Afghanistan

[Manoli]

Too important not to have its own thread.

Sitting on a humanitarian crisis, with horrifying potential to grow into a ‘crisis’ to rank alongside Rwanda and Cambodia. It’s not simply an American affair; The UK, EU, NATO are all embroiled and the European bi-partisan kick-ass reaction is strengthening.

Afghans caught in the chaos engulfing Kabul airport have described how victims have been shot and brutally beaten by Taliban militants and trampled to death in the melee, as US military jets make diving combat landings amid fears of a terror attack by so-called Islamic State.

More than 15 people including children shot dead, night-time crowd surges outside the airport gates and people killed in the stampede.

The British Ministry of Defence said in a statement that seven Afghan civilians have been killed trying to flee the Taliban. A spokesman added: 'Conditions on the ground remain extremely challenging but we are doing everything we can to manage the situation as safely and securely as possible.'

US military planes have been making rapid, diving combat landings at Kabul airport, while aircraft have fired flares on take-off, in a bid to confuse possible heat-seeking missiles amid a new, perceived threat from the Islamic State group affiliate in Afghanistan.

[Manoli]

Former Prime Minister of the UK*;
Tony Blair: Why We Must Not Abandon the People of Afghanistan – For Their Sakes and Ours

https://institute.global/tony-blair/tony-blair-why-we-must-not-abandon-people-afghanistan-their-sakes-and-ours


(Edit
* former Prime Minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, to be precise)

[budjames]

Biden is a senile placeholder for a President. Embarrassing and weak. He's not calling the shots. Unfortunately, the entire executive branch is filled with woke, corrupt and incompetent Obama-era clowns. Disgusting.
Regards,
Bud

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

What else to expect from the Imbecile-In-Chief and his "80" million kin?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

How about them apples!

[digitaldog]

Plenty of blame to go around for those fair to facts (I don't expect that for some posting here):
From those ultra liberals at the BBC
https://www.bbc.com/news/58271943
What was the deal with the Taliban?
The deal - secured by Donald Trump and signed in Doha, Qatar, in February 2020 - committed to the withdrawal of US and allied (including British) troops from Afghanistan by May 2021.
After his election, US President Joe Biden continued the plan for withdrawal but with an end date of 31 August.

As recently as April 18, Trump said: “Getting out of Afghanistan is a wonderful and positive thing to do. I planned to withdraw on May 1st, and we should keep as close to that schedule as possible.” On June 26, he bragged: “I started the process. All the troops are coming back home. They couldn’t stop the process. Twenty-one years is enough, don’t we think?”
Now Trump is calling all this “not acceptable” and saying that the troop withdrawal should have been “conditions based” yet that wasn’t part of the deal he struck with the Taliban.

There is more, but what's the point? It is impossible to puncture the unreality bubble surrounding a fact denier. We can only attempt to sway those with open minds.

[Manoli]

On June 26, he bragged: “I started the process. All the troops are coming back home. They couldn’t stop the process.

Watch the ‘live’ recording:
https://youtu.be/PAr3NpYVkpI

Note the reference to ‘woke’ generals. Woke ? West Point take note.

The bottom line is that both Trump and Biden ignored military advice and intelligence, primarily for political reasons. More will come out in the weeks ahead, but there’s already sufficient witness and disingenuity on show to put that beyond doubt. Recriminations can and will surely come later.  Question today is how to minimise the damage and where do we go from here.

Favourite take-away from the Blair interview:
“ A policy can’t be decided by a slogan, it’s got to decided on the basis of a strategy and that’s a different thing … “

[TechTalk]

Too important not to have its own thread.

It isn't my forum or rules, but you might consider moving this to the "Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa" thread. The atmosphere there will be more appropriate for the level of commentary this is bound to attract. Just a suggestion.

Biden is a senile placeholder for a President. Embarrassing and weak. He's not calling the shots. Unfortunately, the entire executive branch is filled with woke, corrupt and incompetent Obama-era clowns. Disgusting.

What else to expect from the Imbecile-In-Chief and his "80" million kin?

[Manoli]

It isn't my forum or rules, but you might consider moving this to the "Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa" thread. The atmosphere there will be more appropriate for the level of commentary this is bound to attract. Just a suggestion.

