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Author Topic: Afghanistan  (Read 6166 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2021, 06:20:06 pm »

I don't understand, did anyone suggest it wasn't bad?...

Well, actually, that is exactly the official White House position. From Biden enthusiastically saying: "Hey, look, man... no one has been killed," followed by a knock on wood for good measure, to Psaki:

TechTalk

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2021, 06:26:20 pm »

By "reasoned debate" you probably mean...

Something other than the kind of shallow insults, name calling, internet memes, or a one sentence treatise.

But that's what you're likely to get from those eager to express reactions excited by a tight embrace of a rigid, narrow, simplistic, fundamentalist ideology which removes complexity and uncertainty from their lives for the sake of emotional security.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2021, 07:01:44 pm »

You know it is bad when a 10-year old satire can be mistaken for today's news:

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2021, 07:05:20 pm »

... a one sentence treatise...

Actually, a sentence is too long. One word suffices: shitshow.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2021, 07:16:10 pm »

For those shitshow apologists' argument "Well... it is a problem 20 years in the making, not Biden's fault"... proceeding to mention only Bush and Trump... conveniently "forgetting" that in eight of those 20 years Biden was the vice president. And even before that, he argued this:

TechTalk

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2021, 07:36:51 pm »

Not even off first base and not much ‘reasoned’ debate.

Are we done yet? Just curious what your tolerance level is for juvenile knee-jerk posts lacking any substantive depth before allowing the "discussion" to migrate to the swamp where it belongs.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2021, 09:27:30 pm »

For those shitshow apologists' argument "Well... it is a problem 20 years in the making, not Biden's fault"... proceeding to mention only Bush and Trump... conveniently "forgetting" that in eight of those 20 years Biden was the vice president. And even before that, he argued this:

"not Biden's fault" ?

I don't think anyone has actually said that or that they think Biden and his minions have done a good job, at least not in the stuff I've read. All I've suggested is that he's latest to join the queue of questionable US foreign actions. At one point though, in the other thread, I did make comment when someone suggested that this was all Biden's fault, which appeared simple-minded to me. If you took that to mean that I thought that Biden has done a good job, well you inferred too much.

I thought this was about Afghanistan and not about current US partisan politics. Bringing interesting articles to people's attention is still useful though, I'll keep an eye out for those posts.
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John Camp

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2021, 11:55:35 pm »

As I've said several times in threads going back years, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, but Biden's response to this situation has pushed me beyond anger. His response so far can be characterized as the infamous two-dude criminal defense: "Some other dude done it." The fact is, that fatuous ass Pompeo and his moronic boss set up this disaster, but then Biden didn't walk away when he could have. He didn't have to point fingers at everyone but himself. He could have taken charge. He is absolutely not a "the buck stops here" guy. He absolutely could have made all kinds of (good) excuses for pulling out of the disastrous Trump/Pompeo deal -- including simply saying Pompeo's deal was criminally bad. Robert Gates, maybe the best U.S. Defense Secretary in half a century, appointed by Bush II and kept on by Obama (there's a recommendation for you) said that Joe Biden has "been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades." And here's another one to add to the list.

I get sick when I think of the massacres to come. And people crying about American lives lost in a pointless war should think about the fact that no American troops were killed in combat since February of 2020 -- combat was virtually over, but the American presence kept the Taliban at bay. And keeping the Taliban at bay served (IMHO) a serious purpose -- I think the modern world is catching up with Afghanistan (and Pakistan and Iran, and Syria) and that sooner or later, the Taliban would simply have become irrelevant. They might have continued as a terrorist group, but not as a government. Now, we're going to get another Iran.

Further, I'm afraid as the disaster grows, Biden will have made more likely the possibility of a Republican comeback in 2024, with all the racist, anti-democratic, anti-science Trumpkin bs that they've tied themselves to in the last six years.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2021, 12:33:18 am »

As I've said several times in threads going back years, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, but Biden's response to this situation has pushed me beyond anger. His response so far can be characterized as the infamous two-dude criminal defense: "Some other dude done it." The fact is, that fatuous ass Pompeo and his moronic boss set up this disaster, but then Biden didn't walk away when he could have. He didn't have to point fingers at everyone but himself. He could have taken charge. He is absolutely not a "the buck stops here" guy. He absolutely could have made all kinds of (good) excuses for pulling out of the disastrous Trump/Pompeo deal -- including simply saying Pompeo's deal was criminally bad. Robert Gates, maybe the best U.S. Defense Secretary in half a century, appointed by Bush II and kept on by Obama (there's a recommendation for you) said that Joe Biden has "been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades." And here's another one to add to the list.

