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Author Topic: Nikon vs. Cannon  (Read 251782 times)

howiesmith

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Nikon vs. Cannon
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2007, 06:29:28 pm »

When I was studying photography (and I never had any intention of ever going pro), I had a "student" roommate who had the best equipment Mommy could afford (which was Swedish).  He is selling used cars now.  While I had friends and no acne, I was probably an "academic" (responsible?).

I think DiaAzul is dead wrong, except to say the kind of camera doesn't make the photographer.  Most of the "students" didn't finish school, or become pros.  Just dropouts.  But there were plenty of people at school with both very good equipment and photos who are pros now.

The ones I really felt sorry for spent all their money and time on rent, tuition, parties and cameras, then couldn't afford or have time to make photos.  Never learned to budget anything and then stick to it.  I would call it a lack of discipline.

I had an instructor who started every class with "Most people can't tell good photos from bad, but they do know [fill in the blank]."  It was usually late for appointments, late with assignments, over budget or simply did the wrong assignment.  Most of the time you could sum it up with "nonprofessional."
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Mark D Segal

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Nikon vs. Cannon
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2007, 06:42:44 pm »

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At the end of the day it doesn't matter two tugs whether the camera is any good, you have to learn to be in the right place at the right time and sneak every opportunity you can get to find a decent image - that is the most important thing to learn as a student.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105530\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

David, this is so true and important. It's really hard to advise people on gear. SO much depends on budgets, intentions, taste, etc.

That said, I don't quite agree with the folks who assume that just because the purchaser is a student anything that makes images will do. It's not that simple. Even a student - having reached the stage of developing a view on these things - should buy intelligently and if serious about photography in a forward looking manner.

Let us revert to the original question:

<<I am a photography student and I am ready to buy a good digital SLR. My photography interest include: landscape, action and portraiture. My instructor has recommended the Cannon. My sister who is in the business says Nikon is industry standard. Price is not really an issue, but I want to be sure I don't regret my purchase. Any advice? >>

So, this is a person who already knows he/she wants a good DSLR, knows what kind of work he/she will be doing, says price isn't an issue and doesn't want to regret the purchase. That information in hand, I don't think this thread is of much assistance to him/her. Without being inappropriately prescriptive, we can guide him/her through a process of elimination with some questions and guidelines, such as (without pretending to be exhaustive):

1. Do you want a full-frame camera or a reduced size sensor? Check articles on L-L that describe the merits of each. This is THE FIRST question to address, because if the answer is "full-frame", that limits the choice to three cameras: Canon 1Ds, Canon 1DsMk11 and Canon D5. Kind of makes life simple®.

2. Do you want to have maximum choice of lenses, or will a more limited selection do? If you want maximum, Canon and Nikon have the largest line-up of matching lenses for their camera bodies. Sub-question: whose lens line-up do you think better responds to your needs now and down the road?

3. How robust does the build quality need to be? Does it need to work in very harsh climatic conditions almost without fail? Then the choice most likely comes down to Canon 1Ds, Canon 1DsMk11 and Nikon D2X. These are the models with the best weather sealing on the market - from what I read and hear. Maybe there are others, but I don't know them. If the answer is that the ultimate in rough handling is not necessary, a Canon 5D would be excellent quality period and all the more so for the money within the Canon line-up.

4. Most important, go to the camera shop and play with them, look through their viewfinders, try managing menus, try changing lenses, etc. Which do you relate best to ergonomically?

5. Post-capture software: which models give you the most flexibility for using common raw conversion programs such as Adobe Camera Raw? Are there still any advantages/disadvantages to one camera or another in this regard? Answering this would require a bit of web research for the latest turn-of-the-screw on that issue.

6. If you've narrowed down to a few models, think of which features and qualities are most important to you, and do some web-research, first through the professional reviews and then into the serious web-forums to get a feel for which ones are likely to respond best to what you consider most important.

7. Will your retailer let you "buy and try" for a couple of days, on the understanding that you will end-up with a final purchase? This is an important insurance policy especially for a first time buyer at the learning stage.

