Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine

[Robert Roaldi]

But it was sold as preventing getting Covid.  Now the scientists are saying, well no, all or most vaccines just protect from getting the disease too severely.  Which is it?  Why didn't they say that in the beginning?

All scientists have always said that. You are setting up a fake fact and using that fake fact to imply that scientists lied to you. We have been here before with you, many times.

Here's the real truth. All the world's scientists lie to you all the time and they do it for the money, because it's such a lucrative way to make a living, and because they love driving people on forums crazy. I know because I asked them and one night one of them got drunk and admitted it. I know several virologists with condos in Vale. They sit there and count their money and laugh at people who take vaccines. My advice, don't listen to medical personnel, don't read scientific journals, don't get vaccinated again.

And all those people clogging up ICUs in Idaho, Texas and other places, it's all fake news. It's just doctors milking your insurance company. And all those insurance companies competing to keep medical costs low, they just raise premiums when they don't make enough money. In fact, they compete to see who can raise them the fastest. Got one of them drunk, they'll tell you, they love to brag about it. If you get upset, don't key his Mercedes, it's got cameras recording everything.

The reason that your surgeon wears latex gloves is to jack up the price of your appendectomy, that no-good sneak. What do you expect, he have to make the payments on his wife's Tesla, can you blame him?

You know what else, relativity is not true, there's no such thing as quantum mechanics or solid state physics and the computer that you're reading this on is fake, it's all done with photoshop. I mean, have you ever actually seen an electron?

Keep making up stuff about what the experts tell you and please keep telling us about how they lie to you and fail to deliver the promises that you invented that they made to you.

Don't listen to anyone.

[TechTalk]

Vaccinated people might be exposed to a viral load, why wouldn't they?

A vaccinated individual could be exposed to a larger or smaller volume of virus at higher or lower concentrations; or one of a variety of different variants; or at a point when their health is generally better or worse; or their immune system generally is more or less vulnerable; exposed once or multiple times; exposed at different times in different locations; exposed by a passing stranger or someone with whom they have frequent close contact; etc.—so, would any person with normal common sense expect the effectiveness of protection to vary from one individual to another?

And if, at the end of controlled clinical trials, a vaccine is said to have say 90% efficacy in preventing mild disease and 100% efficacy in preventing severe disease, wouldn't common sense indicate that there is variability in the level of protective efficacy among the individuals in the control group?

And if, with enough repetition, you can eventually get thru to an information resistant individual that there is a difference between efficacy (a figure applied to controlled clinical trials with a limited number of healthy volunteers; monitored over a limited period of time; within a limited number of areas) and the frequently lower effectiveness (a figure applied to the entire population with varied levels of health; over an indefinite period of time; over the entire area of vaccination coverage; with whatever variety of mutated variants have emerged)—would it have any affect on their thinking? Nah... probably not. They'll more likely still believe that "the scientists" and "the press" [The narrower the mind, the broader the statement. - Ted Cook] are engaged in a con game increasing their doubts.

https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/vaccine-efficacy-effectiveness-and-protection

[Chris Kern]

You know what else, relativity is not true, there's no such thing as quantum mechanics or solid state physics and the computer that you're reading this on is fake, it's all done with photoshop. I mean, have you ever actually seen an electron?

Have you been authorized to reveal all this seecrit stuff in a public forum?

[TechTalk]

Don't listen to anyone.

Someone said that social media and YouTube videos were a reliable way of evaluating to which people you should or shouldn't listen. I think it may have been the same Someone who has suggested that the COVID and flu vaccines shouldn't even be called vaccines at all. Someone has always been a reliable source of advice.

[Peter McLennan]

Many posts quote someone else and no link is provided.  So this one could have been seen as a quote without attribution.

Yes, many do.  But not TechTalk.  He simply doesn't do that.

Which makes it all the more interesting why Slobodan chose to question him on this point.

[Peter McLennan]

All scientists have always said that. You are setting up a fake fact and using that fake fact to imply that scientists lied to you. We have been here before with you, many times.

Here's the real truth. All the world's scientists lie to you all the time and they do it for the money, because it's such a lucrative way to make a living, and because they love driving people on forums crazy. I know because I asked them and one night one of them got drunk and admitted it. I know several virologists with condos in Vale. They sit there and count their money and laugh at people who take vaccines. My advice, don't listen to medical personnel, don't read scientific journals, don't get vaccinated again.

And all those people clogging up ICUs in Idaho, Texas and other places, it's all fake news. It's just doctors milking your insurance company. And all those insurance companies competing to keep medical costs low, they just raise premiums when they don't make enough money. In fact, they compete to see who can raise them the fastest. Got one of them drunk, they'll tell you, they love to brag about it. If you get upset, don't key his Mercedes, it's got cameras recording everything.

