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Author Topic: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine  (Read 77800 times)

Peter McLennan

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2120 on: November 02, 2021, 08:38:46 pm »

Well, we have more gun deaths too.  I wouldn't be surprised if we have more auto and drug deaths than others as well.  We get into more wars and conflicts than others.  We just can't sit still like Canadians, be quiet, and mind our own business.  :) 

Freedom costs.

So, Canadians, sitting quiet and minding our own business, aren't free?
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Chris Kern

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2121 on: November 02, 2021, 08:56:21 pm »

So, Canadians, sitting quiet and minding our own business, aren't free?

I would encourage all Canadiansóand those of us south of the border, as wellóto feel free to ignore the off-topic senseless rants that appear all too often in this forum thread.

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2122 on: November 04, 2021, 04:00:06 pm »

Should we mandate vaccines?  Are these rules constitutional?

"The Occupational Safety and Health Administration is giving employers with more than 100 employees a Jan. 4 deadline to comply with President Biden's COVID-19 vaccine mandate and threatening thousands of dollars in fines for defiant businesses, according to a fact sheet released by the White House Thursday.

The OSHA rule is expected to be immediately challenged in court by Republican states and some business groups.

Separate from OSHA, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services is issuing a rule to require health care workers in facilities participating in Medicare and Medicaid be fully vaccinated. The CMS rule will also go into effect Jan. 4 and will cover more than 17 million workers at approximately 76,000 health care facilities nationwide.

Unlike the OSHA rule, the CMS rule affecting health care workers does not allow for a testing alternative to vaccination. The CMS rule does allow for medical and religious exemptions."
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/osha-vaccine-mandate-employers-jan-4-deadline-fines

Manoli

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2123 on: November 04, 2021, 05:41:28 pm »

Should we mandate vaccines?  Are these rules constitutional?

Is there a prohibition on common sense in the constitution ?

With the onset of winter and a not unsurprising pick up in Covid infections, governments are stepping in to safeguard both citizens and their respective health services.

Quote
Government decision to tighten restrictions on unvaccinated people to stem the spread of coronavirus, ruling out the possibility of a new nationwide lockdown.

Now that the vaccine is available, economic and social activity will not be shut down. The government does not want to deprive vaccinated people of rights that were granted to them after following the safety recommendations of scientists and of the state.

Those who have not yet safeguarded [their health] with the vaccine will undergo stricter monitoring, with more frequent testing, so as to protect themselves and the people around them.

* All unvaccinated people [those without a valid certificate of vaccination] will be obliged to display a recent negative test to enter all indoor public areas, including banks, most shops, government buildings and hair salons.
* The same will apply to outdoor restaurant areas and cafes. Exceptions will be made for supermarkets, shops selling food, pharmacies and places of worship.
* All public and private sector employees will also have to display negative tests twice a week to enter their workplaces, instead of once as is now the case.

Sounds as though Gov doing it's duty to protect their citizens.
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2124 on: November 04, 2021, 08:07:08 pm »

For those that would like to read original source documents...

Fact Sheet: Biden Administration Announces Details of Two Major Vaccination Policies - November 4, 2021

https://www.whitehouse.gov/statements-releases/2021/11/04/fact-sheet-biden-administration-announces-details-of-two-major-vaccination-policies


WHITE HOUSE REPORT: Vaccination Requirements Are Helping Vaccinate More People, Protect Americans from COVID-19, and Strengthen the Economy - October 7, 2021

https://www.whitehouse.gov/2021/10/Vaccination-Requirements-Report.pdf
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chez

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2125 on: November 04, 2021, 08:26:07 pm »

Should we mandate vaccines?  Are these rules constitutional?

"The Occupational Safety and Health Administration is giving employers with more than 100 employees a Jan. 4 deadline to comply with President Biden's COVID-19 vaccine mandate and threatening thousands of dollars in fines for defiant businesses, according to a fact sheet released by the White House Thursday.

The OSHA rule is expected to be immediately challenged in court by Republican states and some business groups.

Separate from OSHA, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services is issuing a rule to require health care workers in facilities participating in Medicare and Medicaid be fully vaccinated. The CMS rule will also go into effect Jan. 4 and will cover more than 17 million workers at approximately 76,000 health care facilities nationwide.

Unlike the OSHA rule, the CMS rule affecting health care workers does not allow for a testing alternative to vaccination. The CMS rule does allow for medical and religious exemptions."
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/osha-vaccine-mandate-employers-jan-4-deadline-fines


People have a choice...but I sure as hell don't want my doctor, nurse or dentist that is looking after me to not be vaccinated. I would not want to be in a business meeting with someone not vaccinated. I sure in hell don't want to see children being taught by teachers that are not vaccinated. So yeh, people should have a choice about vaccinations, but that choice has consequences and one of them is they might not be able to perform the job they do today.

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LesPalenik

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2126 on: November 04, 2021, 08:30:42 pm »

Should we mandate vaccines?  Are these rules constitutional?

