Printing on Metal?

[Dave Gurtcheff]

I have a long history of printing my own work, going back to my Color Darkroom Days. I am now 88, and still sell my matted and framed prints (but not as many as I used to). Our second bedroom has been taken over by me for my printers and scanners. I used to have a workshop for my mounting, matting and framing my work, but I have lost three of them over the last 20 years, for various reasons (usually the owner needed the space). My workshop is now our kitchen counter that must be cleared off when I need to cut, mount, mat and frame a print. I also have an inventory of fome boards, matts, plexiglass, frames and photo paper of various sizes. An old customer of mine, who has purchased my work over the years, called me today and said he wanted more prints. He also said he recently purchased from another Photographer, prints that were printed on metal, (high gloss) and he loved them. He asked if I would be willing to have several of my images printed by a third party in this way. I have seen this type of print at the local hospital/health center, and I must say they were beautiful, but did not capture the local seascapes available here, which I try to do. In other words a beautiful presentation of non-local subjects. I never crop my work as it made it easier to standardize my print size offerings, buying pre-cut bevel mats, etc. Attached is my "Standard" Print size Offerings, based on 35mm  (3:2) or 645 format (4:3). So having limited fixed print sizes available should not be a problem. The metal prints are flush printed with no mat, so instead of offering, say a 13"x19" print in 20"x24" mat and frame, I could offer a 18"x24" metal print (no mat of frame). Here are my standard sizes:




First: Have any of you folks had metal prints made? Would you mind sharing who did it?Were you happy with the results? I have always prided myself on being a pretty good printer. Doing it all myself allowed me to insure I used archival materials, and I controlled the presentation.  At my age having someone else print my work (from my massaged digital file) is tempting, but I hope I will always be able to print big when I want to. I use an Epson P800 (17" wide) and Epson 7890  24" Roll Paper). Not sure where to post this, so I may post in several forums/categories.

Dave G.

Beach Haven, NJ

www.modernpictorials.com

[dgberg]

Tons of places to order online but if you want to get involved and see your images processed to final print in person take a day and a nice two hour drive in the country and come over for a visit. Only an hour west of Philly. Bring some images and we can do several while you are here.Well worth the trip. Or just come for a tour and talk shop and have lunch.
Dan

To add, No need to crop images to fit certain ratios. I Have a big sliding tablesaw setup to custom cut any size metal as over half of our requests are for non standard sizes.
Run the cut metal over our helical carbide jointer to remove the saw marks and quarter round the 4 corners and done.
Only takes a few minutes to do custom sizes. Would love to have a cnc to do that work but don't have the volume to justify it.

[Dave Gurtcheff]

Thanks Dan, that is very kind of you. We don’t drive longer distances, or at night if we can help it any more. When we do, my wife usually drives. We are about two hours from Philly. Again, thanks for the invitation, but I think I will pass.
Dave (Beach Haven, NJ)

[dgberg]

Great day trip if you reconsider. Map quest shows 2:20 from your place but I understand.

[Robcat]

I was going to suggest Dan Berg, but I see he's already replied. He's top notch with regular, canvas and metal prints. I've been to his shop a number of times and he's got it dialed in. You will like his metal prints as well as you'll like anybody's. Even if you don't want to make the trip to his place, you could just send files and get the print shipped back.

[Kyle D Jackson]

Hey I'm curious how does metal printing work anyhow? Like is it just some kind of inkjet-compatible metallic foil on the surface of a carrier substrate (paper? plastic?) that somehow holds ink? And wherever there's no ink the "paper white" of the foil shows thru?

How thick is a typical metal print media?

[Lessbones]

Kyle-- what they're referring to is dye-sublimation onto a polyester powder coated metal panel.  You inkjet print with a special inkset onto transfer paper, then use a heat press to transfer onto the metal panel (really the polyester layer).  The dyes form a bond with the synthetic material and "encase" themselves in the surface essentially.  It's the same process as making synthetic sports jerseys-- from what i was told by the chromaluxe creators, it was somewhat of an accident that someone discovered that powder coated metal could hold a high enough resolution image to be considered photographic

[dgberg]

Chromaluxe metal is .045 thick and runs from $13 to $20 a sq. Ft. Just for the substrate. That is why retail pricing can vary from $40 to $50 a sq ft. The Epson f570 can print on transfer paper for many things, cups, mouse pads Chromaluxe metal, Colorlyte glass, shirts, floor mats and about 50 more items. The last 5 years since Covid there has been a huge increase in Epson et printer sales that were converted to dye sub ink. In addition to a printer you buy a small heat press and that’s it. You are limited to size of printer and heat press. The bigger Knight presses can cost in the $10 to $20k range.
You tube has hundreds of videos showing the process.
A shot of my 32x42 Knight maxi press that we can do 30x40” Chromaluxe on.
The ai print coming out of my F570 reversed.
Metal Chromaluxe print after completion.

[Dave Gurtcheff]

Hi Dan: Please see several responses I received over on DPReview (pasted below). I would like to send you a file, for a small test print (Of course I will pay for everything). If OK with you, please PM me with instructions how to get a file to you and pay you. I have Paypal, or can give you a CC number over the phone or send you a check.