I'm sure there's more. Let's help this person by suggesting the tangible things that help make serious decisions.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Ray

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Nikon vs. Cannon
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2007, 06:56:19 pm »

I think you've all missed the point. The most important question here for the student is 'which format' do you prefer?' It's arse about face to start off with the question, 'which brand?' (Let's see if that brand I've selected has the format I want..... is a bit silly.)

If expense is not a major issue, the beginner should first decide which format and then look at the brand alternatives. With this in mind, Canon produces DSLR formats which are more than double the size (area) of any Nikon DSLR, as well as producing formats that are slightly smaller than Nikon.

If you want a format about double the size of the largest Canon DSLRs then you need something like a P45.
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2007, 07:06:32 pm »

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I think you've all missed the point. The most important question here for the student is 'which format' do you prefer?' [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105547\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ray LOOK ABOVE at Question #1 in my post.

I did not miss the point one iota!  

Cheers,

Mark
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2007, 08:45:59 pm »

I think Mark's list of questions is excellent.

I would add one point, from personal experience: Whatever camera you end up with, start with only one lens in the focal length that you think you will use most. Don't buy any second lens unless and until you have experienced a real need for it (i.e., missed shots because you didn't have the right lens.)

When I was starting out, with a fixed-lens camera, I got pretty good pretty quick (pats self on back.) As soon as I "graduated" to an SLR with more than one lens, my seeing got much weaker for a while, because I was so distracted by the possibilities of different lenses. A couple more times that I moved up to fancier (more versatile) equipment, I sort of lost my way for a while again.

Bottom line: Learning is much faster if you keep your equipment simple and push its limits before upgrading, IMHO.
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Ray

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« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2007, 02:12:05 am »

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Ray LOOK ABOVE at Question #1 in my post.

I did not miss the point one iota!   

Cheers,

Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105551\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sorry! I'll rephrase that. You've all missed the point except Mark   .
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DiaAzul

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« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2007, 03:27:04 am »

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1. Do you want a full-frame camera or a reduced size sensor? Check articles on L-L that describe the merits of each. This is THE FIRST question to address, because if the answer is "full-frame", that limits the choice to three cameras: Canon 1Ds, Canon 1DsMk11 and Canon D5. Kind of makes life simple®.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105543\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I would actually strongly disagree with that being the first question, and in fact doubt its relevancy at all in selecting a camera. Given the list of subject matter the more important aspects are frame rate, auto-focus capability, ability to work well with studio lighting, metering capabilities, possible file size for landscape and portraiture (dependent upon final output requirements), lens range, viewfinder, ergonomics, etc.... People get too hung up on whether a camera is full frame, cropped or any other dimension. There is far more to a camera than whether it is FF, 1.3x, 1.5x or 1.6x that it becomes one of a series of factors in choosing a camera and not THE deciding factor.

It is for each photographer to determine for themselves which is the most appropriate ranking of features - which is why there is always so much controversy over which is the best camera. You can't know the answer to this until you have been using an SLR for a number of years and even then you will realise there is no perfect camera for every situation (that is why photographers own so many bags).

Going back to my original theme it is more important to get the non-camera related fundamentals sorted out first. Find a cheap(ish) starter camera - doesn't matter what brand - and then get some experience. Only then can you make sensible decisions about what works and doesn't. By the time two or three years pass the camera market will haave moved on (everyone will be lusting after the lated Apple iCamera) so spending a lot of money today when you don't know where you want to be in three years time is crazy.

As an addendum, the two most important things to learn after where to stand are ROI and COS - Return on Investment and Cost of Sales. Until you have a good understanding on your business model excessive investment in camera equipment doesn't make business sense - buy someting second hand if needs be and its is cheap and value for money.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 03:29:18 am by DiaAzul »
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David Plummer    http://photo.tanzo.org/

paulnorheim

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« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2007, 05:47:39 am »

The student probably wanted pro advices, since she went to LL. I am talking as an amateur. In one sense, however, we are all more or less "amateurs", considering the digital revolution during the last few years. Nobody really knows if it is wise to buy gear from Canon, Nikon or some other, perhaps smaller brand in a 10-15 years perspective. We`ll all be surprised by developments in sensors, lenses, focus issues, post processing etc, since digital photography is still in its infancy.  

