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Author Topic: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?  (Read 3045 times)

Roscolo

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UPDATE 06/30/2021:
 You can read this entire thread for more info., but I'm adding this update just a few weeks after making my original post below. After testing several Camera Profile making tools, for my work basICColor Input 6 Pro came out on top as the very best. I've been printing for artists, photographers, galleries and museums for over 20 years now. If your work requires ACCURATE color, not "improved" color, I give basICColor Input 6 Pro and basICColor Display 6 my highest recommendation. Two of the best tools I've added to my toolbox.

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Looking for input from folks who have used one or both Lumariver Repro and / or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro. I do very color critical reproduction of fine art. Just looking for a tool to help me out. I use primarily use Adobe Camera Raw, Photoshop and Capture One.

Significant price difference between these 2 softwares, Lumariver Repro coming in near $300. Basiccolor Input 6 Pro is $800. I read Capture One users may have issues with Basiccolor profiles, but that could be a previous version. After reading and watching some reviews, leaning towards Lumariver. Willing to pay, but not sure Basiccolor Input 6 Pro offers any big advantage over Lumariver, but am willing to be convinced otherwise. I have used Basiccolor's display calibration product and it is outstanding.

Preferences?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2021, 04:18:07 pm by Roscolo »
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digitaldog

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2021, 12:32:55 pm »

I can't comment at all on Basiccolor Input 6 Pro but I can say, I purchased and have no objections or issues with Lumariver. Depending on your needs, you can save $500 and produce very good profiles.
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John Nollendorfs

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2021, 04:09:40 pm »

Roscolo
I hear where you are coming from, looking for the golden grail, but I doubt you will find the answer in software. I've been reproducing art for over 20 years  and the system that seems to get me close on most pieces of art, is to shoot a DataColor SpyderCheckr Reference at each copy session. I  then use that to do a basic exposure and color balance for all my RAW copy files. I do a steep curve  at the top end starting in the 50% linear point to mimic a paper base. Then sometimes I put in localized micro contrast corrections depending on the subject matter. So many variable tools we can use  to nail it. But  they all take time to do just right.

The tricky thing seems to be the various pigments artists use, expecially with blues. I find for one of my clients who paints landscapes, I need to desaturate the blue channel, and shift the blue bias in Hue Saturation more toward red by 20 points otherwise she complains the sky is too cerulean. It's just the way your individual camera responds to different colors.

It's called experience! Wouldn't it be nice if every copy shot would just come out right on? But it's a lot easier today than it was in the old color darkroom days?
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Roscolo

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2021, 05:44:38 pm »

@ digitaldog  Thanks. Your recommendations carries a lot of weight with me. I'm trying out Lumariver now.

@ John Nollendorfs  Holy Grail indeed! I've got hundreds of presets saved from works I've set up. So I can spend half a day just scrolling and applying presets to "save time", lol. No matter what it always comes down to tweaking the color in each piece, but it does get better every year: hardware and software. Always something new to learn. Worked years in a darkroom, and while I do still shoot some large format B&W which is immediately scanned after processing, no way do I want to go back to the darkroom! Seems like every 3 -4 years I go on the search for that Holy Grail. And looks like there are some great tools out there now. For example, I probably won't go back to Spectraview after calibrating a monitor with Basiccolor Display Pro.
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MichaelKoerner

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2021, 07:28:55 pm »

Just my two cents: In my understanding, the math used for repro profiles in Lumariver and Input 6 should be rather the same. Those tools differ when it comes to "general use" profiles: Input 6 wants to be a "one-button-solution". Programmed with decades of experience, there should be no need for individual optimization.

Torger's Lumariver has more buttons to press, thus more possibilities for user errors  ;)  It's input profiles can be tweaked in numerous ways, but most people would/could do the same in their RAW converter, I suppose.

For me, this reminds me to the difference between Argyll CMS and i1Profiler ;)

In my experience, the following points outweigh the differences between profiling tools:
  • proper lighting setup
  • using multi targets including ones made with the artist's pigments, if possible
  • using process version 1 in Lightroom/Linear scientific curve in C1
  • when printing, using a paper as close as possible to the original
  • using a well tested "softproof setup" for manual tuning, as John described. There are always colors/areas in the artwork where either input profile/camera or lighting or ink/printer/paper combination show weaknesses. Some can easily be corrected manually, some - not ;)

That said, I find Lumariver's repro profiles to be very helpful. Unfortunately, I had no possibility to compare them to BasICColor Input 6 profiles, yet.

PS: I find BasICColor display 6 Pro (in its latest versions) to be a great jack for all trades, too - especially, if one has to calibrate/profile multiple, different monitors. For instance, white point adaptation is a blessing. Or sensor correlation...