The reason that your surgeon wears latex gloves is to jack up the price of your appendectomy, that no-good sneak. What do you expect, he have to make the payments on his wife's Tesla, can you blame him?

You know what else, relativity is not true, there's no such thing as quantum mechanics or solid state physics and the computer that you're reading this on is fake, it's all done with photoshop. I mean, have you ever actually seen an electron?

Keep making up stuff about what the experts tell you and please keep telling us about how they lie to you and fail to deliver the promises that you invented that they made to you.

Don't listen to anyone.

FINILLY!  Some on with the corage to say the trth! 

[Robert Roaldi]

Have you been authorized to reveal all this seecrit stuff in a public forum?

Oops.

[TechTalk]

Many posts quote someone else and no link is provided.  So this one could have been seen as a quote without attribution.

Yes, many do.  But not TechTalk.  He simply doesn't do that.

Which makes it all the more interesting why Slobodan chose to question him on this point.

Not an issue with Slobodan. We're good with each other.

Alan was replying to (I believe—it's sometimes hard to tell what he's replying to) my mention of a different instance where some "polite" individual questioned whether what I wrote was original or a "copy from someone else"—and started his reply with "These don't sound like your words." Finishing by telling me ""it would be appropriate to credit the original writer and provide a link". Hardly the worst thing that "polite" individual ever wrote to me.

It wasn't worth following up on Alan's replies about it. They were just spiraling down another rabbit hole.

[TechTalk]

Don't listen to anyone.

I forgot to mention... Internet memes are apparently a good source of enlightenment too.

[TechTalk]

I don't necessarily believe that vaccination reduces the spread.  I seem to recall reading that they found both vaccinated and unvaccinated people were infected in roughly equal or high percentages. ...

When I saw this I wondered what you've been reading. But if by "infected" you simply mean acquire a viral load, of course vaccinated people will be infected as often as unvaccinated people...

Your verbosity is another example how strawmanning works: you gloriously appear to defeat the argument, although that wasn't the argument.

You talk about being infected, and Alan (and I) about being infectious.

Your crusade against verbosity aside, your straw man argument has a glaring hole in it here. Robert was replying to Alan as quoted above.

Alan, who you took the liberty of speaking for, wasn't referring to someone "infectious" as you asserted. Alan spoke of "infected" people to which Robert was responding.

You appear to have gotten a little huffy with Robert over nothing but your own misreading.

[Alan Klein]

When I saw this I wondered what you've been reading. But if by "infected" you simply mean acquire a viral load, of course vaccinated people will be infected as often as unvaccinated people. That's a function of environment and luck. Vaccinations don't create a Start Trek like force field around you. Viruses can still get into your body if you are vaccinated, why wouldn't they, but if you're vaccinated you are better at killing them off. That's the entire basis of herd immunity. If enough people in a society have the ability to kill off a virus relatively quickly after acquiring a load, then you stop a pandemic. This is old science, it was known in 1918. It's virology 101, despite some people claiming that it's a "mystery". It was known in February 2020 too, and public health officials all over the planet warned everyone because the early numbers showed how quickly Covid was spreading and how lethal it was. There was and is no mystery. The disease behaved as predicted. Some listened, some did not.

In daily informal speech, though, when people think "infected" they probably don't simply mean "to acquire a viral load", they mean "get sick". The reality is that we've been surrounded by viruses (and bacteria) every minute of our lives since we've been born, there's nothing new about acquiring a viral load. What matters is how well we fight it off.

My understanding of the vaccine before they started vaccinations, was that the vaccine would prevent you from getting the disease.  That's what was sold early on.  It was only later when "breakthrough" cases were announced after vaccinations had been done for a while and a study was completed, they found that many people who were injected caught the disease anyway although most only had mild or no symptoms. Like I said it was sold that you couldn't catch the disease if you were vaccinated.

[Robert Roaldi]

... Like I said it was sold that you couldn't catch the disease if you were vaccinated.

No, it wasn't. It was never "sold" as a 100% solution by anyone. No vaccine ever has. You're either making this up or deliberately misunderstanding to create controversy where none actually exists.

The web is filled with good info on vaccines, go read it. And all the results of this Covid vaccine are hugely positive. You're attempting to create a false narrative, please stop.

[Alan Klein]

No, it wasn't. It was never "sold" as a 100% solution by anyone. No vaccine ever has. You're either making this up or deliberately misunderstanding to create controversy where none actually exists.

