Colorbyte ImagePrint Black in 2022

[budjames]

I use Capture One Pro, now at version 22, for all of my image editing and printing needs. I've been a longtime Epson fan so my current printer is the excellent Epson P900 (17").

I am curious to hear from any Colorbyte ImagePrint Black users, especially if printing to an Epson printer, about why they use this software and have they seen an improvement in the resulting print quality.

Thanks in advance for sharing.

Happy New Year!

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography.

[greyscale]

budjames, was just looking at the Imageprint site. FWIW, the application does not support Win 11, or Mac 12. The P900 (I have) is not listed in the supported Epson printers list. The user guide is dated 2019???.
That "other site" is preparing some videos on Imageprint soon.

greyscale

[MichaelKoerner]

Greyscale,

sorry to correct you, but according to Colorbyte's facebook site, P700 and P900 are supported since 04/2021.

As to Bud's question, I have access to IPB11 on a P800 and a 7800 since a couple of days, but have not tested on visual differences to standard Epson drivers yet.

In my understanding, the advantages of IP over standard drivers nowadays are more about reliability/convenience, b&w/toning (softproof!) and automation, but as I said, I will have to test that for myself yet.

My current print "sources" are LR for quick prints, InDesign/Acrobat for more complex layouts, Print-Tool w/ QTR or Epson Advanced BW w/ Epson Print Layout for B&W, QImage for gallery wraps and roll paper. I'm used to creating my own ICC profiles.

Excited to see whether the rather costly IP could ease my life by reducing the number of workflows... And whether the Colorbyte profiles would outplayd my own ones ;-)

What do you expect from using ImagePrint?

[digitaldog]

In my understanding, the advantages of IP over standard drivers nowadays are more about reliability/convenience, b&w/toning (softproof!) and automation, but as I said, I will have to test that for myself yet.

All of which you can do for free using Epson Print Layout. Even soft proof their proprietary Advanced B&W unlike the standard Epson print driver.
Well over a decade ago, before Advanced B&W, IP was the only game in town for this kind of output, free of metameric errors etc. No longer.
And even despite the price (and a slightly better dither), at the time, it was a major PITA to setup, I recall spending two days with Photogapher Greg Gorman doing this under OS9! We got it to work, but man, messy.
As for the ColorByte profiles, I certatinly hope they improved the rendering of blues from the time I was using it (last version, way back with Version 6, still have a dongle). Blues shifting magenta isn't my idea of good rendering but perhpas they fixed that.

What do you expect from using ImagePrint?

Excellent quesiton!

[dkaufman]

I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but I tested Imageprint carefully about a year ago, comparing it's output to the standard Epson driver using my SC P-9000 in highest quality, extra detail (720dpi) mode, and found no improvement. I tried high resolution (720dpi) prints in colour and B&W, and also standard resolution (360dpi) files, all taken from very high quality Phase One files or very high resolution film scans (4x5 inch originals, 5500 ppi scans). Imageprint prints were no diffferent either as to perceived detail (even under high magnification) or colour rendition, either in colour or B&W. The only area of difference is that Imageprint always uses highest detail available in the driver (720 dpi), so in smaller prints you need to use Epson's higher detail setting to match. I am only addressing issues of print quality, not other features of Imageprint such as included profiles or layout options, for instance. It definitely may offer more convenience for certain complex tasks, but even that is not certain.

In another test I did using Epson's accounting pricing tool which shows exact ink usage for a given print, I tested ABW versus printing in B&W from an RGB file, to see if there was a difference in use of colour inks among the three grey inks. While the ABEW print used some colour inks and the RGB version of the same B&W print used slightly different colour inks, both types of prints used about the same amount of coloured ink, one type using slightly more cyan versus light cyan, or more light black versus light light black. There was no real pattern to it. So the opinion held by some that printing in ABW uses less coloured ink is just a myth. I find printing from RGB when making B&W prints is more predictable and more controllable, and I can rely on Photoshop to manage "colour" and any toning.

That has been my experince for these two questions.  Best wishes to all,

David Kaufman    www.davidkaufmanphotography.com

[D White]

I am absolutely no expert.

