. I use the Attribution license for all my photography on my website, with the aim of encouraging people to use and distribute it as much as they can, while retaining copyright and getting credited. Creative Commons also has commercial-friendly licenses which allow charging for the program under certain circumstances.

Guillermo Luijk

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« Reply #122 on: September 16, 2007, 10:30:29 AM »

Well, I am using DCRAW to develop the RAW files and Xnview libraries to read/write pixel values, so the only think it's really mine is the idea to put all that together and make it work to blend images.

However I think I have in mind some nice algorithms to eliminate ghosting and visible borders with local progressive blending, as well as producing high quality B&W images doing all calculations (exposure correction, B&W channel mixing and even gamma) in floating point precision before the final 16-bit rounding is applied.

I have been very lazy these last weeks, today is a nice afternoon in Madrid to devote to some coding.

I would like to show some results soon.

Thanks for the interest.
Regards.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 10:32:04 AM by GLuijk »
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jani

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« Reply #123 on: September 16, 2007, 06:30:45 PM »

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Isn't it enough that Guillermo is very generously and graciously sharing and writing this for free (BTW Guillermo, I'll also happily pay for it - you should be rewarded for your work) that we also have to have people complaining that he's not writing a Mac version, or asking him to make his source code freely available??
Hey, cool down a bit, you don't have to be quite that hostile and fanatic about your dislike for everything non-Windows and open source, especially when I've suggested no such thing.

I did, however lament that he'd locked himself to a very specific platform -- one that's not even future proof for Windows!

Guillermo has previously suggested that he'd release the algorithms used, so that others could implement the solution, and if he does that, it would be much appreciated.

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Load Bootcamp and use that.
:roll:

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If I was writing this product and I saw this response to my efforts, then I'd keep it to myself.
If you were the author of the program and posted such a response, you'd definitely get to keep it to yourself; very few people want to use software made by people with such hostile attitudes, because they simply don't want to be treated that way.

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But then I'm not as nice or as generous a person as Guillermo ...
You certainly aren't.

Guillermo has been both nice and generous, and I hope he continues to be so, regardless of how he chooses to make his software available. His attitudes has also shown that he's responsive and friendly when people make suggestions for improvements and changes.

Yes, a small fee for the software and/or services would probably be appropriate.
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Jan

jani

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« Reply #124 on: September 16, 2007, 06:40:22 PM »

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Well, I am using DCRAW to develop the RAW files and Xnview libraries to read/write pixel values, so the only think it's really mine is the idea to put all that together and make it work to blend images.
In the US, those ideas are probably still possible to patent.

Quote
However I think I have in mind some nice algorithms to eliminate ghosting and visible borders with local progressive blending, as well as producing high quality B&W images doing all calculations (exposure correction, B&W channel mixing and even gamma) in floating point precision before the final 16-bit rounding is applied.
It will be interesting to see (yet another) demonstration of your results!

Keep it up!
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Jan

pobrien3

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« Reply #125 on: September 16, 2007, 10:19:25 PM »

Jan, just because my post followed yours (I didn't quote yours either) doesn't mean my remarks were addressed solely to you: they were addressed to all those who when offered something for free were ungrateful and wanted more.  Just for the record, I too am a Mac user.  I also use a PC at those times when I can't get appropriate software for the Mac, and vice versa.  Bootcamp too difficult to use, too inconvenient?  I use it, it works fine: it's not perfect, but life's like that.  I have a hammer in my toolbox, but I also have a screwdriver - I don't use just one of them for all jobs.  Buggers my workflow when I have to switch from one to the other though...  

And I'm so glad you won't use software that's not written by nice people (I trust you got a full character reference of all the Apple and Adobe developers by the way).

Peter
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Natasa Stojsic

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« Reply #126 on: September 22, 2007, 01:56:55 PM »

Guillermo Luijk,

When is your beautiful Software due for release?