Reuters - Ford Motor will require most of its 32,000-strong U.S. salaried workforce to be vaccinated by Dec. 8.
I wonder why they exempted the assembly line workers.
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2127 on: November 04, 2021, 08:38:36 pm »

Is there a prohibition on common sense in the constitution ?

With the onset of winter and a not unsurprising pick up in Covid infections, governments are stepping in to safeguard both citizens and their respective health services.

Quote
Government decision to tighten restrictions on unvaccinated people to stem the spread of coronavirus, ruling out the possibility of a new nationwide lockdown.
Now that the vaccine is available, economic and social activity will not be shut down. The government does not want to deprive vaccinated people of rights that were granted to them after following the safety recommendations of scientists and of the state.

Those who have not yet safeguarded [their health] with the vaccine will undergo stricter monitoring, with more frequent testing, so as to protect themselves and the people around them.

* All unvaccinated people [those without a valid certificate of vaccination] will be obliged to display a recent negative test to enter all indoor public areas, including banks, most shops, government buildings and hair salons.
* The same will apply to outdoor restaurant areas and cafes. Exceptions will be made for supermarkets, shops selling food, pharmacies and places of worship.
* All public and private sector employees will also have to display negative tests twice a week to enter their workplaces, instead of once as is now the case.
Sounds as though Gov doing it's duty to protect their citizens.

Just so that it's clear to others, the quote that you included in your article is regarding Greece and their recently announced restrictions. The article linked below from a Greek publication matches your quote.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/1171032/pm-defends-latest-measures-rules-out-general-lockdown

Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis has defended his governmentís decision to tighten restrictions on unvaccinated people to stem the spread of coronavirus as new daily cases set a new record Tuesday, while ruling out the possibility of a new nationwide lockdown.
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2128 on: November 04, 2021, 08:44:32 pm »

Reuters - Ford Motor will require most of its 32,000-strong U.S. salaried workforce to be vaccinated by Dec. 8.
I wonder why they exempted the assembly line workers.

For the sake of accuracy, the article does NOT say "they exempted the assembly line workers". The article from Reuters that you linked says...

Ford was still evaluating its policy for "manufacturing locations, parts depots and Ford Credit, including analyzing federal and collective bargaining requirements."
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Manoli

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2129 on: November 04, 2021, 09:19:20 pm »

Just so that it's clear to others, the quote that you included in your article is regarding Greece and their recently announced restrictions. The article linked below from a Greek publication matches your quote.

Yes, the article is as reported by Kathimerini. I left out the specific country reference as these revised measures are either already active or in the process of being implemented in principle across several countries in the EU.  I canít say definitively which ones, I havenít followed it that closely, but you can add Italy to the list.

The point I was seeking to emphasize I highlighted in bold, as itís a common thread, namely that these measures are not a step back but the next phase where economic and social activity for the (vaccinated) majority will not be restricted by way of renewed national lockdowns.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2021, 06:44:44 am by Manoli »
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2130 on: November 04, 2021, 09:36:28 pm »

Understood and thanks for posting. Because there are people in the world that are quick to assume and then jump to conclusions, I pointed out that it was a quote about Greece.

Again, thanks for posting it. There's a big world outside of the U.S. and its always good to be informed about what's happening globally.

With regard to vaccines and vaccination efforts, I'd like to see more posts about what's happening in various countries. It's a global pandemic and a global problem to solve.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2131 on: November 04, 2021, 11:20:42 pm »

The US constitution isn't concerned with common sense, only legality.  There are very many stupid laws on the books. Private firms are allowed to have rules requiring vaccines because they are, well, private.  The constitution does not prevent private firms from requiring them.  The main protection the constitution is concerned with is government overreach.  After all, it's the government that has the guns and jails. 

What happens in Greece and in Europe is beside the point.  America has a long tradition of more individual freedoms.  The president isn't a king.  Of course, Biden is trying to get around that by having OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Act) division institute a new safety requirement - getting the vaccine.  The courts will determine if it passes constitutional muster.

Ford is allowing workers not to get the vaccine probably because too many won't get it and they might have to shut down their production line.  They can ill afford less production.  As it is there are no new cars to buy, certainly few below MSRP sticker list prices.

My own personal belief is I wish everyone would get the vaccine who's medically fit to get it.  But I'm not sure I'm in favor of mandates.  That's a slippery slope. 

Manoli

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2132 on: November 05, 2021, 06:58:36 am »

But I'm not sure I'm in favor of mandates.  That's a slippery slope. 

You'll have noted that the 'revised restrictions' don't impinge on freedoms, they only require increased proof that those unvaccinated are indeed covid-free. That you can't, in the majority of European countries, enter a restaurant w/out a vaccination certificate, and your 'freedom' to travel isn't curtailed but subject to limited additional scrutiny and certification is a non-issue - it's a world-wide public health crisis.

Your freedoms end when they begin to impinge on mine.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2021, 07:22:13 am by Manoli »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2133 on: November 05, 2021, 07:14:54 am »

My own personal belief is I wish everyone would get the vaccine who's medically fit to get it.  But I'm not sure I'm in favor of mandates.  That's a slippery slope.

