Printing profile targets on Mac

[eronald]

Hi

Has anyone here _verified_ a clean target printpath on the Mac?
Has anyone here verified, with a spectro, that their prints made by applying a profile on the Mac really match what the data says should be on the paper?

Edmund

[Czornyj]

Hi

Has anyone here _verified_ a clean target printpath on the Mac?
Has anyone here verified, with a spectro, that their prints made by applying a profile on the Mac really match what the data says should be on the paper?

Edmund

Mirage Print, Canon PP&L, Epson PL have clean paths, in other cases I just use Windows or old Macbook Air laptop

[eronald]

Mirage Print, Canon PP&L, Epson PL have clean paths, in other cases I just use Windows or old Macbook Air laptop

The motivation for this is that I want to find a bulletproof printpath for "simple users" to print their profiling targets. I can print my targets - I do so on a Windows VM using either ACPU or CS2

I have used Claude to test EPL, found a 7.9 de 2000 offset which also appears in many of the other print paths. Actually what "we" tried doing was implement my idea to invert sRGB in order to use it as an output profile and by concatenation create an identity, and that worked, Claude checked its numbers, but then EPL still applies some other profile on top of it.  Claude is adamant that it is really a typical effect of a profile being applied. I'm trying to track it down. The same effect can be seen in other "clean" print paths on Tahoe. It is possible that it is an effect of the Epson driver and not of the Mac Cups filter cascade.

I'm starting to wonder whether  we might not  be looking at a serious bug, where this offset profile is being applied on top of the selected print profile - which in the case of my hack happens to be an (sRGB-1)  hack to turn the pipeline into a null transform.

If it helps, I'm well aware that when it come to color I'm not the sharpest knife in the box, but this a case fo something easy (printing a target) which I have been doing for 20 years, turning into an unexpected headache with complete unpredictability.  You're welcome to tell me I'm an idiot, if no one told me that, I'd never learn.

Edmund

[digitaldog]

As I mentioned in your other post yesterday, the ColorSync Utility can print targets for creating profiles.

[eronald]

As I mentioned in your other post yesterday, the ColorSync Utility can print targets for creating profiles.

Andrew I too thought Colorsync was ok, and advised people to use it. However, as  I think I mentioned, my latest use of Colorsync ended with Claude diagnosing exactly the same mysterious offset, which it says is unambiguously caused by a profile application.

I'm now writing down a list of printpaths, and I'm going to do all the prints,  put the prints through my i1Isis and send them to Claude for evaluation.

Edmund

[digitaldog]

Either you set up the utility incorrectly, or Claude is wrong. It absolutely works.
The latest version of i1profiler, not so much.

[digitaldog]

These print paths match. The dE’s reported in ColorThink are tiny, and I didn't let all the targets dry down, but all can be considered the same for printing a target without color management.

•ColorSync Utility set to Print as Target - use the ColorSync radio button, grayed out due to picking this option.
•ColorSync Utility set to Epson Color Controls, then No color management in Epson Driver.
In the ColorSync Utility print dialog options, it doesn't appear that setting Prematch to printer profile or Hand off to printer makes a difference; the important setting is no color management from Epson Color Controls.
•i1Profile set to Epson Color Controls, then No color management in Epson Driver

[digitaldog]

Profile made in 2022 vs one made yesterday using a smaller target, but using what I know is a correct print path for the targets. PLEASE ignore AI, use HI, and look at the dEs of this process:
--------------------------------------------------

dE Report

Number of Samples: 988

Delta-E Formula dE2000

Overall - (988 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
 Average dE:   0.73
     Max dE:   2.34
     Min dE:   0.08
  StdDev dE:   0.39
95th %ile dE:   1.54

Best 90% - (888 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.63
   Max dE:   1.22
   Min dE:   0.08
StdDev dE:   0.24

Worst 10% - (100 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   1.61
   Max dE:   2.34
   Min dE:   1.22
StdDev dE:   0.32

--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------

The AVERAGE dE is 0.73 between a process done in 2022 and one done yesterday. The print process is SOUND.
The MAX dE is 1.6, which is nearly invisible to the eye. And this is from two profiles made four years apart, with one using 5000 odd patches to build, and one (yesterday) using 918 patches. I’d have expected higher dE than this. But what it shows with actual color science is:

1. Printing of targets is consistent today, like it was in 2022.
2. The P800 inks and papers are damn consistent.
3. Lots more patches doesn’t equal a much better/different profile.