I get sick when I think of the massacres to come. And people crying about American lives lost in a pointless war should think about the fact that no American troops were killed in combat since February of 2020 -- combat was virtually over, but the American presence kept the Taliban at bay. And keeping the Taliban at bay served (IMHO) a serious purpose -- I think the modern world is catching up with Afghanistan (and Pakistan and Iran, and Syria) and that sooner or later, the Taliban would simply have become irrelevant. They might have continued as a terrorist group, but not as a government. Now, we're going to get another Iran.

Further, I'm afraid as the disaster grows, Biden will have made more likely the possibility of a Republican comeback in 2024, with all the racist, anti-democratic, anti-science Trumpkin bs that they've tied themselves to in the last six years.

That is indeed very likely now, the Dems will lose a lot of support between now and 2024. Actually, losing just a few counties will tip the elections results from what it could have been.
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Manoli

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2021, 04:51:22 am »

I consider Trump contemptible in the extreme and hold him far more to blame than Biden for the Taliban victory because he struck the Doha peace deal with them. The departure is exacerbating the tragedy, but the fact that he’s enacting Trump’s plan doesn’t exonerate Biden, it excoriates him. The more depraved you know Trump to be, the worse Biden’s behaviour becomes.

Afghan’s mineral rights handed to China and the country reverting to being a training ground for anti-western terrorists. All thrown away by Trump and Biden under a false slogan of ending ‘a forever war’.  I won’t even go into what this will mean for the circa 5 million Afghanis remaining in Kabul and the other 35 million in the wider country.

The US has hardly lost a soldier since 2014 and none for over a year. all the expensive hard work of building bases was done in the first decade. Sometimes you have to undertake an indefinite occupation for security. Ask Britain, it can take 50 years to turn a failed state around (Egypt), 200 years to unite its tribes. And don't expect any thanks.

In this case, there was minimal expense in maintaining a 2,500 strong presence plus coalition manpower particularly if you consider the wider cost. The US has almost 30,000 troops stationed in South Korea another 50,000 in Japan. Is anyone seriously suggesting that these troops be recalled on the basis of ending another ‘forever war’ ?

Trump and Biden both exploited this slogan; one to bolster his election prospects and the other out of fear of a domestic political backlash (at least that is the least damning interpretation one can put on it).

Both are equally contemptible, both with blood on their hands.  As one prominent Conservative and ex-military put it during the UK parliamentary debate : “I have lowered my fellow soldiers into the ground … what was it all for?”
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2021, 06:38:59 am »

Oh, Jesus, Manoli, you have outdone yourself here!!! TDS still having a firm hold of your soul? ;D ;D ;D

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2021, 11:34:48 am »

This is an interview/discussion from Deep Background podcast (Pushkin Industries) about the lost war in Afghanistan, https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/we-lost-the-war-in-afghanistan-now-what/.

The discussion takes place from tactical and strategic points of view with someone who has done military tours of duty in Afghanistan. The discussion does not take place through the lens of US partisan politics culture war bullshit, so you shouldn't listen to it if that's what you're looking for. It offers some ideas not previously discussed here, hope you find it informative.

Here is the short intro blurb from the linked page: Emile Simpson, a military expert and veteran of the war in Afghanistan, discusses the end of the war in Afghanistan and the Taliban’s recent takeover. Simpson outlines the strategic failures that contributed to the current situation and comments on the United States’s responsibility to evacuate allied Afghans.

Simpson is a former British Army officer who completed three tours in southern Afghanistan. He’s the author of the book, War From the Ground Up: Twenty-First Century Combat as Politics.
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TechTalk

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2021, 07:31:56 pm »

Oh, Jesus, Manoli, you have outdone yourself here!!! TDS still having a firm hold of your soul? ;D ;D ;D

It's sad when a distinguished gentleman of intelligence is reduced to repeatedly barking insults instead of rational and well reasoned dialogue.  :'( :'( :'(

It's unfortunately what I've observed in many otherwise decent and intelligent people when their reason is corrupted by allowing a rigid ideology to take a firm hold of their soul.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2021, 08:42:02 pm »

It's sad when a distinguished gentleman of intelligence is reduced to repeatedly barking insults instead of rational and well reasoned dialogue.  :'( :'( :'(

It's unfortunately what I've observed in many otherwise decent and intelligent people when their reason is corrupted by allowing a rigid ideology to take a firm hold of their soul.