I bought image print several years ago after getting my Canon Prograf-2000. The canned profiles for several papers I was using were really obviously bad, with better results using a profile for a similar paper.

I thought about buying a spectro vs imageprint, which was basically identical in price. I guessed that making good profiles was going to have a significant learning curve and be as much art as science. I just wanted to make prints and not have endless experimentation.

The demo of imageprint did have both better shadow separation and better saturation, without loosing detail, than my best canned profile results. I also saw consistency across paper types. I don't think the dither was any better.

What are others thoughts on learning to use a spectro, such as an i1 Pro2?

[unesco]

ColorByte software that I have tried for 17" Epsons I have did't give me better results than well made icc profile and understandable usege of Epson driver. An those color shifts as that Andrew mentioned were also disappointing.

In another test I did using Epson's accounting pricing tool which shows exact ink usage for a given print, I tested ABW versus printing in B&W from an RGB file, to see if there was a difference in use of colour inks among the three grey inks. While the ABEW print used some colour inks and the RGB version of the same B&W print used slightly different colour inks, both types of prints used about the same amount of coloured ink, one type using slightly more cyan versus light cyan, or more light black versus light light black. There was no real pattern to it. So the opinion held by some that printing in ABW uses less coloured ink is just a myth. I find printing from RGB when making B&W prints is more predictable and more controllable, and I can rely on Photoshop to manage "colour" and any toning.

I think it might be opposite and this is not a myth - there is much less color inks used in ABW mode. I have checked it several times using microscope showing exact dots put on paper once I was also examining how QTR works and how it compares to ABW and ICC. I do not have those images with me now but it was clearly visible that inking strategy is very different for ABW and ICC based B&W printing.

[Ryan Mack]

What are others thoughts on learning to use a spectro, such as an i1 Pro2?

In my opinion, it comes down to where you want to spend your time. I use ImagePrint with my Canon Pro-4000 because it's convenient to have someone else build profiles for me.  I used to do my own profiles with a i1 Pro2 with both commercial software and ArgyllCMS and printing through Canon Print Studio Pro. In the end to me printing is an iterative process and both give a good starting point to work from. John at ColorByte has been talking about big upgrades for ImagePrint Black for Canon for years. It's gotten better but it's nothing magic and it has a few annoyances. You won't see any difference in dither on Canon because it goes through the same driver unlike the older Epsons.

[digitaldog]

ColorByte software that I have tried for 17" Epsons I have did't give me better results than well made icc profile and understandable usege of Epson driver. An those color shifts as that Andrew mentioned were also disappointing.

I think it might be opposite and this is not a myth - there is much less color inks used in ABW mode. I have checked it several times using microscope showing exact dots put on paper once I was also examining how QTR works and how it compares to ABW and ICC. I do not have those images with me now but it was clearly visible that inking strategy is very different for ABW and ICC based B&W printing.

Correct, not a myth. The mode uses less inks and is more archival. All according to Epson.

[Ryan Mack]

As it happens I was rehabbing my old 3880 yesterday and doing some test prints in preparation for switching to Piezography. I was happiest with the tone curves using AB&W but it clearly was printing in 8 bit and had more banding in some subtle gradations. Anybody know if there's a way around that or do I just need to go add some noise to image like the old days?

[unesco]

I think 8 bit is enough in printing, at least as far I have tried in the last 10 years in number of studio portraits/nudes as well as landscape photography prints (both from digital and analog). The best results I have received came from use of QTR with standard Epson K3 inks. Then there was ABW in P800, then ABW in 3880.
But the best curves I have ever made was a bit warm one for QTR K3 on Harman Gloss Baryta Warmtone paper, mostly used for landscapes.
It is important to have well aligned print head for bi-dir printing or just print unidirectional, preferably in 2880. Hope it helps.

[digitaldog]

I've printed a 16-bit and 8-bit target through a 3880 (Mac only BTW) and measured both on an iSis XL; the deltaE difference is well below 1; invisible difference. The old Mac only option does nothing.
Epson removed that driver option on my newer printer for obvious reasons.

