Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: Roscolo on April 30, 2021, 11:39:39 am
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UPDATE 06/30/2021:
You can read this entire thread for more info., but I'm adding this update just a few weeks after making my original post below. After testing several Camera Profile making tools, for my work basICColor Input 6 Pro came out on top as the very best. I've been printing for artists, photographers, galleries and museums for over 20 years now. If your work requires ACCURATE color, not "improved" color, I give basICColor Input 6 Pro and basICColor Display 6 my highest recommendation. Two of the best tools I've added to my toolbox.
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Looking for input from folks who have used one or both Lumariver Repro and / or Basiccolor Input 6 Pro. I do very color critical reproduction of fine art. Just looking for a tool to help me out. I use primarily use Adobe Camera Raw, Photoshop and Capture One.
Significant price difference between these 2 softwares, Lumariver Repro coming in near $300. Basiccolor Input 6 Pro is $800. I read Capture One users may have issues with Basiccolor profiles, but that could be a previous version. After reading and watching some reviews, leaning towards Lumariver. Willing to pay, but not sure Basiccolor Input 6 Pro offers any big advantage over Lumariver, but am willing to be convinced otherwise. I have used Basiccolor's display calibration product and it is outstanding.
Preferences?
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I can't comment at all on Basiccolor Input 6 Pro but I can say, I purchased and have no objections or issues with Lumariver. Depending on your needs, you can save $500 and produce very good profiles.
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Roscolo
I hear where you are coming from, looking for the golden grail, but I doubt you will find the answer in software. I've been reproducing art for over 20 years and the system that seems to get me close on most pieces of art, is to shoot a DataColor SpyderCheckr Reference at each copy session. I then use that to do a basic exposure and color balance for all my RAW copy files. I do a steep curve at the top end starting in the 50% linear point to mimic a paper base. Then sometimes I put in localized micro contrast corrections depending on the subject matter. So many variable tools we can use to nail it. But they all take time to do just right.
The tricky thing seems to be the various pigments artists use, expecially with blues. I find for one of my clients who paints landscapes, I need to desaturate the blue channel, and shift the blue bias in Hue Saturation more toward red by 20 points otherwise she complains the sky is too cerulean. It's just the way your individual camera responds to different colors.
It's called experience! Wouldn't it be nice if every copy shot would just come out right on? But it's a lot easier today than it was in the old color darkroom days?
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@ digitaldog Thanks. Your recommendations carries a lot of weight with me. I'm trying out Lumariver now.
@ John Nollendorfs Holy Grail indeed! I've got hundreds of presets saved from works I've set up. So I can spend half a day just scrolling and applying presets to "save time", lol. No matter what it always comes down to tweaking the color in each piece, but it does get better every year: hardware and software. Always something new to learn. Worked years in a darkroom, and while I do still shoot some large format B&W which is immediately scanned after processing, no way do I want to go back to the darkroom! Seems like every 3 -4 years I go on the search for that Holy Grail. And looks like there are some great tools out there now. For example, I probably won't go back to Spectraview after calibrating a monitor with Basiccolor Display Pro.
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Just my two cents: In my understanding, the math used for repro profiles in Lumariver and Input 6 should be rather the same. Those tools differ when it comes to "general use" profiles: Input 6 wants to be a "one-button-solution". Programmed with decades of experience, there should be no need for individual optimization.
Torger's Lumariver has more buttons to press, thus more possibilities for user errors ;) It's input profiles can be tweaked in numerous ways, but most people would/could do the same in their RAW converter, I suppose.
For me, this reminds me to the difference between Argyll CMS and i1Profiler ;)
In my experience, the following points outweigh the differences between profiling tools:
- proper lighting setup
- using multi targets including ones made with the artist's pigments, if possible
- using process version 1 in Lightroom/Linear scientific curve in C1
- when printing, using a paper as close as possible to the original
- using a well tested "softproof setup" for manual tuning, as John described. There are always colors/areas in the artwork where either input profile/camera or lighting or ink/printer/paper combination show weaknesses. Some can easily be corrected manually, some - not ;)
That said, I find Lumariver's repro profiles to be very helpful. Unfortunately, I had no possibility to compare them to BasICColor Input 6 profiles, yet.
PS: I find BasICColor display 6 Pro (in its latest versions) to be a great jack for all trades, too - especially, if one has to calibrate/profile multiple, different monitors. For instance, white point adaptation is a blessing. Or sensor correlation...
