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Author Topic: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine  (Read 107031 times)

Two23

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2160 on: November 17, 2021, 10:51:52 pm »

That is such a bizarre meshing of ideas. Why would people who are hesitant about vaccines be comfortable with this anti-viral drug? Why are they worried about the one but less about the other? They are both chemical compounds for which the avg joe has NO IDEA how they accomplish what they do in the body, so why favour one over the other?  Such magical thinking, it boggles the mind.


Against my better judgement I'll weigh in here.  First I'll give some background to explain my POV.  I have a master's degree in medical science, sold pharmaceuticals for >20 years, have worked in hospitals & nursing homes as an OT, and my wife is a supervisor of pharmacy (doctorate in pharmacy) at our state's largest hospital system.  While I am well educated many of my local friends are not and resist vaccination.  This anti-vax thing has become a cult of sorts.  All year long their excuse was "Experimental drug!  Not FDA approved!"  When the Pfizer was FDA approved of course they changed their mantra to something else.  They will willingly take the MAB treatment (monoclonal antibodies) even though it does not have full FDA approval and cost $1,000.  Part of their cult has them demanding to take ivermectin despite it's not being approved, is very experimental, and to date has not been shown to help covid in any empirical study.  These are not rational people and have been swept up in a cult that disdains the vaccines despite they're being safely given to something like 190 million Americans now, and anyone can see that virtually all hospital admissions (and deaths) since June 2021 have been unvaccinated people.  It's the vaccines they have focused on.  They will readily believe anything someone on Youtube or Facebook tells them will cure covid be it a new tablet with exact same FDA conditional approval the vaccines had earlier this year or being told to swing a dead cat over their head three times.  I've come to believe that many of these people were "911 Truthers" in the previous decade.  They are suspicious of anything rational and only pay attention to the wacko fringe and anonymous postings on social media you can never fact check.  They have to have a family member or close friend get sick for weeks or die before reality can get through to them.  Will Rogers once said, "Some people learn by reading books.  Some learn by observing others.  The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."


Kent in SD
« Last Edit: November 17, 2021, 10:55:07 pm by Two23 »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2161 on: November 19, 2021, 09:00:28 am »

There is an existing mandate to report our incomes and pay taxes. IMO, the reluctance to comply with those laws is nowhere as dangerous as walking around unvaccinated or without a mask.

???

Not paying your taxes will result in being arrested and fined and, possibly, jail time regardless of who you are (well maybe not Al Sharpen).   For most, walking around without a vaccine or mask will result in a mild cold. 

Only those over 65 and/or those with pre-existing conditions are really at a high enough risk to worry about getting C-19.  For those under 45, the fatality rate is comparable to the flu. 

This is just as absurd when hear someone talk about Small Pox vaccine mandates, which killed a third of those infected regardless of anything and does not mutate to the point where the vaccine would ever not be effective. 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2162 on: November 19, 2021, 09:35:38 am »

I think that's great.  But will that work against more vaccinations as some people figure there's no point in taking the vaccine? They'll just take their chances and be cured with this new medicine.

The problem is that the powers to be, in a frantic effort to get this under control, scheduled the first and second shot too close to each other.  This resulted in a much lower long term effectiveness then if the two shots were spread out further apart, like every other two shot vaccine we have.  So now, after 6 months of vaccinations, we are seeing the effectiveness of the vaccine drop like a rock when it comes to preventing infection.  (They are still very effective at preventing death though.)  Break through infections are going up and up every day, especially now that the North is entering winter. 

Could this have been prevented if we did spread out the two doses?  Who knows, more then likely, but it's a moot point now for those whom are not vaccinated.  The drop in effectiveness at preventing infection, even if they still prevent serious infections, is all they talk about (or at least those whom I know who are not vaxxed). 

Add to that all research comparing natural immunity to vaccine immunity is showing, just like with bosoms, natural is just oh so much better!  The Israel study found it to be 27 times better and longer lasting too. 

And now, this great new drug that you reference and ...

Good luck convincing those whom are still not vaccinated to get vaccinated.  And mandates will only entrench this even for those on the fence.  If you actually think otherwise, then you clearly dont know anyone who is not vaccinated.  They will spit all this out before you can even get a breath, and, when you protest, you might as well be talking to a wall.  They just dont care, and I dont blame them.  It seems the only people who do care that they are not vaccinated are far left wingers; all the more reason to not get vaxxed if it means pissing them off. 

Furthermore, good luck on getting a large portion of people on getting a booster shot. 

Lockdown and pandemic fatigue is here. 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 10:04:11 am by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2163 on: November 19, 2021, 09:58:46 am »

I dont know about the rest of you, but I am finding that the vaccine mandates are really just a joke when it comes to enforcement, at least in the USA. 

I was in New Orleans in October for about a week for work, and they have a vaccine mandate in place for entering any restaurant.  Not going to lie, even though it was a business trip, I visited quite a few local establishments and imbibed a bit more then I probably should have, but I was still in bed by 10 every night.  ;)   Only half of the places checked my for my vaccination card, and a picture of my card on my phone was more then enough, which they only glanced at it.  Just one establishment insisted on actually taking the time to compare my ID with the picture of my card to ensure the names were the same. 

I have been to NYC several times since their mandate went into effect, and the same thing.  Recently I had a shoot at a major University in the Bronx where we needed a scissor lift.  Before I arrived, I found out the driver of the truck delivering the lift was not vaccinated and he was not even allowed to drive on campus to drop it off.  He had to leave it on the sidewalk and then it had to be driven into campus.  (The battery was dead too, so it was kind of a funny situation daisy chaining a half dozen extension cords to plug it in.) 

