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Author Topic: f-stop limits for full sensor resolution  (Read 81289 times)

BJL

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f-stop limits for full sensor resolution
« Reply #140 on: May 08, 2007, 12:21:52 pm »

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... the Bayer CFA deliberately blocks out a lot of light. Each of those red, green and blue filters is supposed to block out a large portion of the other 2 colors, is it not?

What proportion of light is blocked, do you know? Perhaps not as much as 2/3rds but maybe as much as a half. That doesn't sound particularly efficient to me.
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Indeed, that is the source of the hope that an X3 type sensor (one measuring three "colors" at each location) can have higher quantum efficiency and thus a sensitivity advantage at a given resolution level. The question is whether they can in fact achieve significantly higher QE than good CFA designs, given that there is some additional light loss due to the multiple absorption layers needed with X3. The inefficiencies of multiple layer sensors must be weighed against those of CFA's, and I trust experiment over the hand-waving theory of some X3 advocates to make such comparisons.

So here are some QE numbers, for Kodak sensors simply because Kodak lets it all hang out when it comes to sensor spec's, at [a href=\"http://www.kodak.com/US/en/dpq/site/SENSORS/name/ISSProductFamiliesRoot_product]http://www.kodak.com/US/en/dpq/site/SENSOR...iesRoot_product[/url]

The best I have seen so far is Kodak's new MF sensor with micro-lenses and 6.8 micron pixel pitch (most MF sensors lack micro-lenses, which about halves their sensitivity.) For overall luminosity sensitivity, the mid-spectrum green figure is probably the most indicative number.

KAF-31600, as in the H3-31 and the long expected Pentax DMF
QE 43% green, 37% red, 36% blue.

Another slightly older sensor with the same 6.8 micron pixel pitch:

KAF-10500, as in the Leica M8:
QE 40% green, 17% red, 32% blue.
That 17% red is anomolously low, and may be a typo.

An older sensor with smaller 5.4 micron pixel spacing:
KAF-8300, as in the (discontinued) Olympus E-300 and E-500:
Color version QE 40% green, 33% red, 33% blue.
Some new monochrome versions, to show how much light is lost to CFA's:
Monochrome, microlenses, no glass: 60%
Monochrome, microlenses, MAR glass (IR blocking?): 54%
Monochrome, microlenses, clear glass (IR blocking?): 52%
Monochrome, no microlenses, clear glass: 37%
Source: http://www.kodak.com/ezpres/business/ccd/g...300LongSpec.pdf

A new interline CCD with "tiny" 4.75 micron pixel pitch:
KAI-10100:
QE 42% green, 32% red, 40% blue. (Aside: the highest blue QE I have ever seen.)


Monochrome sensors have higher QE, so the QE figures here are as a percentage of all light of all colors, suggesting that they are close to optimal. Being over 1/3 already sounds strange, but there are overlaps in the sensitivity curves, and perhaps "green" pixels in particular are made sensitive to more than one third of visible spectrum to make them more useful as the primary luminance measure, while R and B pixels are mostly used for "chroma" information.


The fact that monochrome sensors only have about 1.5x the sensitivity of CFA ones (60% vs 40% for the KAF-8300) suggest that the X3 advantage might not be so great after all. One possibility I see is that "green" pixels could effectively be "white pixels" giving optimum QE for luminance measurement, with R and B pixels solely for color information. Given the eye's greater resolution of luminance than color (rod vs cone density and cones being single color sensitive) this might be a smarter allocation of resources than X3's "misguided egalitarianism" in treating R, G and B as equally important.
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Ray

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« Reply #141 on: May 09, 2007, 09:26:42 am »

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The fact that monochrome sensors only have about 1.5x the sensitivity of CFA ones (60% vs 40% for the KAF-8300) suggest that the X3 advantage might not be so great after all. One possibility I see is that "green" pixels could effectively be "white pixels" giving optimum QE for luminance measurement, with R and B pixels solely for color information. Given the eye's greater resolution of luminance than color (rod vs cone density and cones being single color sensitive) this might be a smarter allocation of resources than X3's "misguided egalitarianism" in treating R, G and B as equally important.
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Interesting! But perhaps these differences are due to another issue apart from QE, and that's read noise which also affects sensitivity. Do we know that the worse noise performance, at high ISOs, of the Foveon sensor is due entirely to lower quantum efficiency?

