If that is the way that you want to use the words, then essentially you are saying that a lens is diffraction limited when its MTF curves are very close to what you would get from a theoretical calculation based on diffraction effects alone, assuming perfection as far as the "geometrical optics" part of lens performance (no aberrations at all). In that case, none of the MTF curves I have seen fit that, even at f/8 or f/11.
BJL,
What other way is there to use the term, apart from the semantically absurd, "slightly diffraction limited', moderately 'diffraction limited' etc.?
Somewhere on Photodo's site there is (or was) an explanation as to why they did not test lenses at f11. The reason given was, the Photodo team considered all lenses equally bad at f11. Perhaps not to be taken literally, but I think we could interpret that as meaning the differences at f11 amongst all good lenses are so slight that the time, trouble and expense of carrying out MTF tests could not be justified.
My understanding of the term 'diffraction limitation' is not dependent on the condition that the lens should be absolutely free of all other aberrations, but that such aberrations are
insignificant compared with the magnitude of the Airy discs.
A good analogy might be 'sensor resolution limitation'. When a sensor's resolution is limited by its pixel density, we do not assume that finer detail does not exist, ie. cannot be transmitted by the lens. We know that detail that is smaller than the pixel simply cannot be recorded by such a sensor. Likewise, aberrations that are smaller than the Airy discs, or that are swamped and effectively completely obscured by the effects of the Airy discs, may still exist, but are not relevant with regard to the recorded image. Those are the conditions for diffraction limitation.
But I repeat my question: if the overall overall resolution keeps rising as one stops downs from f/11 to f/8 to f/5.6 and even to f/4, what is the possible practical significance of whether or not it is truly diffraction limited at f/8, or f/11? The only one I can see is telling me that it is futile to seek resolution improvement at that combination of focal length and aperture by upgrading to a better lens.
It matters in proportion to how closely the resolution at f8 reaches that diffraction limited ideal. I get the impression that the lenses that are closest to being diffraction limited at f8 are the ones that deliver even greater resolution as one stops up to f5.6 and f4, but it's not always the case. You should know better than I do that lenses can be optimised for sharpest results at a particular aperture.
An example would be the Canon 400/2.8 II USM. This lens (or at least the copy that Photodo tested) is sharpest at full aperture of f2.8. Wow! And this is not just sharp in the centre but extends almost to the very edges. The lens has remarkably similar performance at f2.8 to the 50/1.4 at f8.
Unfortunately, this 400/2.8 does not have IS. The IS version does not come near to matching this performance at full aperture, but both lenses are about the same at f8. What does it matter? If you owned both of these lenses would you not experience a degree of indecision .
Let's suppose the 400/2.8 IS version was actually diffraction limited at f8. It would be noticeably sharper at f8 than the non-IS lens at full aperture. The IS would largely compensate for the slower shutter speed at f8, and if not, an extra stop of ISO would. The images at f8 would be noticeably sharper at the point of focus. The focus point would not be quite as critical because of the greater DoF, yet the DoF would still be fairly shallow if that quality was desired.
What is absolutely does not tell me is that this diffraction limited threshold dictates the maximum possible resolution. To think so would be in the spirit of Mhyrvold's error.
Of course not. Where have I implied that? The diffraction limited threshold dictates the maximum possible resolution
at a specified f stop.
It is a common characteristic of design optimization that the best solution is one in which the several greatest imperfections are roughly in balance (like diffraction and aberration effects roughly equal), so that further reducing one requires increasing the other by a greater amount, making the overall result worse, not better.
It is instead a characteristic of dilettantish technical discussions to insist on an ideal of reducing one particular imperfection like aberrations, shadow noise, or camera weight as much as possible, or to completely insignificant levels, not matter how much other imperfections must be increased in the process.
Get off your soap box, BJL . I merely make the point that the best 35mm lenses cannot quite manage diffraction limitation at f8. Lesser quality 35mm lenses are not even close.
(Lately, in this misguided over-simplification of seeking a single measure of technical excellence, one debate is whether resolution limits or shadow noise at high ISO is "the" single enemy that should be focussed on exclusively.)
Since my views are supported by the hundreds of MTF measurements that are shown on Photodo's MTF charts, I don't see how you can accuse
me of seeking a single measure. But the single (weighted) measure can be a useful, quick summary.
The development of high resolution sensors with low shadow noise is definitely the way forward, but lenses have to keep up. Ever since the introduction of the fairly low pixel density 1Ds, photographers have been grumbling about the inadequacy of lenses, so much so that some people seem to have arrived at the erroneous conclusion that further pixel density will serve no purpose.