For someone who keeps on complaining, you sure dont seem interested in sharing your "rational and well reasoned dialogue."  Anytime now, please share your thoughts on the crisis. 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2021, 09:12:16 pm »

What really gets me about this whole thing is that it is obvious, to anyone watching, Biden's legacy is now destroyed.  There is no coming back from this; he is done and, more then likely, already a lame duck president.  All that can be done at this point is mitigate the disaster so it is not as bad as it can be. 

Biden, though, is acting as if this will all just blow over.  As if he can abandon 1000s of Americans, but by just waiting out the media cycle and sprinkling in some Covid news here and there, everything will be fine. 

It is bewildering how he can be so obtuse.  Although I was not alive for it, I have to imagine Carter knew the Iran hostage situation was lights out for him and he did not live in delusion about it (at least that is my impression).   

Meanwhile, the entirety of the administration has this deer in the headlights look where you can tell they know their careers are over after this.  Maybe they will survive this administration, but they know they are now radioactive. 

On the bright side, as many have pointed out, 2022 should be a banner year along with 2024.  With that said, we're talking about politicians here, those whom can screw literally anything up, so ... 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2021, 09:54:25 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2021, 09:21:08 pm »

For someone who keeps on complaining, you sure dont seem interested in sharing your "rational and well reasoned dialogue."  Anytime now, please share your thoughts on the crisis.

I don't mean to stick my nose into other people's sub-threads, but in the past I'd say that Tech Talk's contributions have been among the most erudite and polite on these pages.
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TechTalk

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2021, 09:45:02 pm »

For someone who keeps on complaining, you sure dont seem interested in sharing your "rational and well reasoned dialogue."  Anytime now, please share your thoughts on the crisis. 

Given that it is an ongoing situation which hasn't fully played out, I'm not eager to jump to conclusions or give knee-jerk reactions. I generally prefer to wait until the dust has begun to settle and rumors, conjecture, and social media "facts" can be separated from what is actually knowable before forming some initial thoughts on a matter.

I realize that isn't an enjoyable or entertaining approach for those that are eager put their wit and talent for insults on display for the purpose of scoring ideological points. Then again, I think all ideologies corrupt reason. Some do a great deal more harm to it than others and it usually depends on how tightly and rigidly people cling hold of whatever ideology brings them mental and emotional comfort in a reality that is always quite complex and unpredictable.

While current events continue to evolve, my general thoughts are of history. Wars are filled with chaos, confusion, and tragedy—and this is especially true of civil wars. Any nation caught in the middle of the civil war of another nation will likely have to deal with a great deal of chaos, confusion, and tragedy—and that applies equally to withdrawing from it. Perhaps more so.

The Fall of Saigon is not that distant of a memory. The images of helicopters lifting lines of people from a rooftop are still easy to conjure in many peoples minds—along with refugees escaping by boat and being rescued from the water.

It wasn't pretty then and neither is it now... but anytime you're making a strategic withdrawal (a retreat) from the middle of a civil war, no matter how civil and organized you may hope it will be—it isn't like you're just checking out of a hotel. In the meantime, I'm in no hurry to make judgements. I can wait until the last inning has been played.

No plan survives first contact with the enemy.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2021, 09:52:56 pm »

I don't mean to stick my nose into other people's sub-threads, but in the past I'd say that Tech Talk's contributions have been among the most erudite and polite on these pages.

Polite, yes, thorough here, at least, after criticizing others for not being so, no, up until now when I prodded him. 

Although I do have to say, TechTalk make plenty of sense with his response preceding this one. 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2021, 09:56:52 pm by JoeKitchen »
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TechTalk

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2021, 09:56:10 pm »

up until now when I prodded him.

All of the credit goes to you.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2021, 10:00:17 pm »

All of the credit goes to you.

All great minds need a divine push every now and then, especially those mired down the minutiae of being in the world's most hated profession. 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2021, 10:07:08 pm by JoeKitchen »
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