For all I know, that higher noise could be entirely due to a lack of whatever technology Canon uses to reduce read noise. Perhaps the implementation of analog pre-amplification is either more difficult with a Foveon design, or would involve the use of patented processes held by Canon; or perhaps the group developing the Foveon sensors simply haven't cracked the problem of high read noise yet.

Nevertheless, revisiting dpreiew test results for the SD9 and SD10, I notice that the SD9 actually produces less noise than the Canon D60 and the SD10 less noise than the Canon 10D, although both Sigma cameras do not boast that highest ISO setting of the Canon cameras, ie. ISO 800 of the D60 and ISO 3200 of the 10D.

I suppose one could also argue that dpreview noise comparisons are on a pixel for pixel basis and that after taking into consideration the greater number of interpolated pixels of the D60 and 10D, the noise levels of the SD9 & SD10 are no better and perhaps slightly worse at the higher ISO setting.

The most obvious feature of the Foveon based cameras is that they're a bit behind in the pixel count race. The 4.6mp SD14 would be equivalent to about 8 or 9 Bayer type megapixels, wouldn't it?
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #142 on: May 09, 2007, 11:46:53 am »

No, more like 6. Foveon pixels are better than interpolated Bayer pixels, but not 2x better. Maybe 1.5x...
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Ray

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« Reply #143 on: May 09, 2007, 08:09:33 pm »

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No, more like 6. Foveon pixels are better than interpolated Bayer pixels, but not 2x better. Maybe 1.5x...
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That's not the impression I'm getting, Jonathan. You might like to have a look at the results of some fairly thorough tests of the SD14 by Mike Chaney, author of Qimage [a href=\"http://www.ddisoftware.com/sd14-5d/]here[/url]

The bottom line is, the Canon 5D has the resolution edge but the SD14 when compared with the 20D delivers more resolution.

In terms of pure resolution, Mike Chaney places the SD14 equivalent to a 10mp Bayer type sensor and in terms of 'less easily defined' image quality, closer to 12mp.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #144 on: May 10, 2007, 12:42:44 pm »

I've done my own comparisons, and simply don't buy the Foveon hype. The Foveon has better color accuracy per pixel, certainly, since no interpolation is being done. But in terms of resolution, and anti-aliasing filter does not halve the effective pixel count of the sensor. With proper sharpening technique, you can get pretty close to single-pixel detail from a Bayer sensor. Optimal sharpening for Foveon and Bayer sensors is different, and any comparison between them that sharpens both files exactly the same is intrinsically flawed.
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Ray

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« Reply #145 on: May 10, 2007, 08:59:09 pm »

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Optimal sharpening for Foveon and Bayer sensors is different, and any comparison between them that sharpens both files exactly the same is intrinsically flawed.
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I'm not sure I quite follow what you did you here. Are you saying:

(1) You compared the Bayer and Foveon sensors using the one sharpening routine which was actually optimal for the Bayer type sensor and therefore produced the result that the Foveon sensor appeared to be the equivalent of only 1.5x the number of Bayer interpolated pixels, or

(2) you compared both sensors using the most appropriate sharpening routine for each system, and despite this careful attention to methodology, found the Foveon sensor was equivalent to only 1.5x the number of Bayer pixels for resolution purposes.

If you did either or both (1) and (2), then one wonders what the result would have been if you had applied a sharpening routine to both sensors which was optimal for the Foveon sensor.

Setting aside such differences in sharpening procedures which will surely cloud the issue because there's probably no agreement on the best sharpening routine for either Bayer type or Foveon type images, it appears to be the case, from general resolution tests at dpreview, that it takes close to 3 Bayer pixels to record the width of one line pair.

If one of two sensors of the same dimensions has double the number of pixels of the other, then it has 1.4x the resolution and 1.4x the number of pixels along each dimension.

The Foveon sensor can record right up to the Nyquist limit (and beyond with a bit of aliasing apparently), ie. it takes just 2 Foveon pixels to record the width of one line pair. Therefore, logically, if it takes 1.4x2=2.8 Bayer pixels to record the same line, this would be approximately in accord with all the dpreview 'absolute' resolution tests for Bayer type systems that I've seen, and would tend to indicate that a Bayer type sensor needs double the pixel count to record the same detail as a Foveon sensor.

Your tests would tend to indicate it takes only 2.4 Bayer type pixels to record one line pair. You should publish the the results   .
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Ray

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« Reply #146 on: May 10, 2007, 10:08:42 pm »

Jonathan,
Just to to be sure I wasn't imagining these dpreview figures, I've just checked the lines-per-picture-height dpreview results for the 10mp Canon 400D.

