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Author Topic: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)  (Read 1830 times)

nemophoto

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Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« on: January 05, 2023, 06:07:00 pm »

Early on, the new masking tool seemed great in LR, especially the "select subject". Over the past month, I have noticed the inability to find and mask a subject. In some instances, it can't find the subject at all. In others, it creates a "mask", but there is nothing in that mask. I have tried it with a multitude of images: where the subject is clearly in focus the background out, significant color differences between the subject and background, and various permutations of those things.

In Photoshop, selecting Select>Subject yields the same end result for many of the same images.  I never had that issue previously. My Lightroom is the latest version. I then experiment with some scenics. It could seem to find the sky. Even trying to select a lone tree against a neutral sky/background yields a very weird selection. In Lightroom, I literally tried it on more than 25 different photos, ones where the photo had an obvious person, and others where it was an object. Frequently, if it DID find something, the masking was weird and incomplete: selecting part of a shirt, an out-of-focus tree, part of an arm. It doesn't seem to matter if the image is 4MP, 30MP, or 45 or 50MP.

I went all the way back to PS 2021 to find Select subject that actually worked for me. When I chose the subject from a recent commercial shoot, I got the marching ants. With 2023 and 2022 I did not. I got nothing. I opened the same tiff file in Lightroom and again, it failed to select a subject.

Anyone else come across this anomoly? Makes me glad I always keep older copies of PS on my system. I wish I had done teh same with Lightroom.
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nemophoto

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2023, 08:39:18 pm »

I did screenshots of a photo from a recent shoot where the subject is very clearly defined. I used Select>Subject in both PS 2021 and PS 2023. After selecting the subject, I used the Quick Mask option to show what had been selected. As can be seen, the subject was never selected in PS 2023 (the entire frame shows a red mask) whereas in PS 2021 the subject has clearly been selected.

I decided to use the same image in Lightroom 12.1 and in Develop, I tried to create a mask using "Subject". As can be seen, LR selected a weird block near the model's feet... and nothing else.

And this is why I hate the Adobe subscription model; they bring out new versions and break other things in the process. I did not have this issue in either of the older versions of Photoshop or Lightroom.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2023, 06:26:26 pm »

I've not used subject masking much, but the other AI masking options don't seem to have changed much with the newer version. It seems there are some images that the AI just can't get at all, others that it masks amazingly well.

For images where subject masking doesn't work, you may find object masking a better option. Fractionally more time consuming, but I've found it pretty good on everything I've tried it on so far.
Worth watching this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo8Sidcm3nI
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simon.garrett@iee.org

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2023, 04:06:49 am »

Perhaps you could post the image so we can investigate and see if we get the same results?
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digitaldog

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2023, 12:23:21 pm »

Perhaps you could post the image so we can investigate and see if we get the same results?
Indeed, post a DNG from the raw, with all your corrections to something like Dropbox.
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nemophoto

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2023, 11:32:05 am »

Sure, I can post a DNG within the next few days and create a link. The above images were taken from my final TIFF for the client, but the results were the same in LR. The strange thing is, PS 2021, as a counterpoint, has no difficulty picking up and isolating a subject. Neither PS 2022 nor 2023 can seem to do this "simple" task. By the same token, Topaz Mask AI can silhouette the subject I showed without a problem if you select "Mask Subject". Opening the original RAW image in PS 2021, using Camera RAW, I received the error "Couldn't fins a subject to select". But once that image is opened in Photoshop, using Select>Subject, it has no problem finding the subject.

Doing the same thing in PS 2023 with ACR yielded the same result. If I try masking based on ACR seeing a person in the frame, it creates a mask as a rectangular block. Trying the same Select>Subject in PS 2023 yielded the error "Couldn't find a subject to select. There might not be prominent objects in the image". This is clearly not the case. I chose to zero in on this particular image because it would have extraneous details as might be found in a location shot.