I hope soon
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jani

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« Reply #127 on: September 22, 2007, 03:54:04 PM »

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Just for the record, I too am a Mac user.  I also use a PC at those times when I can't get appropriate software for the Mac, and vice versa.  Bootcamp too difficult to use, too inconvenient?  I use it, it works fine: it's not perfect, but life's like that.
 - again

1) PowerMacs/PowerBooks can't use Bootcamp to load Windows.
2) Not everybody runs a compatible version of Windows anyway, and VB6 isn't guaranteed support in future Windows versions.
3) Not everybody wants to hand money to Bill Gates.
4) And even so, not all of the world is Mac + Windows.

But none of these items are really problematic if the algorithms are free for others to implement.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 03:54:45 PM by jani »
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StuT

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« Reply #128 on: September 23, 2007, 05:25:05 PM »

Not wishing to exacerbate things but, could Vmware or an equivalent product not be a solution for those not running Windows? It is not perfect but it would allow a version of windows to be run for Linux certainly - I'm not a Mac person but I think this works.

I have used it in the past for friends who have programs which only run under Windows 95 or Windows 98 and they still need access to the program (the backwards compatibility of XP or 2000 is insufficient). So perhaps VB 6 could be handled in a similar manner.

I would love to have the ability to run some programs which only run on a Mac on my PC in a VM if Mr Jobs would allow me to  

Stu
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sergio

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« Reply #129 on: September 25, 2007, 04:18:23 PM »

Your stuff sounds very interesting. I'll keep an eye on this thread to see when you have it ready.

Sergio
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Quentin

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« Reply #130 on: September 25, 2007, 05:30:35 PM »

My Chequebook / Paypal account is ready the moment the program goes on sale - can I assume raw conversion within the program is not essential, or if it is, then Mamiya ZD files will be supported?  

Quentin
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 05:36:57 PM by Quentin »
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julian_love

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« Reply #131 on: September 26, 2007, 03:29:16 AM »

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My Chequebook / Paypal account is ready the moment the program goes on sale
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=141818\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Me too - I'd pay $50 for a Mac version with a decent GUI.

Julian
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Guillermo Luijk

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« Reply #132 on: September 26, 2007, 07:41:25 PM »

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My Chequebook / Paypal account is ready the moment the program goes on sale - can I assume raw conversion within the program is not essential, or if it is, then Mamiya ZD files will be supported?  

Quentin
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, I have found that many people don't feel comfortable with the idea of any program developing their RAW files. I can understand it perfectly, you are used to some tools and workflow, and don't want to change.

However a very important point to make all algorithm and calculations easy is that images are in their primitive linear state; while all commercial RAW developers generate gamma corrected and usually colour profiled images.

[a href=\"http://www.guillermoluijk.com/tutorial/dcraw/index_en.htm]DCRAW[/url] is a very good RAW developer, and supports an always increasing (till his author David Coffin decides to stop updating; that will be a sad day) list of cameras; including your Mamiya.
Find a list here: FORMATS SUPPORTED BY DCRAW

In addition to this, no matter if you used 2 or 10 shots for the same scene, all of them will be quickly developed and their relative exposures accurately calculated (not read from EXIF), and this can be done thanks to having total control of the development process. So not having to develop the images by yourself avoids errors and saves time.

Some people asked for a 16-bit DNG output that could be later developed on any RAW developer of your own. I think this is a great idea but, at least at the moment, far of my intentions and skills.

However I am planning to introduce a tonal richness quality increase and a virtually unlimited DR expansion (16 f-stops or more is definitively possible) thanks to the introduction of the gamma correction performed in floating point precission, prior to one only 16-bit final integer rounding. In a 16-bit linear RAW no more than ~12 f-stops can be coded with a reasonable tonal richness due to the lack of levels in the lowest f-stops.
The difficult part will be to find in the real world a scene with such a huge dynamic range!

PS: BTW Quentin, I looked through your portfolio and your images are oustanding! do you think you really need this tool? lol
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 07:51:32 PM by GLuijk »
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cmi

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« Reply #133 on: September 26, 2007, 07:50:05 PM »

This is my first post in this forum, I have to say I registered because of this thread. A very nice program! I hope it isnt too late to make a suggestion, I would like to have command-line support if possible. Would be awesome ^^

All the best

Christian
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laughfta

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« Reply #134 on: September 26, 2007, 09:44:29 PM »

Guillermo, congratulations on your new program! (I'm sure there will be many more to come, too!)
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thierrylegros396

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« Reply #135 on: September 27, 2007, 03:35:55 AM »

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However I am planning to introduce a tonal richness quality increase and a virtually unlimited DR expansion (16 f-stops or more is definitively possible) thanks to the introduction of the gamma correction performed in floating point precission, prior to one only 16-bit final integer rounding. In a 16-bit linear RAW no more than ~12 f-stops can be coded with a reasonable tonal richness due to the lack of levels in the lowest f-stops.
The difficult part will be to find in the real world a scene with such a huge dynamic range!

