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Author Topic: Colorbyte ImagePrint Black in 2022  (Read 2091 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Colorbyte ImagePrint Black in 2022
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2022, 11:34:04 am »

Readers can analyze the results for themselves, but in both cases all colours are used.
Thanks, I'll stick with the comments from the actual product manager for all pro Epson printers, Henery Wilhelm's analysis and the fellow here with the mciroscpe.
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The Epson Advanced Black and White printer driver mode is a different printing method from our standard AccuPhoto HD or HDR mode.
ABW is a 12-bit mathematical algorithm designed to convert color or grayscale data into a black and white print.  We only use six colors to produce this screening and color management print mode.
Mark Radogna
Group Product Manager, Professional Imaging
I have checked it several times using microscope showing exact dots put on paper once I was also examining how QTR works and how it compares to ABW and ICC. I do not have those images with me now but it was clearly visible that inking strategy is very different for ABW and ICC based B&W printing.
BTW, your testing and thus analysis is falwed and I'd go there but seems pointless.
If you want to go deep into a printing myth rabbit hole, here's a good one:
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=136760.msg1194660#msg1194660
All original prints are 300DPI according to this fellow.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 02:35:15 pm by digitaldog »
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dkaufman

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Re: Colorbyte ImagePrint Black in 2022
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2022, 03:31:03 pm »

Andrew,

I have no ideological commitment to one method or another, and no skin in the game. (If anything, the little pictures you reproduced, from a tiny section of who knows what photos, from an old printer, don't prove anything.) I'm using a two year old SC P-9000, and when using ABW, the Epson LPF Accounting tool shows the ink usage I reported above, which indicates all colours are used when printing from ABW. Why is this method flawed? Is the Epson software wrong and misreporting ink usage? If you can explain or demonstrate why this is wrong, I would like to know. In any case, it's very easy to test this: Anyone with a current Epson printer can print using ABW and the Epson LPF accounting tool software and see what ink usage is reported.

David Kaufman     www.davidkaufmanphotography.com
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Ryan Mack

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Re: Colorbyte ImagePrint Black in 2022
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2022, 03:52:03 pm »

Those microscope images look like very different densities to me. I definitely see a much stronger contrast when printing AB&W so I am not surprised a 5% black would get lighter and thus use less ink overall and use lighter colors to augment the grays.
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digitaldog

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Re: Colorbyte ImagePrint Black in 2022
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2022, 04:01:19 pm »

I have no ideological commitment to one method or another, and no skin in the game.
Neither do I. I only have ideological commitment to facts, data and science.
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(If anything, the little pictures you reproduced, from a tiny section of who knows what photos, from an old printer, don't prove anything)
They confirm the reports of other such microscopic analysis and more importantly, what the actual Epson Pro product manager has said about how his driver actually operates using less than all inks.
"Facts are facts and will not disappear on account of your likes." -Jawaharlal Nehru
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Anyone with a current Epson printer can print using ABW and the Epson LPF accounting tool software and see what ink usage is reported.
There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Søren Kierkegaard
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Lessbones

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Re: Colorbyte ImagePrint Black in 2022
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2022, 08:45:29 pm »

Apropos my contention that Epson's ABW mode does not use less coloured ink than printing B&W images using a standard RGB workflow, and in regard to the pushback from some about this, see the following.

This is the ink usage reported by Epson's accounting tool printing the identical B&W print once through a 16 bit RGB workflow and once through the ABW workflow:
Epson RGB: CY: .07  OR: .03  Y: .03  LCY: .09  PB: .20  VM: .06  LB: .54  G: .06  LLB: .38   VLM: .14
Epson ABW: CY: .02  OR: .02  Y: .03  LCY: .18  PB: .32  VM: .02  LB: .25  G: .02  LLB: .21   VLM: .24
ABW was used so that the prints looked the same at output as to tonality and density.

Readers can analyze the results for themselves, but in both cases all colours are used.

David Kaufman   www.davidkaufmanphotography.com

One thing you need to realize is that there is a certain amount of "spitting" being done on (i think) each pass as the head passes back over the capping station to keep the nozzles from drying when not every single one is being pumped at 100% on each portion of the image.  This would lead to some usage on the channels that are not actually in use in the printing of the image.

If you assume that ".02ml" is about the amount of ink wasted in spitting, you can clearly see that 6 colors remain in actual use:

K
LK
LLK
LC
LM
Y

with an extremely small amount of Y used in your specific use case.

So essentially yes, only 6 colors are used for printing, AND all colors are used during the print process

I would assume that on a p20000/10000 this number is probably 7, since there's an additional black.
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unesco

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Re: Colorbyte ImagePrint Black in 2022
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2022, 07:41:20 am »

Thanks, I'll stick with the comments from the actual product manager for all pro Epson printers, Henery Wilhelm's analysis and the fellow here with the mciroscpe. BTW, your testing and thus analysis is falwed and I'd go there but seems pointless.
If you want to go deep into a printing myth rabbit hole, here's a good one:
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=136760.msg1194660#msg1194660
All original prints are 300DPI according to this fellow.

Do you refer to my post or dkaufman's? I fully agree with your opinion.
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dkaufman

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Re: Colorbyte ImagePrint Black in 2022
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2022, 11:43:36 am »

Assuming Lesbonnes is correct, and that .02 ml or even .03 ml are process waste that does not appear on the print, we are left with the following usage from   my original report comparing an B&W print made using standard RGB  workflow as opposed to ABW workflow on an Epson SC P-9000:


Epson RGB: CY: .07  LCY: .09  PB: .20  VM: .06  LB: .54  G: .06  LLB: .38   VLM: .14
Epson ABW: LCY: .18  PB: .32  LB: .25  LLB: .21   VLM: .24

The total amount of coloured ink used by each process is exactly the same: 0.42 ml.   The RGB process uses C and LC, M and LM  and also uses a little bit of green. The ABW process uses only LC and LM.  But the RGB process uses much more black ink in total: 1.12 ml versus 0.78 for ABW.  Does this have implications for longevity of the print????

Wilhelm is not the most authoritative researcher of longevity as we have seen from comparative results published by Aardenburg, but neither have tested longevity of B&W prints produced in an RGB workflow on an Epson printer.  The comparative ink loads could indicate an RGB workflow produced B&W print may resist fading or colour shift for longer, a suggestion that should be tested.

David Kaufman                www.davidkaufmanphotography.com
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Doug Gray

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Re: Colorbyte ImagePrint Black in 2022
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2022, 12:41:38 pm »

I've done work to create ABW ICC profiles. A side effect was analyzing the accuracy/smoothness of ABW v printing B&W with a regular, color managed process.

ABW produces more accurate and smoother B&W prints consistent with a different, advanced B&W printing algorithm. See this post for a chart of measured L* accuracy.

https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=132251.msg1131746#msg1131746

"Ave error of L* measurements was .18, max: .38" which is about half of what's possible with regular, color RGB printing of B&W.
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digitaldog

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Re: Colorbyte ImagePrint Black in 2022
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2022, 02:14:13 pm »

Wilhelm is not the most authoritative researcher of longevity as we have seen from comparative results published by Aardenburg, but neither have tested longevity of B&W prints produced in an RGB workflow on an Epson printer.  The comparative ink loads could indicate an RGB workflow produced B&W print may resist fading or colour shift for longer, a suggestion that should be tested.
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“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Søren Kierkegaard
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