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Author Topic: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine  (Read 107016 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #660 on: April 01, 2021, 04:59:56 pm »

hard to take anyone seriously who still, after more then a year of this, somehow think this will "pass". it won't....I have no clue if vaccines are the answer, what the long term effects of the vaccines or covid are, I do know that masks and washing hands work (to a degree) and that this is real and still very much around and kicking and morphing.....
I am probably more worried about my livelihood then you are, which is also why I have taken this seriously from day one on and taken and adjusted to all measures put in place....my kids missed a year of school and after school sports....and everything we (as a family) have sacrificed has been less effective because of people like you....
what on earth is wrong with you to think that NOW, a year later this will just magically pass?!
I'm sorry you're having difficulty.  But you are the point I'm trying to make. After the virus is gone, and it's predicted it will be gone soon, the country and world will be left with economic problems to deal with.  People who have lost their businesses, jobs, and livelihoods.  While many people seemed to not be concerned with these things and moved to fight the disease to a higher level than jobs, once the disease is gone, we're left with the economic issues.  I hope things work out for you and your family.  I'm sure it must be very tough on you all.

TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #661 on: April 01, 2021, 05:33:48 pm »

You're beating this thing to death to prove a minor and silly point.  Who cares if your interpretation differs from mine? We've passed that issue of what someone said about some insignificant article that proved nothing... The earlier discussion points are outdated.

Just to lay a wreath on the grave of what you understandably now want to bury and forget, I only made a grand total of two posts on this subject prior to your post above. The first post I made was only after you had made multiple false assertions in multiple posts. I pointed out that you clearly misunderstood what a poster (degrub) had said. I also pointed out that your repeated claims of "correcting" a statement were unfounded. It was just your own misreading and resulting assertion of what you stated as his "erroneous" "claim" which needed "correcting".

The second post was just a response to your reply in which you attempted to obfuscate by ignoring and deliberately skipping over the original post that contained what I had quoted and your reply. I pointed out that no one had made the statement (except yourself) which you repeatedly claimed to be correcting. If two posts is "beating this thing to death", you must have run over it with a bulldozer.

Those two posts and this one were made because, you have all too often made false assumptions and assertions regarding what others have said in a post. It has been pointed out to you multiple times, by multiple people, in multiple threads and yet you persist. In my opinion, it's a result of being in a rush to reply and as a result, hastily made assumptions come out as a false assertion regarding what someone has written or means in your reply. I'm not saying nor implying that it is intentional. I'm suggesting, again in my opinion, that some of your replies would be less contentious and more accurate if you took a bit more time to consider what someone is actually saying before hitting reply.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 06:21:32 pm by TechTalk »
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Chris Kern

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #662 on: April 01, 2021, 05:33:56 pm »

I have no clue if vaccines are the answer . . .

I think it's fairly clear that vaccines are the answer.  The things that aren't clear yet are (1) how effective the current vaccines will turn out to be against the mutations of the SARS-CoV-2 virus that are currently circulating in various places, (2) whether those of us who have been "fully" vaccinated will need additional doses or different vaccines to deal with the mutating virus, (3) how transmissible the virus is by individuals who have been vaccinated, (4) how durable the protection offered by the various vaccines will prove to be, and (5) whether enough of the world population can be vaccinated in order to reasonably consider the virus under control.

The first four questions can be answered by gathering more evidence.  It will take time and considerable monitoring of the real-world performance of the vaccines, but definitive answers should be possible.  The fifth issue is the one that worries me.  I don't see any indication yet of the ramping up of an international effort that would be sufficient to deploy an effective vaccination effort everywhere and, as we all learned all too quickly at the beginning of 2020, a virus as aggressive as this one is no respecter of national borders or oceans.

TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #663 on: April 01, 2021, 05:50:27 pm »

An excellent and informative post. I would only add  to your comments — "(5) whether enough of the world population can be vaccinated in order to reasonably consider the virus under control." "The fifth issue is the one that worries me.  I don't see any indication yet of the ramping up of an international effort that would be sufficient to deploy an effective vaccination effort everywhere and, as we all learned all too quickly at the beginning of 2020, a virus as aggressive as this one is no respecter of national borders or oceans." — that this should be of concern to everyone. Until the world has sufficient immunity everywhere, the virus will continue to mutate and allow the possibility for one or more variants to emerge with the potential to be worse than the original or current known variants.

It's the reason why a pandemic like this has to be taken seriously everywhere and brought under control as quickly as possible to prevent further spread and mutation. This particular virus has shown a worrisome ability to spread quickly and to mutate into more transmissible and potentially deadlier variants.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 05:56:05 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #664 on: April 01, 2021, 06:05:35 pm »

Science isn't the truth.

Science is the never ending search for the best available understanding and explanation of what is observed in the natural world.

Do not put your trust in princes.

