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Author Topic: Is this the beginning of the end...?  (Read 3714 times)

stevebri

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Is this the beginning of the end...?
« on: April 07, 2023, 01:39:32 pm »

As a happy C1 22 user I am, like many who have spoken out recently, quite shocked at the direction Capture One is going.  I haven't said anything much, I've no need as many are saying it for me.

The bottom line is I have a perpetual licence for version 22 and after the latest stance by C1, will not be giving them any more of my money.  I don't 'need' the latest bells and whistles etc, in fact, after reading a couple of blogs, I'm looking at Adobe again, I'm in no rush, my workflow works for me and as we often say, 'if it aint broke....'

I get the feeling many C1 customers don't feel the love these days and are planning to not spend with them in the future too.  Plus 'some' are opening their eyes wide as Lightroom and Photoshop have really been breaking new ground recently.

If regular customers just stop buying their product, is there a stream bursting with new customers to replace us, happy to pay twice as much to subscribe to C1 and NOT get Photoshop thrown in...?

Just some thoughts, Happy Easter.

Steve
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Paul2660

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2023, 07:53:15 am »

I agree that overall it appears that C1’s focus is elsewhere and their latest licensing moves disappointing. However until LR has the same color adjustment capability as C1 I will stay with them. LR still will not allow local color adjustments within a layer something C1 has and does well. On the other hand C1’s masking tools are now IMO dated and have been surpassed by Adobe in LR. Would love to see C1 have a select sky option something common to most raw conversion software now.

And Adobe still has limited raw conversion support for a Phase One products. Their raw conversion for the 3100 and IQ4 are terrible.

Paul
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stevebri

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2023, 12:17:27 pm »

Some very good points Paul.

For me its more about skin, though I did have to match a violet bikini bottom to a green top last week, first time ever and I was pleased with it, but normally I'm cleaning up an image or taking it into Affinity/CS6 to do 'proper' skin work.  I shoot mostly with a D850 these days and using a colorchecker can get a great, accurate base for my jobs, also I can make the skin slightly more MF in look if needed but that's going off topic.

I'm in no rush to change anything but I will keep an eye on the competition.

Thanks again for your reply and input Paul.

Steve
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gazwas

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2023, 08:29:33 am »

C1 is going the same way as the camera division. The MFD section of this forum used to be abuzz with members, now its like a ghost town as many stopped upgrading or completely left medium format when upgrade pricing was massively reduced and their cameras became even more expensive.

I keep checking Capture One's site for Version 23 updates and improvements, poised to upgrade my licence but nearly 5½ months since release and there has been nothing but UI and camera/lens support. Just business as usual with none of the promised "quicker updates" given as one of the reasons from going subscription only.

C1 is a fine product that does some things that Adobe just can't match (yet) but the gap keep closing. Prior to 2022, I had almost completely ignored LR since version 2 as I felt no need to stray away from Capture One (even despite being an Adobe photo plan subscriber) but LR now provides so many powerful tools its now a case of using both concurrently depending of the project I'm working on.

I happily allow Adobe to take my money every month while Capture One just feels stagnant and has done for a couple of years now.

The subscription only route does not bother me in the slightest but C1 was once an unchallenged, amazing piece of software that now seems to be owned and run by people who have totally lost their way. Just communicate better with photographers about the future and what they are working on. And stop meandering around with constant UI changes and half baked new features that never get expanded upon past initial release.

Maybe ask your users what they want fixed/improved instead.
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StephaneB

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2023, 08:28:32 am »

I used C1 a bit more than a year a few years ago, thinking I had found a way out of subscription software and liking C1 editing tools a lot. I was on Windows at the time and like many people had terrible performance problems with the DAM part. The support came back with the suggestion of storing everything on SSD. That and the weakness of the print module in CA compared to Lightroom made me switch back.

Now C1 is subscription-based as well andI must admit Adobe has delivered on the promise of regular product improvements, making their products more and more impressive. I have totally accepted the subscription model and the fact that there is now no product able to compete at the level of Lightroom.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2023, 05:14:05 pm »

As I saw Adobe go to an exclusively subscription-based service, and as I now see Capture One heading that way, and I see our accounting software go exclusively online only, it is clear that this is the way that most/all software has/is/will move. So I cannot truly find fault with Capture One for this, in that they have portrayed some sort of a betrayal of sorts.

I do believe they have handled this transition very clumsily, and if anything, they get an F for PR.

While we haven't see much in the way of interim feature releases (vs bug fix or camera compatibility releases), they only recently reiterated this path forward, and I'm sure this will come.