We get a vertical resolution, across the 14.8mm height of the sensor, of 1800 lines.

(1) 1800/14.8/2= 60.8 lp/mm

(2) The number of pixels along this dimension is 2592.

(3) 2592/14.8/2=87.5 lp/mm

If the 400D sensor were a Foveon type, we could expect a resolution of 87.5 lp/mm which is actually 1.44x greater resolution than the 400D is actually delivering.

To put this another way, to increase resolution by 1.44x you need more than double the number of pixels.

The argument that these are lines right out to the edge of the sensor where resolution is not so good, might be relevant if one were counting vertical lines across the width of the 22.5mm sensor. This why I've looked at the horizontal lines in relation to the height of the sensor. Lenses like the Canon 50/1.4 have a remarkably flat MTF response, at 40 lp/mm and 70% contrast right out to 18mm from the centre, at their sharpest aperture of f8. On a sensor such as the 400D's, the middle of these horizontal lines would not extend beyond 7.4mm from the centre of the image circle.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 10:15:43 pm by Ray »
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bjanes

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« Reply #147 on: May 10, 2007, 10:36:56 pm »

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Setting aside such differences in sharpening procedures which will surely cloud the issue because there's probably no agreement on the best sharpening routine for either Bayer type or Foveon type images, it appears to be the case, from general resolution tests at dpreview, that it takes close to 3 Bayer pixels to record the width of one line pair.

If one of two sensors of the same dimensions has double the number of pixels of the other, then it has 1.4x the resolution and 1.4x the number of pixels along each dimension.

The Foveon sensor can record right up to the Nyquist limit (and beyond with a bit of aliasing apparently), ie. it takes just 2 Foveon pixels to record the width of one line pair. Therefore, logically, if it takes 1.4x2=2.8 Bayer pixels to record the same line, this would be approximately in accord with all the dpreview 'absolute' resolution tests for Bayer type systems that I've seen, and would tend to indicate that a Bayer type sensor needs double the pixel count to record the same detail as a Foveon sensor.

Your tests would tend to indicate it takes only 2.4 Bayer type pixels to record one line pair. You should publish the the results   .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116882\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I performed Imatest analysis for the Sigma SD1 and Canon EOS 400 D in order to compare the Foveon 3.43 sensor with the Canon Bayer array sensor with up to date processing. Both images were downloaded from DPReview and primes at optimum apertures were used, limiting the lens part of the system.

[attachment=2470:attachment]

[attachment=2471:attachment]

The important criterion of perceived sharpness is line pairs/ picture height at 50% contrast (MTF 50) with correction for sharpening (shown in red). The 10MP Canon edges out the Foveon sensor, but not by a large margin (It handily beats the 6MP Nikon D100--not shown). At MTF 50, the Foveon resolves 0.435 cycles/pixel so 2.30 pixels are needed to resolve a line pair. This is outstanding performance, but not enough to make up for its lack of pixels.

The at MTF 50 the Canon resolves 0.368 cycles/pixel so 2.72 pixels are needed to resolve a line pair. It is resolving at about 75% of the Nyquist limit, which is typical good performance in the DPReviews.

As Ray mentioned the Foveon resolves well right up to Nyquist, but it has considerable aliasing since it lacks a blur filter, as shown by response beyond Nyquist, which is mainly due to aliasing but can also seen with excessive sharpening. The Foveon is subject to aliasing just as a Bayer sensor is, but with the Foveon the aliasing is monochrome and less noticeable.
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Ray

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« Reply #148 on: May 11, 2007, 12:07:10 am »

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The 10MP Canon edges out the Foveon sensor, but not by a large margin (It handily beats the 6MP Nikon D100--not shown).

Wait a minute, Bill. You are comparing a Foveon 3.43mp sensor with a Bayer 10mp sensor, right? The 10mp Bayer type edges out the 3.43mp Foveon. Quite understandable!

Extrapolating from the 3.43mp of the SD10 to the 4.6mp of the Sigma SD14, I think we could probably deduce that the SD14 is at least the equal of the 400D, resolution-wise. Right?

Noise is another issue and I'm disappointed there are no thorough comparisons yet(that I can find) of the 400D and SD14.
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Ray

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« Reply #149 on: May 11, 2007, 01:57:10 am »

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Just to to be sure I wasn't imagining these dpreview figures, I've just checked the lines-per-picture-height dpreview results for the 10mp Canon 400D.
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I'm afraid I have to respond to my own statements. When I'm wearing my philosophers's hat, I often realise that what I said in common language is quite absurd. How can I say, "to be sure I wasn't imagining these dpreview figures"?