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To update, my decision has been greatly influenced by the ineffective means Basiccolor has in place for one to purchase and license the their software. To say it is convoluted is an under statement. I tried Basiccolor Display 6, and found it excellent in the trial version. Unfortunately, after purchasing the license (from a third party, which is in itself bizarre that the company doesn’t sell their own software), the software will not activate. Apparently the solution was to change my email in the license window to the email used when purchasing, but after doing so it also does not allow me to even type in the TAN, or any other characters, and the software crashes now.
If they wonder why the software, while very good, at least the Display 6 I tried, is not very popular, perhaps it is because they make it very difficult to purchase and activate a license.
At this point I’m glad I’m only out the $85 for the non-functional Basiccolor Display 6, and not the $800 for Basiccolor Input 6 Pro, and no way can I recommend anyone purchase this software, or any software from this vendor until they improve their purchase / licensing procedure.
Hoping I get Display 6 activated at some point. Otherwise I’m back to NEC Spectraview.
After doing extensive research, Basiccolor Input 6 Pro looked like the better option vs. Lumariver for my workflow of creating highly accurate reproductions of paintings and artwork. The price is not unreasonable. But the licensing experience with Basiccolor has put me off considerably.
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Yes, I like Basiccolor really well. But... their licensing is straight out of the 1990s or some such. Mine took over a week to get properly sorted because the vendor I went with said that their contact at the company was on holiday. Surely there’s a better way :).
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Yes, I like Basiccolor really well. But... their licensing is straight out of the 1990s or some such.
What, no Dongle? ;)
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Yes, I like Basiccolor really well. But... their licensing is straight out of the 1990s or some such. Mine took over a week to get properly sorted because the vendor I went with said that their contact at the company was on holiday. Surely there’s a better way :).
Well, part of me was hoping it was just me. And part of me is glad it's not just me. :) Yes, their software licensing feels like 1998. And absolutely there are better ways...as almost any other software we purchase has a better system! Shame, because the software itself is really good, but it's hard to sell something when you put obstacles and difficulties into the purchasing / licensing process.
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my decision has been greatly influenced by the ineffective means Basiccolor has in place for one to purchase and license the their software.
A second vote for that. The calibration software for my first NEC Spectraview was basicolor and keeping it running as I upgraded systems was such a nightmare I gave up and would never buy anything from them again.
Good software crippled by their sales systems.
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A second vote for that. The calibration software for my first NEC Spectraview was basicolor and keeping it running as I upgraded systems was such a nightmare I gave up and would never buy anything from them again.
Good software crippled by their sales systems.
Absolutely a legitimate concern. As someone else stated, there are better ways. I build my own workstations, and everything is top of the line, so I tend to use them for many years, so moving the license to new machines is not as much a concern for me, but it's still in the back of my mind. I also appreciate that many of these projects like basiccolor are usually worked on and held together by very few folks, sometimes an army of one, so I try to keep that in mind as well.
All that said, after sending a support email to basiccolor, I received a response at around 3:30am EDT, which I believe is pretty much first thing in the morning in Germany. It appears the licensing issue is sorted for basiccolor display. The licensing procedure leaves much to be desired, but basiccolor addressed the issue lightning fast, and you can't ask for more than that. And it really is a fantastic, useful piece of software. I think I would be comfortable dropping $800 for basiccolor input 6 pro. I'm going to give the 14 day trial a run through for it as well.
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moving the license to new machines is not as much a concern for me, but it's still in the back of my mind.
Another annoyance is not being able to use more than one computer with the monitor, no just plugging in the laptop.
Some of the issues I had were to do with the way NEC were licencing a Basicolor product and what happened when it failed to work when systems were upgraded. It was a few years ago now and I can't recall the exact details, but the issue wasn't handled well.
Yes, it may be a one man band software and need some appreciation of the problems they have, but others like Mike Chaney and Ed Hamrick, to name just two, seem to deliver their OMB software well.
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I have basICColor input 6 pro and I would not recommend it, at least the Windows version. 75% of the time it will crash when loading in the target scan. Worse yet, absolutely zero support. I've emailed their support for over a month, zero response. My dealer, Pat over at Chromix has also tried for me, crickets.
Your mileage may vary.
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Another annoyance is not being able to use more than one computer with the monitor, no just plugging in the laptop.
May I ask what problems you experience using D6 pro on more machines with the same monitor? I run a Mac and a Win10 machine, both plugged to the same NEC PA271Q via Display Port. D6 runs quite well on both machines. Just have to remember using different "picture modes" for each machine...