For me money was an issue, and in October 2005 I got a Canon Digital Rebel (350D) and a Sigma 30 f/1.4 (like a "normal" 50 mm on "full frame" or film camera), and tried to learn photography with one prime lens. Six months later I got a small 24 & 50 mm (I like "street photography" and casual portraits). I didn´t regret this path. I think I learned the ABC of photography better then if I`d started with a wide zoom, a normal zoom and a tele zoom.
   
But if money wasn´t an issue, and I should buy a camera today, focusing on "landscape, action and portraits" (as the student says), this is what I would do:
   I would get a Canon 5D (full frame for landscape), buy a 35 mm f/1.4 and focus on landscape for 4-6 months, learning to see with a moderate wide angle lens, learning the elementary but important secrets of depth of field/bokeh, and really get familiar with the perspective from this lens.
   Then I would get a 85mm f/1,8 or 1,2 (money no issue?), try to learn portrait photography (and more about bokeh) and try to shoot some indoor and outdoor action with it.
   Then, after 8-12 months, I would buy a 200 mm (or 300 mm) to learn the perspective of a tele lens (and for action/sport & landscape, birds, wildlife etc).
And then, if I was curious (and I probably would be very curious!), I would get a zoom lens, to see if it was of any advantage to me.
   To make it really simple, I would consider using only ONE LENS FOR ONE YEAR, say a 50 mm f/1.4 or 1.2 (on the same Canon 5D) instead of the three mentioned above. But with those three lenses I imagine I could take most of the pictures worth taking, and learn most of the ways of seeing, in photography terms, worth learning.
   
If, however, weather sealing was an important issue, I would go for the high end Nikon, or Pentax K10D (perhaps not Canon right now, since they probably will come up with a new one quite soon), and lenses equivalent of moderate wide angle, moderate tele, and a more far reaching tele.
And if weather sealing and full frame wasn`t so important, but size was, I would go with anything smaller, from Canon or Nikon or Pentax, or the recently announced Olympus cameras. They all have excellent lenses, some stronger on the tele side (Canon), some better on wide angle (Nikon? Olympus? Pentax?), some more compact (Pentax) etc.
   I think the biggest danger for someone with money to spend on gear, is to get too much too fast, and never really learning how to use it.
   
In any case, the "student" starting this thread (is she really a student, or just someone who wanted to see if she could trigger a fight at LL with her title "Nikon vs. Canon?"??) have got too many advices – and here I offer my two cents...!
   But this thread is probably read by a few former film photographers who wants to buy his or her first DSLR, as well as people starting with a digital camera without former experience with film cameras. My advise for the latter is a camera that fits the bill and the purpose of your needs, and ONE to THREE prime lenses.
   It could be a Pentax, or perhaps a Panasonic.
   (Or should I go for a Sony, since MY sister says that Sony is THE INDUSTRY STANDARD?)

Paul
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 06:58:53 am by paulnorheim »
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2007, 09:03:43 am »

I don't see any reason why NOT to buy a decent zoom lens from the start. One learns alot about composition using a zoom lens and it is more versatile and convenient than a series of primes. I have only one prime which is reserved for situations where I need very wide aperture.

David, your point about sensor size not being important we'll have to agree to disagree about I guess. Your second paragraph begs the question - this person is asking for our advice - doesn't want to be told to spend a few years finding out. That will happen regardless. The remainder of your post is about being a photography student and doesn't answer the question asked.