Everything we know of and experience in any way, however subtle and however painful, or however wonderful, is imagined. If it's not imagined, it doesn't exist.

Those who claim there's a material reality that exists without our imagining it, are in deep trouble. The very claim itself is an act of imagination.

In other words, "I imagine there's a material world out there that is independent of my imagination", is an imaginative response which proves the statement wrong.  

(Just trying to raise the level of intellectual discussion here   ).
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #150 on: May 11, 2007, 08:53:35 am »

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I performed Imatest analysis for the Sigma SD1 and Canon EOS 400 D in order to compare the Foveon 3.43 sensor with the Canon Bayer array sensor with up to date processing. Both images were downloaded from DPReview and primes at optimum apertures were used, limiting the lens part of the system.

...

At MTF 50, the Foveon resolves 0.435 cycles/pixel so 2.30 pixels are needed to resolve a line pair. This is outstanding performance, but not enough to make up for its lack of pixels.

The at MTF 50 the Canon resolves 0.368 cycles/pixel so 2.72 pixels are needed to resolve a line pair. It is resolving at about 75% of the Nyquist limit, which is typical good performance in the DPReviews.

As Ray mentioned the Foveon resolves well right up to Nyquist, but it has considerable aliasing since it lacks a blur filter, as shown by response beyond Nyquist, which is mainly due to aliasing but can also seen with excessive sharpening. The Foveon is subject to aliasing just as a Bayer sensor is, but with the Foveon the aliasing is monochrome and less noticeable.

IMO this is much of the basis for the Foveon hype; people mistaking aliasing artifacts for true image detail. Since Foveon aliasing artifacts aren't neon colors, they aren't brightly-colored-obvious the way Bayer artifacts are. The figures cited here track pretty well with my observations and comparisons; pixel for pixel, a Foveon sensor resolves 1.18x more linear detail than a Bayer sensor, making it equivalent to a Bayer sensor with approximately 1.4x the pixel count. Throw in a little extra for color accuracy due to no interpolation, and 1.5x is pretty reasonable. But 2x is going way too far.
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Ray

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« Reply #151 on: May 11, 2007, 09:54:49 am »

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IMO this is much of the basis for the Foveon hype; [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116942\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Maybe we should notify Phil Askey of dpreview about this. We don't want his spreading misinformation, do we?    

His vertical LPH test for the 3.43mp SD10 is 1550 lines. For the 6mp Canon 10D it's 1450.

If we look at 'extinction' resolution, which would include a lot of aliasing artifacts, it's > 2000 for the SD10 and 1850 for the 10D.
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bjanes

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« Reply #152 on: May 11, 2007, 01:22:46 pm »

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Wait a minute, Bill. You are comparing a Foveon 3.43mp sensor with a Bayer 10mp sensor, right? The 10mp Bayer type edges out the 3.43mp Foveon. Quite understandable!

Extrapolating from the 3.43mp of the SD10 to the 4.6mp of the Sigma SD14, I think we could probably deduce that the SD14 is at least the equal of the 400D, resolution-wise. Right?

Noise is another issue and I'm disappointed there are no thorough comparisons yet(that I can find) of the 400D and SD14.
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Ray,

Yes I am comparing the 3.43MP SD10, since I don't have any test images from the 4.6 MP sensor. As Michael pointed out in his essay on sensors, you really have to double the MP to see a significance difference in linear resolution. The SD10 has a picture height of 1512 pixels, whereas the newer model has a PH of 1760. If one assumes that the newer sensor resolves the same 0.436 cycles/pixel of the older model, then the MTF 50 of the two systems would be 658 lp/ph and 767 lp/ph (1316 and 1534 line widths/picture height). The 400D MTF 50 is 1829 lw/ph, so the Canon wins here on this measure.

Bill
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bjanes

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« Reply #153 on: May 11, 2007, 01:43:45 pm »

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IMO this is much of the basis for the Foveon hype; people mistaking aliasing artifacts for true image detail. Since Foveon aliasing artifacts aren't neon colors, they aren't brightly-colored-obvious the way Bayer artifacts are. The figures cited here track pretty well with my observations and comparisons; pixel for pixel, a Foveon sensor resolves 1.18x more linear detail than a Bayer sensor, making it equivalent to a Bayer sensor with approximately 1.4x the pixel count. Throw in a little extra for color accuracy due to no interpolation, and 1.5x is pretty reasonable. But 2x is going way too far.
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I agree entirely with Jonathan's analysis. The DPReview tests show the Foveon sensors resolving above Nyquist. In his report, Phil did mention that there was some discussion whether they were observing useful detail or aliasing garbage. He decided the former, but I would submit that the latter is more likely.