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75% of the time it will crash when loading in the target scan.
Some time ago, I had issues with D6 crashing, too. I learned from customer support (yes, they talked to me ;) ) that some of my "workflow" files (xml files describing a specific calibration/profiling setting) were corrupted. Those files stay the same even when reinstalling, as D6 copies those files from the former installation. So the problem went on and on even with fresh installations.
At that time, recreating my "workflows" helped... YMMV.
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May I ask what problems you experience using D6 pro on more machines with the same monitor?
It wasn't D6 Pro (whatever that is) it was the Basicolor version for the Spectraview monitors supplied at the time in the UK. This is going back quite a few years now, but it sounds like there's been little change in practice since then.
I've moved on to Eizo now, so I'm finished with the NEC/Basicolor software now.
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I can only contribute so much to this conversation as I have extremely limited experience with Lumariver and we are a dealer for BasICColor so must be considered biased on the matter. But here are contributions I can make...
1) We have done three webinars (free) on or adjacent to the topic:
Creating ICC Profiles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lza4Eg9Xmm0)
BasICColor Input Pro (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG4jqoCdhaI)
BasICColor Software Demo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV9Js9k8bwg&t=48s)
2) My experience with Franz the lead engineer for BasICColor has been extremely positive. He knows his stuff and has a great attitude/work-ethic for helping resolve issues.
3) Most of our Heritage clients (museums, libraries, archives) use BasICColor for their profiling needs.
4) Partly due to (3) our Digitization Guide for using Capture One to digitize (reproduce) art and other reflective material (https://heritage-digitaltransitions.com/product/digitization-workflows-reflective-pdf-download/) uses BasICColor in the steps involving creating in-situ color profiles.
5) I see a lot of complaints about their licensing. I can't speak to what things were like in the past or through other vendors/methods of purchase, but if you purchase BasICColor (https://heritage-digitaltransitions.com/product/basiccolor-input-6/) from us we will make sure you do not have any issues with managing/using your license.
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I can only contribute so much to this conversation as I have extremely limited experience with Lumariver and we are a dealer for BasICColor so must be considered biased on the matter. But here are contributions I can make...
1) We have done three webinars (free) on or adjacent to the topic:
Creating ICC Profiles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lza4Eg9Xmm0)
BasICColor Input Pro (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG4jqoCdhaI)
BasICColor Software Demo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV9Js9k8bwg&t=48s)
2) My experience with Franz the lead engineer for BasICColor has been extremely positive. He knows his stuff and has a great attitude/work-ethic for helping resolve issues.
3) Most of our Heritage clients (museums, libraries, archives) use BasICColor for their profiling needs.
4) Partly due to (3) our Digitization Guide for using Capture One to digitize (reproduce) art and other reflective material (https://heritage-digitaltransitions.com/product/digitization-workflows-reflective-pdf-download/) uses BasICColor in the steps involving creating in-situ color profiles.
5) I see a lot of complaints about their licensing. I can't speak to what things were like in the past or through other vendors/methods of purchase, but if you purchase BasICColor (https://heritage-digitaltransitions.com/product/basiccolor-input-6/) from us we will make sure you do not have any issues with managing/using your license.
I purchased my license through DT and I like the software, it was just a purchasing experience I didn't expect. It seems to have two human intermediaries for something that to me should be pretty automatic. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of humans, but to actually get the license, I had to wait a week for the person at BasICColor to get back from vacation where it then got sent to me via a person at DT. Moving licenses seems to involve a human at BasICColor too. It seems like there could be a better approach but I also realize that DT is not in charge of that. It's like using dongles with ImagePrint. Seems like things could be improved sitting here in 2021 :).
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I did hear from Franz this morning (after a bit of nudging). We connected via remote access and I was able to show him the issues I'm having. I'm sure he will work it out.
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The folks at basiccolor were kind enough to give me some time to try Basiccolor Input 6 Pro. And I can confirm that it is an outstanding product and the best profiling software I've used. I did take the time to test it head-to-head versus some others. So I purchased a license. Input 6 Pro is currently $800, and in working, usable condition it's worth it. I had hoped to update the thread here with some of my positive experiences using the software, but unfortunately the licensing issues persist, and I'm thus far unable to activate either the Input 6 Pro license, or an additional Display 6 license I purchased. The licensing server is inaccessible, and that's probably a good thing because on the basiccolor website there's a notification that they are working on it, so hopefully these issues get resolved. Unfortunately the manual licensing method is currently not working for me either. I'm really hoping they work these issues out not just for me, but for anyone else, as it's unfortunate to see a really outstanding product getting sunk by the persistent problems with getting a license activated so one can actually use it. I would think a third party solution to handle the software licensing / activation would be the way to go, and if that means the software becomes a little more expensive I know I would gladly pay a little extra, as it is very frustrating to pay for something, and then either not be able to use it, or go through days of back and forth emails to Europe to try to activate a license, not to mention the expense of all that time for folks on both ends.