The web is filled with good info on vaccines, go read it. And all the results of this Covid vaccine are hugely positive. You're attempting to create a false narrative, please stop.

They left the impression early on that if you got the vaccines, you were good to go.  It wasn't until after so many breakthroughs came out after the vaccinations were given, that they're now pushing the point that it doesn't stop infections.  It only reduces the effect. 

I was surprised to read that as many people who had the vaccine subsequently got the disease as people who didn't get vaccinated and that the vaccinated could spread it just as easily as the non vaccinated.  I read one article that said more vaccinated people had it from their study.

Addtionally, that means that herd immunity which was claimed to include those vaccinated and those non-vaccinated but infected would stop the disease if we reached a high enough percentage.  Well, if vaccinated people can still spread the disease, that was an erroneous claim.

[PeterAit]

But it was sold as preventing getting Covid.  Now the scientists are saying, well no, all or most vaccines just protect from getting the disease too severely.  Which is it?  Why didn't they say that in the beginning?

The vaccine *DOES* prevent against getting covid. Just not in everyone, but in most people. And for the few vaxxed people who get covid it is less severe. And they didn't say it in the beginning because THEY DIDN'T KNOW!

[Alan Klein]

Just to clarify my point.  I'm not arguing to not get the vaccine. I support them.  I've had my two shots and would take a third if required.  My points are just to remind people that many things were said that turned out differently.  Some of it was deliberate and some inadvertent.  That has caused some people, whether because of politics or science or whatever, to feel they don't trust the vaccines enough to take them.  That's very unfortunate and I hope they change their minds.   

[Alan Klein]

The vaccine *DOES* prevent against getting covid. Just not in everyone, but in most people. And for the few vaxxed people who get covid it is less severe. And they didn't say it in the beginning because THEY DIDN'T KNOW!

Here's an interesting first-person article from Sept 20, 2021, from a reporter who followed the whole Covid thing, who got the disease even though he was vaccinated.   Doctors admit they gave a false impression to the public about its "bulletproofness". A lot of layman had the same belief.

I Got a ‘Mild’ Breakthrough Case. Here’s What I Wish I’d Known.
.... Is it time for a reality check about what the vaccines can — and can’t do?
The vaccines aren’t a force field that wards off all things covid. They were given the green light because they greatly lower your chance of getting seriously ill or dying.

But it was easy for me — and I’m not the only one — to grab onto the idea that, after so many months of trying not to get covid, the vaccine was, more or less, the finish line. And that made getting sick from the virus unnerving.

After all, there were reassuring findings earlier this year that the vaccine was remarkably good at stopping any infection, even mild ones.

“There was so much initial euphoria about how well these vaccines work,” said Dr. Jeff Duchin, an infectious-disease physician and the public health officer for Seattle and King County. “I think we — in the public health community, in the medical community — facilitated the impression that these vaccines are bulletproof.”

It’s hard to keep adjusting your risk calculations. So if you’d hoped to avoid getting sick at all, even slightly, it may be time for a “reset,” Duchin said. This isn’t to be alarmist but a reminder to clear away expectations that covid is out of your life, and stay vigilant about commonsense precautions.
https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210920/i-got-a-mild-breakthrough-case-heres-what-i-wish-id-known

[LesPalenik]

This will be the most effective vaccination incentive:

According to the story by CNBC, Amazon gave away $100 cash bonuses and cars to a number of vaccinated warehouse workers as part of the company's running sweepstakes to help encourage employees that decide to get the vaccine. Four Whole Foods employees and Amazon warehouse workers got awarded cars that were worth as much as $40,000 when they showed proof of their COVID-19 vaccination.

https://www.techtimes.com/articles/265667/20210921/amazon-vaccination-rewards-include-100k-payouts-or-free-cars-to-warehouse-and-whole-foods-employees.htm

[Alan Klein]

This will be the most effective vaccination incentive:

https://www.techtimes.com/articles/265667/20210921/amazon-vaccination-rewards-include-100k-payouts-or-free-cars-to-warehouse-and-whole-foods-employees.htm

Are those Teslas?

[LesPalenik]

Are those Teslas?

Maybe Rivians. since Amazon is invested in that outfit. Couldn't get a discount on Teslas from Musk.

[TechTalk]

You're either making this up or deliberately misunderstanding to create controversy where none actually exists.

Everywhere open commentary is found online you'll find both of these tactics. Frequently, it is the latter, but is often both. That's the game.

The goal is to draw one or more parties into a circular and endlessly repetitive argument and then attempt to drag you thru a series of diversionary rabbit holes. It's exhausting for those that are engaged in it and a source of endless delight for the originator of the game.