You can however trust that science will continually evolve in better understanding the natural world as that's what science and nature do—evolve.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #665 on: April 01, 2021, 06:14:23 pm »

Science isn't the truth.  And people make mistakes.  And everyone has agendas, even scientists.  You have to use discernment.  Do not put your trust in princes.

Please spare us this drivel.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #666 on: April 01, 2021, 07:07:53 pm »

Just to lay a wreath on the grave of what you understandably now want to bury and forget, I only made a grand total of two posts on this subject prior to your post above. The first post I made was only after you had made multiple false assertions in multiple posts. I pointed out that you clearly misunderstood what a poster (degrub) had said. I also pointed out that your repeated claims of "correcting" a statement were unfounded. It was just your own misreading and resulting assertion of what you stated as his "erroneous" "claim" which needed "correcting".

The second post was just a response to your reply in which you attempted to obfuscate by ignoring and deliberately skipping over the original post that contained what I had quoted and your reply. I pointed out that no one had made the statement (except yourself) which you repeatedly claimed to be correcting. If two posts is "beating this thing to death", you must have run over it with a bulldozer.

Those two posts and this one were made because, you have all too often made false assumptions and assertions regarding what others have said in a post. It has been pointed out to you multiple times, by multiple people, in multiple threads and yet you persist. In my opinion, it's a result of being in a rush to reply and as a result, hastily made assumptions come out as a false assertion regarding what someone has written or means in your reply. I'm not saying nor implying that it is intentional. I'm suggesting, again in my opinion, that some of your replies would be less contentious and more accurate if you took a bit more time to consider what someone is actually saying before hitting reply.
Well, now you posted three posts.  I hope you feel better.  :)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #667 on: April 01, 2021, 07:40:40 pm »

I think it's fairly clear that vaccines are the answer....

They most certainly are not. Unless we want to vaccinate the whole world every six months. And invent newer and newer vaccines for newer and newer virus strains. The ONLY answer is improving one’s immune system. And deal with it like we deal with a seasonal flu. That is, some will take a vaccine, some won’t, and we won’t crash the economy every year and screw lives of 99.9x percent of the population for the sake of fat bitches who don’t want to take care of their own health.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #668 on: April 01, 2021, 07:42:41 pm »

....and everything we (as a family) have sacrificed has been less effective because of people like you....

 ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 02:38:32 am by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #669 on: April 01, 2021, 08:54:01 pm »

I think it's fairly clear that vaccines are the answer....

They most certainly are not. Unless we want to vaccinate the whole world every six months. And invent newer and newer vaccines for newer and newer virus strains. The ONLY answer is improving one’s immune system. And deal with it like we deal with a seasonal flu. That is, some will take a vaccine, some won’t, and we won’t crash the economy every year and screw lives of 99.9x percent of the population for the sake of fat bitches who don’t want to take care of their own health.

This is why no one should ever ever take medical advice or public health recommendations from some online comment. As for, "The ONLY answer is improving one’s immune system."; well, that's what vaccines do in a very specific and effective way.
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Chris Kern

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #670 on: April 01, 2021, 09:01:22 pm »

The ONLY answer is improving one’s immune system.

Yes, but that's a good way of describing what vaccines do.  They prime the recipient's immune system to react effectively to the invading pathogen.

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And deal with it like we deal with a seasonal flu. That is, some will take a vaccine, some won’t . . .

That indeed is what may happen, which is why I'm not optimistic about getting this coronavirus under control without a concerted multinational effort unless it takes a currently unexpected turn and mutates in new, more benign directions.  This virus is very different from any influenza.  It is significantly more infectious and more lethal, especially to old people who are otherwise healthy.  If we don't get it under control, I suspect we will be living with its disruptions indefinitely.

TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #671 on: April 01, 2021, 09:18:11 pm »

Thanks. That's a much better reasoned and complete response than my own, with an accurate assessment of the evolving situation as it appears today. I may be a little more optimistic about the possibility of a strong multinational effort in pursuit of global vaccination; but, only time will tell.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #672 on: April 02, 2021, 02:35:49 am »

... This virus is very different from any influenza.  It is significantly more infectious and more lethal...

Actually, as I am sure you already know, the flu killed more people than Covid ever will. Just the Spanish flu killed about 3% of the world population, while Covid currently stands at 1/100 of that (0.03%). That calc doesn’t even take into account annual death toll from the flu ever since (or before).

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #673 on: April 02, 2021, 07:58:39 am »

Actually, as I am sure you already know, the flu killed more people than Covid ever will. Just the Spanish flu killed about 3% of the world population, while Covid currently stands at 1/100 of that (0.03%). That calc doesn’t even take into account annual death toll from the flu ever since (or before).