The bottom line for me is that if Capture One occupies the spot as my preferred raw conversion program (which it does), then it takes more than just mangling their transition to subscription to make me change.

I'm only saying this is how I see it and approach it, not saying anyone else should feel this way. My perspective only.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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Chris_Brown

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2023, 05:48:19 pm »

As I saw Adobe go to an exclusively subscription-based service, and as I now see Capture One heading that way, and I see our accounting software go exclusively online only, it is clear that this is the way that most/all software has/is/will move.

And soon subscription “services” will be in cars.  :-\

https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/13/23206999/car-subscription-nightmare-heated-seats-remote-start
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alain

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2023, 06:18:13 pm »


As far as I read it C1 is still available as a good old perpetual license. 

I do agree that their marketing is rather bad, to say the least.


BTW. The fact that you have to reactivate the software if a disk (even a usb external one) is added or removed, is also a disaster.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2023, 04:23:14 am »

While we haven't see much in the way of interim feature releases (vs bug fix or camera compatibility releases), they only recently reiterated this path forward, and I'm sure this will come.

I keep reading of people that have re-evaluated what CO has delivered in recent years and whether it is likely to improve and start delivering new features to catch up with the competition. Few are so optimistic that things will suddenly, or even slowly, change.
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gazwas

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2023, 07:54:02 am »

I keep reading of people that have re-evaluated what CO has delivered in recent years and whether it is likely to improve and start delivering new features to catch up with the competition. Few are so optimistic that things will suddenly, or even slowly, change.

Steve either has inside info (unlikely) or has this optimistic opinion very much due to being a Phase One dealer. And quite understandably so.

I've just been looking back and apart from the obsessive (and un-necessary) need for UI changes in virtually every update the big improvements stopped at version 20.

Capture One in the last three years got a lack lustre HDR/Pano stitching feature that has sat unloved and unimproved for way over 12 months and a hand full of small usability features that may speed up editing for some bulk shooting users.

If C1 wants to be a software company then they really need to do it properly and rather than using its profits to prop up the camera side of the company, plough it into the development of its iOS and desktop software.

When I see the release of yet another flagship Phase One XT lens aimed at a tiny number of users, it breaks my heart to read the release notes in a full point release of their once unrivalled software getting Apple ProRaw File Support. 
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2023, 11:48:57 am »

I keep reading of people that have re-evaluated what CO has delivered in recent years and whether it is likely to improve and start delivering new features to catch up with the competition. Few are so optimistic that things will suddenly, or even slowly, change.

In some ways they are ahead of the competition and in some ways they are behind the competition. If what you need from Capture One is lacking compared to their competitors, then I would imagine you are already using their competitor, and I can see no reason why you would change.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2023, 12:03:16 pm »

Steve either has inside info (unlikely) or has this optimistic opinion very much due to being a Phase One dealer. And quite understandably so.

I've just been looking back and apart from the obsessive (and un-necessary) need for UI changes in virtually every update the big improvements stopped at version 20.

Capture One in the last three years got a lack lustre HDR/Pano stitching feature that has sat unloved and unimproved for way over 12 months and a hand full of small usability features that may speed up editing for some bulk shooting users.

If C1 wants to be a software company then they really need to do it properly and rather than using its profits to prop up the camera side of the company, plough it into the development of its iOS and desktop software.

When I see the release of yet another flagship Phase One XT lens aimed at a tiny number of users, it breaks my heart to read the release notes in a full point release of their once unrivalled software getting Apple ProRaw File Support.


I don't know that I am optimistic, but my reasoning is based on previous history, but dating back quite some time. I do agree that in recent years, we've seen fewer earth shaking developments. They've certainly shown they have the talent to do so. But yes, coinciding with their independence from the hardware side (and I do not see them propping up hardware at all, or chained to that. They very much have their own singular charter) and attempting to operate as a viciously focused software company, that has oddly been where the teething issues seem to have begun. Where one would expect that's where they would have been expected to take off, being freed from the yoke of the hardware.