Roscolo

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2021, 06:34:40 pm »

To update, my decision has been greatly influenced by the ineffective means Basiccolor has in place for one to purchase and license the their software. To say it is convoluted is an under statement. I tried Basiccolor Display 6, and found it excellent in the trial version. Unfortunately, after purchasing the license (from a third party, which is in itself bizarre that the company doesnít sell their own software), the software will not activate. Apparently the solution was to change my email in the license window to the email used when purchasing, but after doing so it also does not allow me to even type in the TAN, or any other characters, and the software crashes now.
If they wonder why the software, while very good, at least the Display 6 I tried, is not very popular, perhaps it is because they make it very difficult to purchase and activate a license.

At this point Iím glad Iím only out the $85 for the non-functional Basiccolor Display 6, and not the $800 for Basiccolor Input 6 Pro, and no way can I recommend anyone purchase this software, or any software from this vendor until they improve their purchase / licensing procedure.

Hoping I get Display 6 activated at some point. Otherwise Iím back to NEC Spectraview.

After doing extensive research, Basiccolor Input 6 Pro looked like the better option vs. Lumariver for my workflow of creating highly accurate reproductions of paintings and artwork. The price is not unreasonable. But the licensing experience with Basiccolor has put me off considerably.
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Ray Harrison

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2021, 08:35:08 pm »

Yes, I like Basiccolor really well. But... their licensing is straight out of the 1990s or some such. Mine took over a week to get properly sorted because the vendor I went with said that their contact at the company was on holiday. Surely thereís a better way  :).
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digitaldog

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2021, 08:42:23 pm »

Yes, I like Basiccolor really well. But... their licensing is straight out of the 1990s or some such.
What, no Dongle?  ;)
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Roscolo

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2021, 01:12:22 am »

Yes, I like Basiccolor really well. But... their licensing is straight out of the 1990s or some such. Mine took over a week to get properly sorted because the vendor I went with said that their contact at the company was on holiday. Surely thereís a better way  :).

Well, part of me was hoping it was just me. And part of me is glad it's not just me. :) Yes, their software licensing feels like 1998. And absolutely there are better ways...as almost any other software we purchase has a better system! Shame, because the software itself is really good, but it's hard to sell something when you put obstacles and difficulties into the purchasing / licensing process.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2021, 03:47:59 am »

my decision has been greatly influenced by the ineffective means Basiccolor has in place for one to purchase and license the their software.
A second vote for that. The calibration software for my first NEC Spectraview was basicolor and keeping it running as I upgraded systems was such a nightmare I gave up and would never buy anything from them again.
Good software crippled by their sales systems.
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Roscolo

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2021, 04:17:11 am »

A second vote for that. The calibration software for my first NEC Spectraview was basicolor and keeping it running as I upgraded systems was such a nightmare I gave up and would never buy anything from them again.
Good software crippled by their sales systems.

Absolutely a legitimate concern. As someone else stated, there are better ways. I build my own workstations, and everything is top of the line, so I tend to use them for many years, so moving the license to new machines is not as much a concern for me, but it's still in the back of my mind. I also appreciate that many of these projects like basiccolor are usually worked on and held together by very few folks, sometimes an army of one, so I try to keep that in mind as well.

All that said, after sending a support email to basiccolor, I received a response at around 3:30am EDT, which I believe is pretty much first thing in the morning in Germany. It appears the licensing issue is sorted for basiccolor display. The licensing procedure leaves much to be desired, but basiccolor addressed the issue lightning fast, and you can't ask for more than that. And it really is a fantastic, useful piece of software. I think I would be comfortable dropping $800 for basiccolor input 6 pro. I'm going to give the 14 day trial a run through for it as well.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2021, 04:34:56 am »

moving the license to new machines is not as much a concern for me, but it's still in the back of my mind.
Another annoyance is not being able to use more than one computer with the monitor, no just plugging in the laptop.

Some of the issues I had were to do with the way NEC were licencing a Basicolor product and what happened when it failed to work when systems were upgraded. It was a few years ago now and I can't recall the exact details, but the issue wasn't handled well.

Yes, it may be a one man band software and need some appreciation of the problems they have, but others like Mike Chaney and Ed Hamrick, to name just two, seem to deliver their OMB software well.
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ned

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2021, 07:41:53 pm »

I have basICColor input 6 pro and I would not recommend it, at least the Windows version. 75% of the time it will crash when loading in the target scan. Worse yet, absolutely zero support. I've emailed their support for over a month, zero response. My dealer, Pat over at Chromix has also tried for me, crickets.

Your mileage may vary.
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MichaelKoerner

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2021, 08:39:58 pm »

Another annoyance is not being able to use more than one computer with the monitor, no just plugging in the laptop.

May I ask what problems you experience using D6 pro on more machines with the same monitor? I run a Mac and a Win10 machine, both plugged to the same NEC PA271Q via Display Port. D6 runs quite well on both machines. Just have to remember using different "picture modes" for each machine...