Sounds like you're still clinging to the "this is just another flu, nothing to see here" line.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #674 on: April 02, 2021, 09:58:11 am »

Actually, as I am sure you already know, the flu killed more people than Covid ever will. Just the Spanish flu killed about 3% of the world population, while Covid currently stands at 1/100 of that (0.03%). That calc doesn’t even take into account annual death toll from the flu ever since (or before).

Comparison of Spanish Flu in 1918-20 and Covid-19 in 2020 is a compelling point of view. There were no vaccines for the Spanish Flu, but at that time people were not such wussies as today and their immune system must have been stronger. They had fewer comorbidities due to obesity, diabetes, and poor nutrition, and generally they didn't suffer from the lack of vitamin D, so the large percentage of Spanish Flu deaths can be explained only by the lack of ventilators and also by rather poor distribution of necessary information due to missing Internet.
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Chris Kern

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #675 on: April 02, 2021, 10:03:52 am »

Actually, as I am sure you already know, the flu killed more people than Covid ever will. Just the Spanish flu killed about 3% of the world population . . .

Actually, as I'm sure you already know, the H1N1 virus that caused the 1918 pandemic was very different from the influenza viruses (including H1N1 variants) which circulate today.  That older H1N1 no longer exists in the wild, but it has been reconstructed in the laboratory in an attempt to discover why so many people died.  Secondary infections, such as pneumonia, may have been a significant factor.  (Many 'flu deaths today are attributable to pneumonia.)  Much about the 1918 pandemic is still unknown, but the environment in which that virus spread probably accounted for much of its mortality:

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Besides the properties of the virus itself, many additional factors contributed to the virulence of the 1918 pandemic.  In 1918, the world was still engaged in World War I.  Movement and mobilization of troops placed large numbers of people in close contact and living spaces were overcrowded.  Health services were limited, and up to 30% of U.S. physicians were deployed to military service.

In addition, medical technology and countermeasures at the time were limited or non-existent.  No diagnostic tests existed at the time that could test for influenza infection.  In fact, doctors didn’t know influenza viruses existed.  Many health experts at the time thought the 1918 pandemic was caused by a bacterium called “Pfeiffer’s bacillus,” which is now known as Haemophilus influenzae.

Influenza vaccines did not exist at the time, and even antibiotics had not been developed yet.  For example, penicillin was not discovered until 1928.  Likewise, no flu antiviral drugs were available.  Critical care measures, such as intensive care support and mechanical ventilation also were not available in 1918.  Without these medical countermeasures and treatment capabilities, doctors were left with few treatment options other than supportive care.

In terms of national, state and local pandemic planning, no coordinated pandemic plans existed in 1918.  Some cities managed to implement community mitigation measures, such as closing schools, banning public gatherings, and issuing isolation or quarantine orders, but the federal government had no centralized role in helping to plan or initiate these interventions during the 1918 pandemic.

     —The Deadliest Flu: The Complete Story of the Discovery and Reconstruction of the 1918 Pandemic Virus, publication of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

Modern influenza viruses are still a serious health risk, especially for the unvaccinated.  But the SARS-CoV-2 virus is so far unique in that it spreads rapidly and silently: the majority of those infected are asymptomatic, and therefore transmit the pathogen unknowingly—including to individuals who are much more vulnerable for a variety of reasons and who do develop symptoms which can escalate radically, often resulting in death.  Attempts to equate it with "the 'flu" don't make any sense.

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #676 on: April 02, 2021, 10:09:02 am »

Comparison of Spanish Flu in 1918-20 and Covid-19 in 2020 is a compelling point of view. There were no vaccines for the Spanish Flu, but at that time people were not such wussies as today and their immune system must have been stronger. They had fewer comorbidities due to obesity, diabetes, and poor nutrition, and generally they didn't suffer from the lack of vitamin D, so the large percentage of Spanish Flu deaths can be explained only by the lack of ventilators and also by rather poor distribution of necessary information due to missing Internet.
Their rules were sterner in many cases.  One guy who refused to wear a mask was shot by a cop.  Churches and saloons were exempt.  "Open face" sneezers were arrested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#/media/File:1918_Headlines_from_Chicago_newspapers_-_Spanish_flu_-_1918_influenza_pandemic.jpg

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #677 on: April 02, 2021, 10:35:02 am »

... majority of those infected are asymptomatic, and therefore transmit the pathogen unknowingly...

Asymptomatic transmission accounts from zero to negligible. Which makes perfect sense. If you have no symptoms, you are not coughing or sneezing. The asymptomatic cases are also caused by a low viral load, therefore even their breathing contains even smaller viral load, acting almost like a vaccine for the recipients.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #678 on: April 02, 2021, 10:35:41 am »

Sounds like you're still clinging to the "this is just another flu, nothing to see here" line.

You got it.

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #679 on: April 02, 2021, 12:58:33 pm »

Fully vaccinated people can travel at low risk to themselves, new CDC guidance says
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/02/health/cdc-travel-guidance-fully-vaccinated-wellness/index.html
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