The Pano tool is one good example as something we would expect to see improved by now, but there are many examples. I do think they need to kick it up a notch, because what they are trying to do is take market share from Adobe, and the way to do that is to create a dramatically enhanced editing experience for non-tethered camera users. For that matter, their competition grows in that space as other software platforms improve (DXO, etc.). My target market is Phase One users, yes, who are going to use Capture One regardless, but also anyone using any Fuji/Leica camera for whom shooting tethered is important, schools, and also large volume retail studios, for whom tethering is essential.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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Rhossydd

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2023, 12:54:24 pm »

because what they are trying to do is take market share from Adobe,
Ha ha ha, that's a lost cause now.
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gazwas

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2023, 05:20:22 pm »


My target market is Phase One users, yes, who are going to use Capture One regardless, but also anyone using any Fuji/Leica camera for whom shooting tethered is important, schools, and also large volume retail studios, for whom tethering is essential.


I consider myself in that target market of tethered shooters yet here I am, still on version 21 (had to upgrade from v20 for Apple Silicon support). So, for as long as 21 still functions perfectly, I see zero reason to had over any more money for software that offers very little over what I use now. For a software company, that is seriously bad news.

I might add that prior new versions were paid for without hesitation every single year since Capture One Pro’s introduction. I’m pretty sure I won’t be alone.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2023, 09:21:06 pm »

I consider myself in that target market of tethered shooters yet here I am, still on version 21 (had to upgrade from v20 for Apple Silicon support). So, for as long as 21 still functions perfectly, I see zero reason to had over any more money for software that offers very little over what I use now. For a software company, that is seriously bad news.

I might add that prior new versions were paid for without hesitation every single year since Capture One Pro’s introduction. I’m pretty sure I won’t be alone.


I share some of those feelings. There has not been anything in recent versions that I have found really exciting. But I have been involved with enough products from numerous companies long enough to have seen many periods of lapses, poor performance, weak updates, screw-ups, etc, and what I often see are those jumping at the bit to write companies off, and invariably, most companies that have established a position and demonstrated a proven prior track record of impressive releases come out of their funk and get back on track and surprise with strong products. So I am generally hesitant to fuel that fire and my perspective is more on tamping the knee jerk brakes and giving them some time to get their act together. But yes, the clock is always ticking.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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gazwas

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2023, 07:00:46 am »


I share some of those feelings. There has not been anything in recent versions that I have found really exciting. But I have been involved with enough products from numerous companies long enough to have seen many periods of lapses, poor performance, weak updates, screw-ups, etc, and what I often see are those jumping at the bit to write companies off, and invariably, most companies that have established a position and demonstrated a proven prior track record of impressive releases come out of their funk and get back on track and surprise with strong products. So I am generally hesitant to fuel that fire and my perspective is more on tamping the knee jerk brakes and giving them some time to get their act together. But yes, the clock is always ticking.


Steve Hendrix/CI

Indeed, I'm in no way wishing any photography/video related company any bad vibes or ill feelings but you sometimes feel you must chip in with the small hope that the people at Phase One/Capture One might get to hear how frustrated their previously very happy customers now feel.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2023, 10:09:45 am »

Indeed, I'm in no way wishing any photography/video related company any bad vibes or ill feelings but you sometimes feel you must chip in with the small hope that the people at Phase One/Capture One might get to hear how frustrated their previously very happy customers now feel.


100% Agree. Can you imagine if no one said anything negative about the Export Tab changes with v22? Yikes. They need the feedback and I am all for that. I just stop short of reinforcing a narrative of demise and predicting doom and gloom and instead try to stay focused on presenting my grievances as line items.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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gazwas

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2023, 10:40:06 am »


100% Agree. Can you imagine if no one said anything negative about the Export Tab changes with v22? Yikes. They need the feedback and I am all for that. I just stop short of reinforcing a narrative of demise and predicting doom and gloom and instead try to stay focused on presenting my grievances as line items.


Steve Hendrix/CI

WOW, the export tab!  :-[

Or the terrible sub menu way of creating and applying LCC’s that they then thought was such a great method so went with using it for the new HDR and Pano features.
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spassig

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2023, 10:47:40 am »

Why new CO?

I install some days before CO21 (V 14.4.1.16) on my new Mac Studio with macOS 13.2.1 (Ventura).
it works !?
(But I don't have lot of editing yet).

Have someone experience with this combination?

Jochen
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gazwas

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Re: Is this the beginning of the end...?
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2023, 07:15:45 pm »

Why new CO?

I install some days before CO21 (V 14.4.1.16) on my new Mac Studio with macOS 13.2.1 (Ventura).
it works !?
(But I don't have lot of editing yet).

Have someone experience with this combination?

Jochen

Hi Jochen.

C1 21 is functioning just fine with my M1 MBP and M2 Pro Mini both on MacOS 13.3 and have had no issues using sessions and tethered capture. 

Is there something specific you would like to know?
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