Not sure that such a big compression will give a good picture in a screen or worse in a paper.
I've seen so many awfull HDR pictures, partly because authors wanted to show everything in the picture, even in very dark areas !
Keep in mind that our eyes have also an "instantaneous limited dynamic range" !
So, a good idea will be creating an "S-shape" to preserve dynamic and to keep good contrast in the the "mid-tones" !

But I'm very impressed by your work and results !!

Thierry
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Guillermo Luijk

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« Reply #136 on: September 27, 2007, 08:09:53 AM »

Quote
Not sure that such a big compression will give a good picture in a screen or worse in a paper.
I've seen so many awfull HDR pictures, partly because authors wanted to show everything in the picture, even in very dark areas !
Keep in mind that our eyes have also an "instantaneous limited dynamic range" !
So, a good idea will be creating an "S-shape" to preserve dynamic and to keep good contrast in the the "mid-tones" !

But I'm very impressed by your work and results !!

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=142159\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


well most HDR images which look awful, actually don't look that way for being HDR (in fact many of them are not even really high DR), but because their author abused of the tone mapping process which yiedls very unrealistic results if not properly used.

My program is not going to apply any tone mapping. What I do is much simpler, just an image CONTAINING all the information spreaded along many f-stops. It will be up to the user to choose the way how to make use of it. Curves can be applied, so as even tone mapping if your HDR software allows a single TIFF as input.
These huge DR images I am talking about, will be something more interesting from a scientific point of view, that from a practical. In fact, a single S curve applied on to a large DR image (let's say 13 f-stops or more) to show all the available DR will produce a flat (poor in contrast) and boring image. But I want to try it anyway.


PS: thx Gloria!
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 08:12:09 AM by GLuijk »
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MichaelEzra

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« Reply #137 on: September 27, 2007, 08:17:27 AM »

GLuijk,

if you could also add a superresolution algorithm to ths program, this will be priceless.
There is a program PhotoAcute (photoacute.com) it works, but only on small images, it cannot be used for high end photography.

I started this post: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=19860
(Multishot superresolution software) as I am looking for a solution to digitize my 6x7 negatives using Mamiya ZD, yet at a higher resolution than the sensor can record. PhotoAcute can create higher resolution images due to sub-pixel misalignment of the originals, it also cleans noise as you get better  signal statistics from multiple captures.
Combine all these features into what you are doing - and this will be a complete marvel.

Thanks,
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Guillermo Luijk

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« Reply #138 on: September 27, 2007, 09:08:44 AM »

Quote
if you could also add a superresolution algorithm to ths program, this will be priceless.
There is a program PhotoAcute (photoacute.com) it works, but only on small images, it cannot be used for high end photography.

I started this post: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=19860
(Multishot superresolution software) as I am looking for a solution to digitize my 6x7 negatives using Mamiya ZD, yet at a higher resolution than the sensor can record. PhotoAcute can create higher resolution images due to sub-pixel misalignment of the originals, it also cleans noise as you get better  signal statistics from multiple captures.
Combine all these features into what you are doing - and this will be a complete marvel.

Yes, I saw with great interest the PhotoAcute website and was amazed by the superresolution feature. But believe me, what I do is really really SIMPLE, absolutely not much technical background needed.
Algorithms such as those from PhotoAcute are only at reach of real men, and I am not at all. lol

Quentin

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« Reply #139 on: September 27, 2007, 12:28:41 PM »

Hi Guillermo,

Thanks and noted about the ZD support.

As to my shots, you are much too kind; I'm just a hack who will benefit enormously from your software  

Cheers

Quentin
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