The Bayer sensors with a blur filter give little MTF at Nyquist as intended. As Norman Koren has pointed out, it does not really make sense to judge detail at the point it disappears. One should really look at the frequencies that most affect perceived sharpness at a given picture size, and these frequencies are lower than commonly thought as explained by [a href=\"http://bobatkins.com/photography/technical/mtf/mtf4.html]Bob Atkins[/url] in his article on subjective quality factor (SQF).

Here are SQF plots derived from Imatest for the Foveon sensor and the Canon EOS 400D:

[attachment=2475:attachment]

[attachment=2476:attachment]

The Canon gives considerably better SQF, but is more dependent on proper sharpening.

Bill
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bjanes

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« Reply #154 on: May 11, 2007, 01:59:02 pm »

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Maybe we should notify Phil Askey of dpreview about this. We don't want his spreading misinformation, do we?   

His vertical LPH test for the 3.43mp SD10 is 1550 lines. For the 6mp Canon 10D it's 1450.

If we look at 'extinction' resolution, which would include a lot of aliasing artifacts, it's > 2000 for the SD10 and 1850 for the 10D.
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The Nyquist limit for the SD 10 is 1512 line widths/picture height and Phil's results are not credible. He is observing aliasing artifacts, which are quite prominent near Nyquist with the Foveon sensor, which lacks an anti-aliasing filter.

He should really upgrade his test methods to the 21st century. He is still using 1950's concepts. His noise tests are similarly non informative. Often he uses JPEGs that have noise reduction turned on and obscure not only the noise but also image detail. His standard deviations from raw captures converted with ACR are more informative, but pixel standard deviations do not take into account the frequency of the noise distribution resulting from differences of pixel density. For a given picture size, as the pixel count increases the noise becomes finer grained.

The test reports at [a href=\"http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/EOS1DS2/1DS2IMATEST.HTM]Imaging Resource[/url] are more up to date.
Bill
« Last Edit: May 11, 2007, 02:05:10 pm by bjanes »
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Ray

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« Reply #155 on: May 12, 2007, 02:45:32 am »

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The Nyquist limit for the SD 10 is 1512 line widths/picture height and Phil's results are not credible. He is observing aliasing artifacts, which are quite prominent near Nyquist with the Foveon sensor, which lacks an anti-aliasing filter.

Fair point, Bill. But Phil Askey has taken a lot of images with the SD10 and Canon 10D with which he compares it. I'm sure he wouldn't have included aliasing artifacts in his figures unless he thought they contibuted something meaningful to the image.

In situations like this where there might be some doubt as to what constitutes real detail as  opposed to artifacts, the printed page is an ideal test target. When the distances and print size are matched so that the print is barely legible, the camera that produces the most legible print is the one with the higher resolving power (assuming equal FoV and lens quality of course).

It matters little if any increased legibility is due to aliasing or includes alisaing or is present despite aliasing. If the print is more legible, or equally legible (whatever the case), that's all that counts.

It's difficult to say whether the SD10 samples in Phil Askey's review indicate that print legibility is the equal of the 10D. There's some indication that the 10D provides more detail than an interpolated SD10 image which has not been sharpened. I'm not sure how significant this is. I know you have mentioned that it's common prcatice to provide a bit of sharpening when interpolating images, but my own experience tends to indicate that sharpening cannot make invisible detail appear. Examing images at 100% to 400% on screen without sharpening is sufficient (for me) to determine the level of detail.

Without descending into nitpicking and extreme pixel peeping, I would be prepared to accept that the 3.43mp SD10 is the equal of the 6mp 10D, which makes the Foveon sensor equal to a Bayer type with 1.75x the number of (interpolated) pixels.

Jonathan reckons 1.5x, ie. a 5mp Bayer sensor. 5 or 6, neither here nor there.

Perhaps we could persuade BJL to hire an SD10 and compare with his 5mp E1   .
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bjanes

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« Reply #156 on: May 12, 2007, 10:23:00 am »

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Fair point, Bill. But Phil Askey has taken a lot of images with the SD10 and Canon 10D with which he compares it. I'm sure he wouldn't have included aliasing artifacts in his figures unless he thought they contibuted something meaningful to the image.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117069\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In all fairness to Phil, he did report that there was much internal debate as to the significance of the "extra detail" offered by the Foveon sensor.