There is an existing mandate to report our incomes and pay taxes. IMO, the reluctance to comply with those laws is nowhere as dangerous as walking around unvaccinated or without a mask.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2134 on: November 05, 2021, 07:37:14 am »

Much more dangerous than possible side effects from the covid and flu vaccinations are many prescriptions for diabetes, heart problems, and numerous unnecessary surgeries and antibiotics.

Quote
Ron Carlson, like many Americans with diabetes, got the message trumpeted in drugmakersí unrelenting ads and reinforced by doctors: Use medications to lower your blood sugar to a specific target, and you can live a longer, healthier life. He took that message to heart, and it killed him.

One evening in July 2019, the retired software engineer arrived at Alís Center Saloon in this lakeside town for his weekly dinner with friends. Just as Carlson was guiding his Honda motorcycle into a parking spot, the bartender at Alís looked out the window to see him stagger and then squeeze the bikeís throttle as he tried to steady himself. The engine roared, the tires squealed, and Carlson sped 30 yards across the lot, slamming into a parked car. Carlson tumbled to the pavement. Blood pooled on the asphalt. Volunteer firefighters and then an ambulance crew tried to revive him, but he was later pronounced dead at a local hospital. He was 66 years old.

The medical examiner attributed Carlsonís death to chest trauma and hypoglycemia, or extremely low blood sugar. Hypoglycemia is a medical emergency characterized by confusion, dizziness and loss of coordination. Untreated, it can quickly lead to coma and death. And itís almost always a side effect of diabetes treatment.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-diabetes-overtreatment/
 
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Manoli

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2135 on: November 05, 2021, 07:42:32 am »

There's a big world outside of the U.S. and its always good to be informed about what's happening globally.

With regard to vaccines and vaccination efforts, I'd like to see more posts about what's happening in various countries. It's a global pandemic and a global problem to solve.

Well, I'm travelling tomorrow to Turkey (against my better judgement) so I'll be able to post a feedback by early next week.

What I can already say though is that the paperwork and certification needed to board an aircraft are really detailed. PLF's (passenger locator forms), vax cerfication inc manufacturer and date, recent full 14-day travel history, next of kin, ID/passport verification (pre-boarding) - all done online and within 48 hours of departure. In the UK , one needs an additional 48 hour post-arrival PCR test, irrespective of vaccination status.

Memories of having turned up at airports 20 minutes before flight departures and the check-in desk being but a short distance to the boarding gate are fading fast.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2136 on: November 05, 2021, 08:15:45 am »

You'll have noted that the 'revised restrictions' don't impinge on freedoms, they only require increased proof that those unvaccinated are indeed covid-free. That you can't, in the majority of European countries, enter a restaurant w/out a vaccination certificate, and your 'freedom' to travel isn't curtailed but subject to limited additional scrutiny and certification is a non-issue - it's a world-wide public health crisis.

Your freedoms end when they begin to impinge on mine.
You don't have to travel to my country and I don't have to travel to yours. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2137 on: November 05, 2021, 08:22:50 am »

There is an existing mandate to report our incomes and pay taxes. IMO, the reluctance to comply with those laws is nowhere as dangerous as walking around unvaccinated or without a mask.
There's no "direct" requirement for vaccines in the constitution.  On the other hand, taxes aren't a mandate or an arbitrary direction.  The constitution allows Congress to impose them. 

The 16th Amendment of the US says the following:  (before 1913, when the US government tried to impose taxes, the Supreme Court threw it out leading to this amendment, a sorrowful day in American history.

The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration. (passed by the States in 1913).

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2138 on: November 05, 2021, 08:26:27 am »

Interestingly it says taxes on income, not wealth which means to me Congress can not have a wealth tax on stock and other asset appreciation that hasn;t yet been sold.  The liberals in Congress were suggesting that in this bill so that people like Elon Musk who's worth billions in Tesla stock, would have to pay taxes on them even though he hasn't sold them. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2139 on: November 05, 2021, 08:34:41 am »

Much more dangerous than possible side effects from the covid and flu vaccinations are many prescriptions for diabetes, heart problems, and numerous unnecessary surgeries and antibiotics.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-diabetes-overtreatment/
 
I take medication to lower my sugar as I have diabetes 2. I have to be careful as sometimes the sugar level gets too low down around 70 and I start shaking.  So I'll eat candy or drink orange juice to add sugar into my body quickly.  I ran into problems last summer in the heat when that and heat stroke combined nearly knocked  me out because I wasn't drinking water and was in the sun shooting my 4x5 camera for two hours.  I couldn't move.  Fortunately, a woman came by walking her dog and had extra water which I drank and poured on my head to also cool off.  When I got back to my car schlepping my camera equipment, I, fortunately, had some Dunkin Donuts "holes" in the car to eat for a quick sugar hit.  So you guys still have to put up with me.  :)
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