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I had hoped to update the thread here with some of my positive experiences using the software, but unfortunately the licensing issues persist, and I'm thus far unable to activate either the Input 6 Pro license, or an additional Display 6 license I purchased. The licensing server is inaccessible....
You were warned.
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I am also in the business of producing highly accurate artwork reproductions, and would be very interested to know what particular advantages you may have found in Basicolor Input 6 vs Lumariver Repro for that purpose.
I trialled the earlier Basiccolor Input 5 at the time before eventually purchasing Lumariver (I had previously used the Gretag Macbeth ProfileMaker input module) and found that there were subtle differences in the profiles generated, primarily in terms of hue discrimination in the deep red/brown region, but that they were so slight that it was hard to say which, if either, was the superior profile. For some images the Lumariver profile appeared to be superior, while for others I thought the Basiccolor one was a little better. I haven't as yet re-run the comparison with Basiccolor Input 6.
Basiccolor Input does offer some operational refinements and conveniences over Lumariver, but at a very substantial difference in cost and with the added disadvantage of an arcane and inflexible licensing procedure. I might still consider switching to Basiccolor if its latest incarnation were to produce consistently better profiles that reduced any need for subsequent tweaking of the image, but the improvement over the already very good profiles from Lumariver Repro would need to be significant to make it worthwhile. Any insights you can share would be appreciated, thank you.
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I am also in the business of producing highly accurate artwork reproductions, and would be very interested to know what particular advantages you may have found in Basicolor Input 6 vs Lumariver Repro for that purpose.
I trialled the earlier Basiccolor Input 5 at the time before eventually purchasing Lumariver (I had previously used the Gretag Macbeth ProfileMaker input module) and found that there were subtle differences in the profiles generated, primarily in terms of hue discrimination in the deep red/brown region, but that they were so slight that it was hard to say which, if either, was the superior profile. For some images the Lumariver profile appeared to be superior, while for others I thought the Basiccolor one was a little better. I haven't as yet re-run the comparison with Basiccolor Input 6.
Basiccolor Input does offer some operational refinements and conveniences over Lumariver, but at a very substantial difference in cost and with the added disadvantage of an arcane and inflexible licensing procedure. I might still consider switching to Basiccolor if its latest incarnation were to produce consistently better profiles that reduced any need for subsequent tweaking of the image, but the improvement over the already very good profiles from Lumariver Repro would need to be significant to make it worthwhile. Any insights you can share would be appreciated, thank you.
Basiccolor was kind enough to give me a true working trial, so I was able to completely evaluate Input 6 Pro before purchasing. That trust went a long way towards selling it to me. I didn't get far with LumaRiver, maybe too many settings there, but as it's not a true working trial I also wasn't very motivated. Basiccolor was extremely easy to use. This was a deciding factor to me as I wanted not only for me to be able to use the software, but for anyone I have working here to be able to step in if needed. My very first profile following the very simple instructions that took me only a few minutes to create, was amazingly close to perfection as I applied the profile to a particularly challenging image of a painting. So, frankly, after that I wasn't really interested in trying any other software. I also had 2 other pieces here, pastels / chalk on colored paper that would be time consuming to reproduce accurately, and that first profile created with Basiccolor I had a deliverable proof immediately, and a perfect match after just a few slight adjustments. The painter Chris Campbell is more experienced with Basiccolor, and Chris had given me come insights via email before I got started. Everything Chris said has been confirmed in the short time I have used the software. Chris has some of the best videos on proper capture and reproduction of artwork I've seen. I also put Basiccolor up against 2 other profiling systems, (QP and Xrite) using the same challenging painting and it was no contest. Basiccolor essentially nailed the colors, while QP and Xrite delivered vastly oversaturated results. So for what I do, Basiccolor is a great tool to have in the tool box. The price is reasonable, and as I said I would gladly pay more for an easier time with licensing / activation! :)
I am working through the activation of the software with basiccolor. I am confident we will get it done, and for me, it's ultimately worth the hassle. I recognize it's a niche product, and frankly I have nothing but respect for what they have accomplished, not only with Basiccolor input 6, but also Display 6. Even if the price of Input 6 Pro is too steep for you, I would recommend Display 6 as a big improvement to one's workflow as it is superior to Xrite Spectraview, which is what I used previously. I do recognize that a lot of people won't tolerate the potential issues with licensing / activation, but considering what the folks at basiccolor have accomplished, their sincerity and commitment to work out any issues, I'm willing to work through it.