[GWGill]

However, as  I think I mentioned, my latest use of Colorsync ended with Claude diagnosing exactly the same mysterious offset, which it says is unambiguously caused by a profile application.

There's your problem -  Claude doesn't understand anything, since it doesn't have a mind.
It's just a word predictor. It will emit the average of "what people have said on the internet".

[digitaldog]

There's your problem -  Claude doesn't understand anything, since it doesn't have a mind.
It's just a word predictor. It will emit the average of "what people have said on the internet".

Amen and thanks for posting sound HI.

[digitaldog]

Either you set up the utility incorrectly, or Claude is wrong. It absolutely works.
The latest version of i1profiler, not so much.

Let me clarify based on today's testing and a conversation with X-rite.
in i1Profiler, the old method of using Printer Manages Color, seeing that the ColorSync Radio button is grayed out, which used to work, no longer does. I can post screenshots if anyone is interested, but don't try that method under Tahoe or until X-rite decides to 'fix' it.
Using Printer Manages Color and (in the case of Epson), setting No color management in the driver does work. The output is identical to using the CS utility. The measurements of the various options that DO produce a good profile were mentioned earlier. 

[eronald]

Let me clarify based on today's testing and a conversation with X-rite.
in i1Profiler, the old method of using Printer Manages Color, seeing that the ColorSync Radio button is grayed out, which used to work, no longer does. I can post screenshots if anyone is interested, but don't try that method under Tahoe or until X-rite decides to 'fix' it.
Using Printer Manages Color and (in the case of Epson), setting No color management in the driver does work. The output is identical to using the CS utility. The measurements of the various options that DO produce a good profile were mentioned earlier.

Andrew,

Could you give precise steps which work in Colorsync Utility for Epson ? Maybe with screenshots? Thank you!

Edmund

[digitaldog]

Could you give precise steps which work in Colorsync Utility for Epson ? Maybe with screenshots? Thank you!

http://digitaldog.net/files/PrintingTargetsCSUtility.pdf

[eronald]

http://digitaldog.net/files/PrintingTargetsCSUtility.pdf

thx, will check.

[Jonathan Cross]

I am interested in this thread as it seems to go far deeper than I thought I needed to go.  I use Fotospeed papers (available in  both USA and Canada through distributors).  They offer both generic profiles and custom profiles, both free.  For a custom profile for one of their papers, you download a target file and print it with Adobe Colour Print Utility, send the print to them and back comes a profile for that paper which you download and install.

Is this not sufficient, or do not other paper manufacturers provide this service?

Jonathan

[eronald]

I am interested in this thread as it seems to go far deeper than I thought I needed to go.  I use Fotospeed papers (available in  both USA and Canada through distributors).  They offer both generic profiles and custom profiles, both free.  For a custom profile for one of their papers, you download a target file and print it with Adobe Colour Print Utility, send the print to them and back comes a profile for that paper which you download and install.

Is this not sufficient, or do not other paper manufacturers provide this service?

Jonathan

Jonathan,
This thread is about ways to print that file on the Mac. On the PC just do as they say. You should definitely make use of this service as they offer it to you for free.
Edmund

[Jonathan Cross]

Jonathan,
This thread is about ways to print that file on the Mac. On the PC just do as they say. You should definitely make use of this service as they offer it to you for free.
Edmund

Thanks Edmund. I do all my processing in LR/PS on an Apple M1 iMac
 so print from that system. I am pleased with the free custom profiles.
Jonathan

[eronald]

If it helps anyone, I've been slowly figuring out he printpath of the Mac and checking it. So far, so good, the Apple cgftoraster filter seems to apply no strange color profiles or stuff to untagged files. I now have to look at the epson driver.