Returning to your issue about the importance of sensor size, we're talking purely hardware here, not who should buy it when, and size does matter. It is a major differentiator of choice of cameras, making it efficient to start there; it has pixel quality implications; this, combined more importantly with the pixel count has implications for preservation of flexibility in cropping and print dimensions, it has ergonomic implications in respect of what you see through the viewfinder, and it has advantages for wide-angle photography and generally is a more consistent format relative to the broadest selection of lenses. So I don't dismiss this factor at all. It was very expensive to obtain until Canon put the 5D on the market at a much more reachable price point for many photographers - but it's still not cheap. The reason why most digital cameras aren't *full frame* has nothing to do with technical merit and everything to do with the cost of the sensor. Digital photography wouldn't have exploded commercially the way it has without the science of small sensor production, but that doesn't make the CHOICE of which to buy a trivial one.

Finally, let me say, I'm not interested in re-opening a tired debate about the merits of sensor size with all the pixel-peeping implied therein. Many people make excellent photographs with all kinds of sensors - but for reasons I've stated above that doesn't make it an inconsequential consideration when chosing equipment.

I can also reflect my own experience. At the time the Canon 20D first came out I was looking at a choice of buying that or a used 1Ds. I had the luxury of playing with both cameras before buying. I saw excellent prints made by a world-class professional from raw files shot with both cameras and I decided to buy the used 1Ds, heavier as it is. Sensor size was one important factor. Since then, both larger and smaller sensors and their firmware have improved in quality.

Given the same choice with today's equipment, personally I would buy a 5D hands-down. The ergonomics are good, the viewfinder and LCD screen really good, and the image quality with a good sample of an L lens simply superb. But that's me for myself - I wouldn't urge that choice on anyone else - each person needs to think through the criteria for the choice of hardware relative to their own means, needs and preferences as they perceive them at the time they want to buy a camera.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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flbrit

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« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2007, 12:07:58 pm »

Hi Guys

What a really restrained and pleasent debate. This is my first post; it will not be my last but I am still going through the wealth of knowledge here. This particular debate really vindicates my decission to use this forum as my primary source of information. I note that the origional poster has not given any feedback yet. Pardon my suspicions but Norwegion beasties come to mind.

Regards - Brian
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 12:08:33 pm by flbrit »
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howiesmith

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Nikon vs. Cannon
« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2007, 12:54:06 pm »

Sorry I missed the point entirely.  I thought the original poster had aleady decided to buy a good DSLR, and wanted advice on whether it should be a Canon or Nikon (Nikon vs. Cannon).

Given that, many decisions have already been made.  Nikon or Canon?  Answer draws many differring opinions, but I am pretty sure the answer isn't format or brands other than Nikon or Canon.
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2007, 01:19:39 pm »

Howie, my interpretation of the original request is that it mentions Canon and Nikon, but does not necessarily limit the range of choice to those two brands. We don't know that many decisions have been made, but we do know that price is not a binding constraint and the person's mind is open to advice. I as well don't think format is THE answer, but rather PART of the issue list to consider.

Time for Valkyrie to let us know what else we can say helpfully!
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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howiesmith

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Nikon vs. Cannon
« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2007, 01:27:10 pm »

Mark, I was just going by the name of the post - "Nikon or Cannon".  Given that question, I still don't see how the answer could Sony.

"Do you want chicken or fish?"
"I'll have the roast beef."  Wrong?
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2007, 02:06:23 pm »

Howie, OK I ignored the title and just went straight for the content of the post. But, hey, you know, if I go into a restaurant intending to eat chicken or fish and the staff are really persuasive about the qualities of the roast beef I may just change my mind .............!  
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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howiesmith

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Nikon vs. Cannon
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2007, 02:19:16 pm »

Quote
Howie, OK I ignored the title and just went straight for the content of the post. But, hey, you know, if I go into a restaurant intending to eat chicken or fish and the staff are really persuasive about the qualities of the roast beef I may just change my mind .............!   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105684\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I see your point.  Especially if you ask what kind of fish is that and they say carp.  Any piece of chicken might seem better.  Maybe you just thought you wanted fish or chicken.  