[Ryan Mack]

In general I agree with you. This is a weird case. Heavily OOF background that I gaussian blurred to eliminate any noise. Printing with AB&W you get banding. Maybe it's because it converts to 8 bit before it applies a tone curve and thus magnifies some of the differences. Maybe it's just the dithering ends up with a weird pattern in it because of the uniformity of the color in these blobby shapes. But in any case there's definitely a weird banded pattern. Adding a tiny bit of noise will fix it but that's an extra step I didn't have to do with my non-AB&W prints. Actually maybe just converting to 8 bit in PS before printing would be sufficient. I don't really remember if photoshop adds dithering when it reduces bit depth or not but that might be enough.

[digitaldog]

Actually maybe just converting to 8 bit in PS before printing would be sufficient. I don't really remember if photoshop adds dithering when it reduces bit depth or not but that might be enough.

Dither depends on the color settings.
Most print drivers are 8-bit print path, no matter what bit depth you first send.
Ultimately, at least with the 3880, the options do absolutely nothing. 

[digitaldog]

All according to Epson.

Here's what I just found:

The Epson Advanced Black and White printer driver mode is a different printing method from our standard AccuPhoto HD or HDR mode.
ABW is a 12-bit mathematical algorithm designed to convert color or grayscale data into a black and white print.  We only use six colors to produce this screening and color management print mode.
Mark Radogna
Group Product Manager, Professional Imaging

[Rhossydd]

What are others thoughts on learning to use a spectro, such as an i1 Pro2?

It’s not particularly difficult, despite the impression you might get from some folk.
Watch a couple of tutorials and stick to the defaults and you can get decent profiles for most ordinary situations very easily.
Once you’ve got the kit it’s easy to fall into the rabbit hole of experimentation and chasing perfection. That can be a pursuit all of it’s own that doesn’t always lead to greater productivity.

The hardest part is justifying the expense.  It’s a very expensive bit of kit to have sitting idle most of the time. If you’re sticking to just a few papers it makes more economic sense to get custom profiles built by one of the remote online companies.

[Ryan Mack]

The hardest part is justifying the expense.  It’s a very expensive bit of kit to have sitting idle most of the time. If you’re sticking to just a few papers it makes more economic sense to get custom profiles built by one of the remote online companies.

Yeah if you only have a few papers ordering is a good idea. If you want to spend a bunch of time and learn how this all works you can also buy a used spectro on eBay without the software and use the free Agryll CMS software. Some RIPs come with them and people just sell them immediately without the software.

[Rhossydd]

buy a used spectro on eBay without the software and use the free Agryll CMS software.

A cheap way in and I know Argyll is capable of great results, but in terms of usability iProfiler is streets ahead, especially for someone just starting with printer profiling.

[Ryan Mack]

A cheap way in and I know Argyll is capable of great results, but in terms of usability iProfiler is streets ahead, especially for someone just starting with printer profiling.

Totally agree. I'd only recommend this if you want to tinker and learn how it all works internally.

[dkaufman]

Apropos my contention that Epson's ABW mode does not use less coloured ink than printing B&W images using a standard RGB workflow, and in regard to the pushback from some about this, see the following.

This is the ink usage reported by Epson's accounting tool printing the identical B&W print once through a 16 bit RGB workflow and once through the ABW workflow:
Epson RGB: CY: .07  OR: .03  Y: .03  LCY: .09  PB: .20  VM: .06  LB: .54  G: .06  LLB: .38   VLM: .14
Epson ABW: CY: .02  OR: .02  Y: .03  LCY: .18  PB: .32  VM: .02  LB: .25  G: .02  LLB: .21   VLM: .24
ABW was used so that the prints looked the same at output as to tonality and density.

Readers can analyze the results for themselves, but in both cases all colours are used. ABW uses somewhat less of the stronger colour inks but much more of the weaker coloured inks, and there are also differences in the usage of the three levels of black. Overall, I would say ABW uses somewhat more coloured ink, although the lighter inks, contrary to claims about ABW. 
RGB used 0.48 ml of coloured inks and 1.12 black ink;  ABW used 0.55 ml of coloured inks and only 0.78 black ink.  Interesting result.  Food for thought.

David Kaufman   www.davidkaufmanphotography.com