Clearly, the AI Select Subject is broken and has been for a while. Clearly, it's broken in ACR which is why it isn't working in Lightroom since both are generally the same RAW engine.
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mcbroomf

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2023, 06:38:56 pm »

In PS the Subject AI mask processing can be done locally or via the Cloud (supposed to be more accurate).  The change is in the Preferences, explained here towards the end of the video
https://jkost.com/blog/2022/11/using-the-object-selection-tool-to-quickly-edit-images-in-photoshop.html

Might be worth checking both options on several instances of PS.
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nemophoto

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2023, 09:40:05 pm »

Thanks. I'll take a look. But honestly, I HATE anything that forces me to use a tool or app online. It's the reason I use a computer, not a phone (for instance). I can't imagine why "the Cloud" would be, or should be, more accurate. Will be interesting to see the video.
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digitaldog

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2023, 10:47:46 pm »

Thanks. I'll take a look. But honestly, I HATE anything that forces me to use a tool or app online. It's the reason I use a computer, not a phone (for instance). I can't imagine why "the Cloud" would be, or should be, more accurate. Will be interesting to see the video.
You're missing the increase in capabilities by doing so. Which is part of your complaint about the feature.
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mcbroomf

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2023, 04:34:44 am »

Thanks. I'll take a look. But honestly, I HATE anything that forces me to use a tool or app online. It's the reason I use a computer, not a phone (for instance). I can't imagine why "the Cloud" would be, or should be, more accurate. Will be interesting to see the video.

It's invisible to you.  Just check the box and see if you get better (or worse!) masking.

The whole (short) video is worth checking out.  Julieanne is a great teacher.
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nemophoto

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2023, 07:01:08 pm »

I tried the object selection tool. Same incredibly poor results. For an obvious subject, it just displaces a box, regardless of whether I use the lasso or rectangle. Here's what it did on another studio shot. It was originally a 6' wide instore poster, so I reduced it to 24" wide. Still lots of detail for selection at that size and res. I tried using the "cloud" option and it just reverted back to "device". Either way, very poor results for something that should be easy. No such issues with PS 2021. Yes, Julianne is a great teacher, however, in my case, PS does not act as expected or desired.
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digitaldog

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2023, 07:04:30 pm »

Can you explain: “It was originally a 6' wide instore poster, so I reduced it to 24" wide”.?
It's a raw right? How did you reduce it?
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2023, 08:30:31 pm »

Hi,

I just downloaded the image you attached and run object selection on PS (latest version, 24.1.0), and it did a fair job at first try. A few details to be corrected, but overall is good.

nemophoto

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2023, 08:57:51 pm »

Can you explain: “It was originally a 6' wide instore poster, so I reduced it to 24" wide”.?
It's a raw right? How did you reduce it?

The was the final TIFF image for the client. All the work had been done on the RAW in LR and refined in PS and upressed for final printing by the client. I reduced it to 24" wide to try the object selection tool as outlined in the video since I wanted to see what the supposed advantage was for Cloud processing, I didn't want a 935MB file to work with, so I reduced the size. It was reduced using PS resize. The original upres was Topaz Gigapixel.
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digitaldog

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2023, 08:59:40 pm »

The was the final TIFF image for the client. All the work had been done on the RAW in LR and refined in PS and upressed for final printing by the client.
Why are you not testing subject masking in LR & PS on raw for which it's designed?
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nemophoto

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2023, 09:05:52 pm »

Hi,

I just downloaded the image you attached and run object selection on PS (latest version, 24.1.0), and it did a fair job at first try. A few details to be corrected, but overall is good.

Glad it worked for you. I used the exact same image (the screenshot) and ended up with the same weird rectangle around the model, but no accurate selection.
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2023, 09:10:54 pm »

I tried the image in LR (latest version) and got a good result too. Can you try another computer? There might be something wrong with your current install.

nemophoto

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2023, 09:21:05 pm »

Why are you not testing subject masking in LR & PS on raw for which it's designed?

For the reason that it was a total failure when I was originally working in LR and then tried it in PS. See the attached screenshots working with the RAW in both LR and PS. I then opened and reduced the size of the TIFF in PS 2021 and used "Object Select" rectangle tool and... it obviously worked. So, as my post originally indicated, there's something broken (at least on my computer) trying to use the Object Select tool or Subject Select in PS 2022 and PS 2023. This is the reason I often keep multiple generations of PS on my computer. I probably should do the same with Lightroom.
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digitaldog

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Re: Subject masking in LR & PS a mess (at least for me)
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2023, 09:22:05 pm »

For the reason that it was a total failure when I was originally working in LR and then tried it in PS.
Again, upload a raw and let us examine what may be the issue here. Including using Adobe servers to do the job.
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nemophoto

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