But if you go to KFC, don't wait for beef.  It's chicken or fish.  And I have never understood why I would go to a steak house to order chicken.

OK then, a Nikon or Canon DSLR?  I'll have a 4x5 film camera.
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2007, 02:30:36 pm »

Not a bad choice Howie. There's a guy here in Toronto with a glitzy studio down by the waterfront where the rent has to be steep who uses a 5*7 view camera and produces the most gorgeous wall-size "platinum prints" (he says) that sell framed in the range of 3500 ~ 4500 dollars EACH. Well, film is ALMOST dead, but not quite!
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John Camp

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« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2007, 06:11:56 pm »

I also think we've been trolled. How many "photography" students would misspell "Canon" twice?" Once might be a typo, twice probably isn't. As for price being no object, it's always an object: if Mom is going to buy you any kit you want, tell her it's $10,000, then buy the cheaper one and send the money you save to Meals on Wheels. There are hungry people out there. For somebody who's thinking about a "Cannon," I doubt that it makes any difference which system you buy into.

And for a student who is interested in landscapes, action photos and portraiture, why not go for something more creative? I'd suggest doing cross-category stuff like action-landscapes, or landscape-portraiture.

By the way, for those who haven't seen it, the latest issue of Aperture magazine has a section devoted to the photography of Jessica Lange.

JC
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2007, 10:14:21 pm »

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I also think we've been trolled. How many "photography" students would misspell "Canon" twice?" [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105734\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Could be - but the evidence? If Valkyrie doesn't know how to spell Cannon the first time why shouldn't he/she mis-spell Cannon the second time? Anyhow, trolled or not its been a bit of fun.  
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Ray

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« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2007, 10:12:42 am »

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I would actually strongly disagree with that being the first question, and in fact doubt its relevancy at all in selecting a camera. Given the list of subject matter the more important aspects are frame rate, auto-focus capability, ability to work well with studio lighting, metering capabilities, possible file size for landscape and portraiture (dependent upon final output requirements), lens range, viewfinder, ergonomics, etc.... People get too hung up on whether a camera is full frame, cropped or any other dimension. There is far more to a camera than whether it is FF, 1.3x, 1.5x or 1.6x that it becomes one of a series of factors in choosing a camera and not THE deciding factor.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105604\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You have a point of course, David. It's not perhaps so clear-cut as deciding on a format first (money not being a major concern).

At present, the D2X has an image quality and enlargability approximately on a par with the 5D, though both are different format cameras. However, I foresee that Nikon will not be able to maintain this image parity with the larger format Canons in the future as pixel density increases. A full frame 35mm sensor with the pixel density of the 400D would be 26mp.

The main investment when choosing a brand is the lenses which one gradually accumulates. Camera bodies and their features and functionality are improving year by year. People tend to get caught in a particular system because of the value of their lenses.

A student who opts for a Nikon without regard to format might, a few years down the track, regret not being able to switch without great expense to that 26mp 1Ds4 which he thinks he needs for his new large format printer.
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2007, 10:38:59 am »

Quote
The main investment when choosing a brand is the lenses which one gradually accumulates. .............People tend to get caught in a particular system because of the value of their lenses.

A student who opts for a Nikon without regard to format might, a few years down the track, regret not being able to switch without great expense to that 26mp 1Ds4 which he thinks he needs for his new large format printer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=105821\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ray, I think this is right-on. It is also one of the reasons why I opted for a used 1Ds instead of a new 20D, at the time; the 1DsMkII was already on the market and I saw the trend: increasing MP-count, allowing more cropping/greater enlargement, and obviously the larger the sensor the more likely there will be yet greater MP-count while preserving high quality. So anyone looking down the road and thinking they may want this flexibility should take sensor size into account, amongst other things. That said, one can always switch systems and sell used lenses, but there is a loss as well as a nuissance factor doing the transactions and getting accustomed to another camera system.

But getting back to John Camp, it really is strange that Valkyrie hasn't responded to any of this yet. Maybe we are being trolled...........
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