I considered that, but this topic is really one of a foreign policy failure w/ international repercussions. The arbitrary ‘politics’ dictum was set by a now defunct (as far as this site is concerned) moderator. Josh said that he wished the site could be self-moderating and I’m hopeful that this topic will rise above above the ‘Trump v Biden’ level of abuse.

If it can’t maintain a level of reasoned debate, there’s always the mute (and nuke) button options. The bear pit remains open to those who can’t resist otherwise.

Boys, let’s raise the standard here, memes to a minimum, reasoned discourse ‘de rigeur’.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... this topic is really one of a foreign policy failure w/ international repercussions...

Since you want international, how about this, coming from a "special relationship" ally (not a meme, a direct quote from an interview):

[digitaldog]

Josh said that he wished the site could be self-moderating and I’m hopeful that this topic will rise above above the ‘Trump v Biden’ level of abuse.

Based on the recent post, how's that working out for you? 

[Robert Roaldi]

An historical perspective (fall of Saigon) by someone who was there, https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/08/21/saigon-vietnam-kabul-afghanistan-505943.

There is a phrase in the article (paraphrasing) 'not really knowing why we were there or what we were trying to accomplish' that might be apt.

One thing that's odd to me is how leaving Afghanistan was a good idea when Trump advocated it but that it's a bad idea when Biden does. It will be easy to point to current tactical errors but people will ignore (as usual) the 20 years of errors that led to it. The attempts to make this a partisan issue about internal US politics is sad but expected, as if what's important about foreign wars is whether they benefit the Republicans or Democrats. That part of it is farce, really.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... One thing that's odd to me is how leaving Afghanistan was a good idea when Trump advocated it but that it's a bad idea when Biden does...

You are usually not this dense.

Everybody and his mother-in-law agrees by now that leaving IS a good idea. Trump agrees, Biden agrees. The issue is HOW, that is, the execution of that idea. There are numerous descriptors, collected from all over the world, of that "how" by now: imbecilic, incompetent, amateurish, criminal, pathetic, disappointing, unbelievable, etc., etc.

[digitaldog]

....I’m hopeful that this topic will rise above above the ‘Trump v Biden’ level of abuse.
Boys, let’s raise the standard here, memes to a minimum, reasoned discourse ‘de rigeur’.

Followed by:

You are usually not this dense.

So again, how well do you think this discourse is going? As the OP, you can do something about it.
So can I, by turning off notifications and bail out (before Frans arrives).
Adiós

[LesPalenik]

You are usually not this dense.

Everybody and his mother-in-law agrees by now that leaving IS a good idea. Trump agrees, Biden agrees. The issue is HOW, that is, the execution of that idea. There are numerous descriptors, collected from all over the world, of that "how" by now: imbecilic, incompetent, amateurish, criminal, pathetic, disappointing, unbelievable, etc., etc.

The execution was unbelievably incompetent.

[Manoli]

So again, how well do you think this discourse is going?

Not even off first base and not much ‘reasoned’ debate.

As the OP, you can do something about it.

And I will, but fttb ignoring all vituperative posts.
See my next post.

[Manoli]

Linking here to a blog post by Sarah Chayes.
Informative treatise , especially her appraisal of the ISI’s incubation of the Taliban.
Ms Chayes CV is detailed in the Wikipedia link below.

In 2010, Chayes became a special adviser to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Mike Mullen. In this capacity, she contributed to strategic US policy on Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the Arab Spring.[1]

https://www.sarahchayes.org/post/the-ides-of-august
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Chayes

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... not much ‘reasoned’ debate...

By "reasoned debate" you probably mean "how to find ways to rationalize and intellectualize why what our eyes are seeing is not so bad after all"?

[Robert Roaldi]

By "reasoned debate" you probably mean "how to find ways to rationalize and intellectualize why what our eyes are seeing is not so bad after all"?

I don't understand, did anyone suggest it wasn't bad? Am I being dense again?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

I don't understand, did anyone suggest it wasn't bad?

Ok, sorry... fixed it now:

By "reasoned debate" you probably mean "how to find ways to rationalize and intellectualize why what our eyes are seeing is not so bad it isn't Biden's fault after all"?