From DPReview Forum:


JimKasson wrote:

gurtch wrote:

Thanks all. The longevity issue is a concern. Of course they would outlast me, but I am thinking about clients or even family. Next time I visit the medical complex here I will look at the metal prints closely to see if they have the level of detail I expect. My equipment is capable of big detailed prints.

thanks again
Dave

Jim Kasson: The resolution of metal prints is limited by the dye diffusion. So larger prints will have higher resolution.

Thanks Jim, that runs counter to traditional darkroom printing. I also remember using slow films with dilute “compensating developers”, to achieve “Edge and Adjacency effects”. Adox Kb 14 and Rodinal is an example that comes to mind. Bay Photo offers small sample prints from my file, I may get one. In lieu of the entire image file, printed small, perhaps I should blow up the image to desired print size, say 30”x40”, and crop out an 8”x10” piece and have them print that?

Dave
JimKasson wrote: That's what I would do.

[dgberg]

Dave I sent a pm but it doesn’t show going through.
Please use my email address, thanks
bergsps@aol.com

[Dave Gurtcheff]

Dan: I just sent you an email. Hope you get it!
Dave

[Dave Gurtcheff]

I sent you a file to your web site. It is an 8"x10" crop from a 24"x32" image to see how it will look as a metal print
. The full image is this one:

[Dave Gurtcheff]

A dilemma as to how to charge for a metal print using my image but printed by a metal print service. When I print my own , then mount, mat, and frame a print, I know what it cost me (not including my time), and my prices are based on providing a reasonable return on my investment. I have a client who wants one of my images printed on metal. He has spoken to the lab and he will pay them directly, to have the print sent to him. He wants to know how much to pay me. I sized the image and uploaded to the lab, and I will never see the print in person. He is a repeat customer, so I went along with his request. Any advice for a "newbie" lab/print/sales guy, but an old timer print/frame/sell my own work guy.
Dave

[mcbroomf]

Not sure how easy it would be, but you could pick apart the cost for one of your conventional images then subtract; framing, mounting, matting etc.  What's left is the value of your image itself and your post processing.  Charge him that.

[Dave Gurtcheff]

Mike: I have a detailed spread sheet, so I know fairly accurately what it costs me to make a finished product of all the sizes I offer. Subtract that from my selling price and I know my profit from the image only. As an example, let’s assume it costs me $150 to make, mat and frame, etc a certain size print. If I sell  that finished product for $400, it means the image portion is worth $250. Actually the $250 also covers my considerable time and labor for the mounting, matting and framing. But, applying your logic to a metal print, a similar sized metal print costs about $220. Adding the $250 ( assumed image value) to the actual metal print cost of $220 results in a total cost of $470, rounded to $475. Actually, the $475 vs. $400 for a very unique metal presentation, would I think be sale-able here. A somewhat different issue is that my biggest print that I actually print and frame myself is 24”x32” in a 30”x36” frame. Clients, if they want a shiny flush mounted metal print, typically want BIGGER than that. Maybe I could ratio up size (square inches) to cost.
Thanks you provided valuable food for thought.
Dave

[mcbroomf]

If you look at the websites that make prints (of any type) I'm pretty sure that they sell, effectively, by $/sq foot so I think that would work.

[dgberg]

Typically my wholesale metal print clients double the print cost then add a sq. in. price for the image rights. Usually a lower number like .10 per sq. in.
For example 20x30" metal is $219, double that for $438 plus $60 for image rights. Total $498. That is the retail price. Very simple with little math involved. Need more for your image then ramp up that cost per sq. in.
If you use the wholesale price of $175.20 and double it to $350.40 and add your $60 image fee your sale price is $410.40. All depends what you think your maker will bear.

[Dave Gurtcheff]

Thanks Dan. Very, very helpful. Does "Image Rights" allow the buyer to use my image for other purposes?
TO ALL HELPFUL FOLKS HERE: what is your typical workflow for printing?
Mine is
1. Develop raw files using DXO Photolab 8. Applies lens fault corrections, and allows other tweaks to the image
2. Use Photoshop to dodge, burn, replace sky, add gulls, etc.
3. Apply Capture Sharpening. Up res if necessary.  Apply Output Sharpening
4. Print via inkjet
Dan has noticed on my non enlarged file I sent him for metal printing, that there is noise, especially in the sky area. I made full sized ink jet prints, and never really noticed it, but Dan said dye sublimation printer drivers behave a little differently and recommended I think about an additional step of Noise reduction. I have  Topaz Photo AI and Topaz Gigapixel, both of which have noise reduction. But I have read great things about DXO Deep Prime noise reduction built into Photolab. When I tried to use it, it was greyed out (not available). It turns out it only works on RAW files. It means I need to build that step into my work flow very early on. When I combine skies or birds in flight, I needed to build in noise reduction very early on (too late for that)!
Thanks all
Dave

[dgberg]

No.they are not purchasing any image rights to resell unless you personally negotiate that.
It would just be your fee that you need for a particular file. Not everyone does it the same.
The high gloss metal finish seems to enhance anything especially noise. Metal sublimating can take some time to get it right
Why our dye sub workshops are so popular. If you are setting up a new business and have not purchased equipment yet it is the best way to experiment and run tests before buying a shop full of equipment.