MichaelKoerner

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2021, 09:00:32 pm »

75% of the time it will crash when loading in the target scan.

Some time ago, I had issues with D6 crashing, too. I learned from customer support (yes, they talked to me  ;) ) that some of my "workflow" files (xml files describing a specific calibration/profiling setting) were corrupted. Those files stay the same even when reinstalling, as D6 copies those files from the former installation. So the problem went on and on even with fresh installations.

At that time, recreating my "workflows" helped... YMMV.

Rhossydd

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2021, 03:26:26 am »

May I ask what problems you experience using D6 pro on more machines with the same monitor?
It wasn't D6 Pro (whatever that is) it was the Basicolor version for the Spectraview monitors supplied at the time in the UK. This is going back quite a few years now, but it sounds like there's been little change in practice since then.
I've moved on to Eizo now, so I'm finished with the NEC/Basicolor software now.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2021, 07:50:27 am »

I can only contribute so much to this conversation as I have extremely limited experience with Lumariver and we are a dealer for BasICColor so must be considered biased on the matter. But here are contributions I can make...

1) We have done three webinars (free) on or adjacent to the topic:
Creating ICC Profiles
BasICColor Input Pro
BasICColor Software Demo

2) My experience with Franz the lead engineer for BasICColor has been extremely positive. He knows his stuff and has a great attitude/work-ethic for helping resolve issues.

3) Most of our Heritage clients (museums, libraries, archives) use BasICColor for their profiling needs.

4) Partly due to (3) our Digitization Guide for using Capture One to digitize (reproduce) art and other reflective material uses BasICColor in the steps involving creating in-situ color profiles.

5) I see a lot of complaints about their licensing. I can't speak to what things were like in the past or through other vendors/methods of purchase, but if you purchase BasICColor from us we will make sure you do not have any issues with managing/using your license.

Ray Harrison

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2021, 10:40:13 am »

I can only contribute so much to this conversation as I have extremely limited experience with Lumariver and we are a dealer for BasICColor so must be considered biased on the matter. But here are contributions I can make...

1) We have done three webinars (free) on or adjacent to the topic:
Creating ICC Profiles
BasICColor Input Pro
BasICColor Software Demo

2) My experience with Franz the lead engineer for BasICColor has been extremely positive. He knows his stuff and has a great attitude/work-ethic for helping resolve issues.

3) Most of our Heritage clients (museums, libraries, archives) use BasICColor for their profiling needs.

4) Partly due to (3) our Digitization Guide for using Capture One to digitize (reproduce) art and other reflective material uses BasICColor in the steps involving creating in-situ color profiles.

5) I see a lot of complaints about their licensing. I can't speak to what things were like in the past or through other vendors/methods of purchase, but if you purchase BasICColor from us we will make sure you do not have any issues with managing/using your license.

I purchased my license through DT and I like the software, it was just a purchasing experience I didn't expect. It seems to have two human intermediaries for something that to me should be pretty automatic. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of humans, but to actually get the license, I had to wait a week for the person at BasICColor to get back from vacation where it then got sent to me via a person at DT. Moving licenses seems to involve a human at BasICColor too. It seems like there could be a better approach but I also realize that DT is not in charge of that. It's like using dongles with ImagePrint. Seems like things could be improved sitting here in 2021  :).
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ned

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2021, 01:04:40 pm »

I did hear from Franz this morning (after a bit of nudging). We connected via remote access and I was able to show him the issues I'm having. I'm sure he will work it out.
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Roscolo

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Re: Camera Profiling - Lumariver Repro, or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro?
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2021, 11:55:27 am »

The folks at basiccolor were kind enough to give me some time to try Basiccolor Input 6 Pro. And I can confirm that it is an outstanding product and the best profiling software I've used. I did take the time to test it head-to-head versus some others. So I purchased a license. Input 6 Pro is currently $800, and in working, usable condition it's worth it.  I had hoped to update the thread here with some of my positive experiences using the software, but unfortunately the licensing issues persist, and I'm thus far unable to activate either the Input 6 Pro license, or an additional Display 6 license I purchased. The licensing server is inaccessible, and that's probably a good thing because on the basiccolor website there's a notification that they are working on it, so hopefully these issues get resolved. Unfortunately the manual licensing method is currently not working for me either. I'm really hoping they work these issues out not just for me, but for anyone else, as it's unfortunate to see a really outstanding product getting sunk by the persistent problems with getting a license activated so one can actually use it. I would think a third party solution to handle the software licensing / activation would be the way to go, and if that means the software becomes a little more expensive I know I would gladly pay a little extra, as it is very frustrating to pay for something, and then either not be able to use it, or go through days of back and forth emails to Europe to try to activate a license, not to mention the expense of all that time for folks on both ends.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 11:59:20 am by Roscolo »
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