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In situations like this where there might be some doubt as to what constitutes real detail as  opposed to artifacts, the printed page is an ideal test target. When the distances and print size are matched so that the print is barely legible, the camera that produces the most legible print is the one with the higher resolving power (assuming equal FoV and lens quality of course).

It matters little if any increased legibility is due to aliasing or includes alisaing or is present despite aliasing. If the print is more legible, or equally legible (whatever the case), that's all that counts.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117069\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you are photographing high contrast subjects with regularly repeating lines (such as the ISO test chart), then the aliasing of the Foveon sensor does seem to bring out detail, but so does judicious sharpening. In looking at the resolution target, I was struck by how cleanly defined the lines appeared near Nyquist with the Foveon sensor.

However, in our everyday photography we take pictures of naturally occurring scenes, not high contrast test charts with regularly repeating lines. Furthermore, MTF near the Nyquist frequency is of lesser importance to the appearance of the picture than the MTF at lower frequencies, at least for normally sized prints, as shown by the SQF graphs I provided. What did you think of them?

In naturally occurring subjects, aliasing may not be evident, since there are no uniformly repeating features. Indeed, the Leica M8 and medium format sensors often obtain excellent results with aliasing present but not readily seen except when the subject contains regularly repeating features such as seen in the fabric of clothing. However, the aliasing may have degraded the image or it may have actually enhanced the image.

Bill
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Ray

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« Reply #157 on: May 12, 2007, 08:12:08 pm »

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However, in our everyday photography we take pictures of naturally occurring scenes, not high contrast test charts with regularly repeating lines. Furthermore, MTF near the Nyquist frequency is of lesser importance to the appearance of the picture than the MTF at lower frequencies, at least for normally sized prints, as shown by the SQF graphs I provided. What did you think of them?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117105\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, first, I'm not persuaded by the practical benefits of matching camera performance with 'normal' print size. I want the maximum quality I can get on the basis that too much quality for a small print is really no problem but too little quality for a large print definitely is a problem.

I adopt the same approach when scanning film. I'm not interested in scanning a slide at a low resolution suitable say for a postcard size print, in order to save time and storage, whilst putting myself in the position of having to rescan the slide if I or someone else wants a larger print at a later date.

Your SQF graphs seem a bit puzzling. If I'm reading them correctly, they seem to be saying:

(1) The unprocessed 400D image has a higher SQF at all print sizes than the same image sharpened.

(2) The 400D image, whether sharpened or not, has a higher SQF than the sharpened Sigma 10D image, at all print sizes, but the Sigma sharpened image has a higher SQF than its unsharpened version, which is what one would expect.

Generally though, one would not expect the 3.43mp SD10 to compete with the 10mp 400D. I don't think anyone is claiming this.

An often overlooked point about trying to be so precise about such matters, is lens variability. You can see the problem that Imaging Resource had when they tested the SD10. It appeared to be softer than the SD9. They had to repeat the test with another lens.

Strictly speaking, unless you are using the same lens when comparing sensor performance, the results can be no more than a rough guide.

Until recently, my sharpest lens was the el cheapo Canon 50/1.8 II. The question has been raised more than once on this forum whether the more expensive 50/1.4 is noticeably better. A number of contributors posted images comparing the two lenses. The 50/1.4 appeared to be noticeably sharper, even at f8.

On my last trip overseas I was able to pick up a 50/1.4 at a good price. I recently compared both lenses with test charts, textures and printed text at all apertures. My copy of the 50/1.4 is no better than the 50/1.8 II.

Whilst it's true the 50/1.4 gives me a half stop wider aperture, the resolution at f1.4 is truly awful, as is the resolution of the 50/1.8 II at f1.8. I'm just not into the taking of fuzzy images. I wouldn't bother to use either of these lenses at full aperture.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2007, 08:16:08 pm by Ray »
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JeffKohn

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f-stop limits for full sensor resolution
« Reply #158 on: May 13, 2007, 12:55:03 am »

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Generally though, one would not expect the 3.43mp SD10 to compete with the 10mp 400D. I don't think anyone is claiming this.
Sigma claims this.
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Jeff Kohn
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Ray

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f-stop limits for full sensor resolution
« Reply #159 on: May 13, 2007, 04:25:46 am »

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Sigma claims this.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117216\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think you are confusing the discontinued 3.43mp SD10 with Sigma's latest model the 4.6mp SD14.
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