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Thank you for that detailed explanation. I can't now recall whether I was able to run a full evaluation of Lumariver at the time and they changed their trial version subsequently, or if I had already purchased the full version at the promotional release price prior to evaluating Basiccolor 5. I do get excellent results from the Lumariver profiles, with most images only needing very minor adjustments to the black and white points and the saturation (the profiles are built on a linear curve).
I agree about the settings in Lumariver, which are perhaps both a strength and a weakness; Basiccolor is certainly simpler to use out of the box, and will also batch process profiles IIRC, vs. singly in Lumariver, though I didn't find the latter a major disadvantage. It might be interesting to run a further comparison at some point, if Basiccolor will permit a further trial of v6 after already having trialled v5.
FWIW, I have already trialled Display 6 to see if it was an improvement over SpectraView Profiler View 5 on my NEC SpectraView Reference 271 monitor, since that version of SV Profiler reached end of life several years ago and additionally appears to have problems driving an i1 Display Pro, though it is listed as supported (it works fine with my i1Pro spectro). I also have an Eizo CS2731 and it seemed to make sense to have a single profiler driving both monitors if possible.
Unfortunately Display 6 also appears to have problems with the i1 Display Pro and SV271 combination and on several occasions drove the monitor to maximum brightness and stalled at that point, requiring a full factory reset of the monitor to resolve the situation. It also has similar licensing issues to Input 6. In the end I reverted to SV Profiler 5 and the i1Pro Spectro, which at least works without hassle on the NEC. The i1 Display Pro works perfectly with Eizo's Color Navigator on the CS2731 but I seem to recall it also having a few issues with Display 6 on that monitor, so at that point I lost interest in Display 6 completely. Which was something of a disappointment after the rave reviews I had read about the product. But I'm not prepared to waste hours trying to coax it into working properly, especially on a production machine. I don't doubt that Basiccolor's underlying colour engineering is one of the best, but their software packages do seem to have some usability issues overall.
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basICColor has resolved the issue with activating the licenses via offline activation now, and I'm activated and up and running with Input 6 Pro. Also added another Display 6 license to another workstation here. Hands down both of these tools are the best I've used for Camera Profiling and Display Calibration respectively. I've been printing for artists, photographers, galleries and museums for over 20 years now. If your work requires ACCURATE color, not "improved" color, I give basICColor Input 6 Pro and basICColor Display 6 my highest recommendation. Easily two of the best tools I've added to my toolbox.
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Just want to add my 2 cents about a brand new feature in Basiccolor Input 6 Pro: Measuring your own targets, inside the program, without any fuzzling around with measurement tools, data conversion and so on. Makes a huge difference for me.
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Some might also want to take a look to 3dlutcreator for color correction. It's also a very powerful tool wich has excellent merits and abilities in the color domain, not only creating lut correction and color profiles. It's a différent approach, but this software has some incredible features compared to basiccolor or lumariver.
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basICColor has resolved the issue with activating the licenses via offline activation now, and I'm activated and up and running with Input 6 Pro. Also added another Display 6 license to another workstation here. Hands down both of these tools are the best I've used for Camera Profiling and Display Calibration respectively. I've been printing for artists, photographers, galleries and museums for over 20 years now. If your work requires ACCURATE color, not "improved" color, I give basICColor Input 6 Pro and basICColor Display 6 my highest recommendation. Easily two of the best tools I've added to my toolbox.
May I ask which color target you’re using with Input 6 Pro?
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I did hear from Franz this morning (after a bit of nudging). We connected via remote access and I was able to show him the issues I'm having. I'm sure he will work it out.
As an update, Franz worked with me several times over video conferencing to get this figured out. As it turns out, the software was crashing because of an error in my HCT target data file. Franz fixed the file and no more crashing. :-D
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May I ask which color target you’re using with Input 6 Pro?
ColorChecker SG and Munsell Linear Grey Scale (better precision on gray linearity).
Due to the stability of the dyes it is important to take your chart measurements regularly.