Initially I was worried they would be serious enough to want to see my physical vaccination card, which I did not have on me.  Nope, just like everywhere else, security just glanced at my phone just long enough to see a picture of a card and let me in.  That was it. 

That one dive bar in New Orleans has been the only place, whether I was working on a project or just out to eat/shop, where they actually took the time to confirm it was my card with my name on it.  I'm sorry, but the ease at getting around this is a joke.  Likewise, I highly doubt most employers, even those whom enacted a mandate themselves, are going to any further lengths to verify the authenticity of vaccination of their employees. 

Now I will be traveling to the UAE for a month on business soon, so I am expecting that their verification process will be a little more intense but we will see. 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 10:06:49 am by JoeKitchen »
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2164 on: November 19, 2021, 01:54:38 pm »

It seems the only people who do care that they are not vaccinated are far left wingers; all the more reason to not get vaxxed if it means pissing them off. 

All the more reason why no one should look to you for sensible health advice.
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2165 on: November 19, 2021, 02:07:50 pm »

The problem is that the powers to [that] be, in a frantic effort to get this under control, scheduled the first and second shot too close to each other.  This resulted in a much lower long term effectiveness then [than] if the two shots were spread out further apart, like every other two shot vaccine we have.

Which "powers that be" do you believe determined the most effective interval between vaccine doses? How do you believe they arrived at those intervals? What science based knowledge or research do you have regarding optimum vaccine dosage intervals for mRNA vaccines? Why do you choose not to provide any evidence for your assertions?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 03:46:00 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2166 on: November 19, 2021, 03:39:22 pm »

Add to that all research comparing natural immunity to vaccine immunity is showing... natural is just oh so much better!

This statement is simply false. The non-scientific term for this is jumping to conclusions.

From a U.K. Study...

"Effectiveness of two doses remains at least as great as protection afforded by prior natural infection."

https://www.medrxiv.org/Impact of Delta on viral burden and vaccine effectiveness against new SARS-CoV-2 infections in the UK

From the University of Nebraska Medical Center...

If you've had COVID-19 before, does your natural immunity work better than a vaccine?
 
The data is clear: Natural immunity is not better. The COVID-19 vaccines create more effective and longer-lasting immunity than natural immunity from infection.

• More than a third of COVID-19 infections result in zero protective antibodies
• Natural immunity fades faster than vaccine immunity
• Natural immunity alone is less than half as effective than natural immunity plus vaccination

The takeaway: Get vaccinated, even if you've had COVID-19. Vaccine immunity is stronger than natural immunity.

"Natural immunity can be spotty. Some people can react vigorously and get a great antibody response. Other people don't get such a great response," says infectious diseases expert Mark Rupp, MD. "Clearly, vaccine-induced immunity is more standardized and can be longer-lasting."

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination

The article linked above, from the University of Nebraska Medical Center, has much more information and includes links to additional information and studies that they cite within the article. There are many more studies and articles than the two that I've cited.

Lockdown and pandemic fatigue is here.

Online BS and ill-informed commentary fatigue is here.
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Two23

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2167 on: November 19, 2021, 07:18:14 pm »

It seems the only people who do care that they are not vaccinated are far left wingers; all the more reason to not get vaxxed if it means pissing them off. 



That's just foolish.  I don't care what politicians say about it one way or another.  My degree and background is healthcare so I look at this solely as a medical issue.  Are the vaccines safe?  With closing in on 200M Americans now vaccinated, yes absolutely.  Do the vaccinations work?  Yes, and very well.  Chart below was released from my former employer and my wife's (clinical pharmacist) employer of 30 years.  As I said, it's foolish to take a chance with such a destructive disease because of something as meaningless as politics.





Kent in SD

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Manoli

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2168 on: November 19, 2021, 07:23:16 pm »

They just dont care, and I dont blame them.  It seems the only people who do care that they are not vaccinated are far left wingers; all the more reason to not get vaxxed if it means pissing them off. 

Joe,
tell me it’s not you starring in that ‘Borat Subsequent Movie’ film.
You know, the part where he asks

‘What is more dangerous ? This virus or the Democrats ?
and you and your buddies answer
‘Democrats’

scrub to 1:55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1F0CgjMbQ0
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TechTalk

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2169 on: November 19, 2021, 07:46:48 pm »

For most, walking around without a vaccine or mask will result in a mild cold. 

Some statements are too asinine to merit a response.

For those under 45, the fatality rate is comparable to the flu

    Years               Age Group    All Deaths Involving COVID-19    All Deaths Involving Influenza

2020/2021          0-17 Years                      605                                           189
2020/2021        18-29 Years                   4,460                                           149
2020/2021        30-39 Years                 13,196                                           325
2020/2021        40-49 Years                 32,230                                           511
2020/2021        50-64 Years               139,761                                         2,246
2020/2021        65-74 Years               173,365                                         2,051
2020/2021        75-84 Years               198,318                                         2,047
2020/2021       85 and Over                203,385                                        1,912

2020/2021      Total All Ages               765,320                                         9,430

Data from CDC as of 11/17/2021

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm
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Chris Kern

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2170 on: November 19, 2021, 08:20:54 pm »

. . . it's foolish to take a chance with such a destructive disease because of something as meaningless as politics.

It's difficult to argue with this from a rational perspective, but the opposition to vaccine requirements, mask mandates, and other commonsense precautions—as well as the often-stated insistence that contracting this new coronavirus should not be a matter of concern because most infected individuals survive an infection—is a deeply emotional issue for angry people who feel impelled to express their broader resentment against the changes that are taking place in their society because of a belief that they are being pushed around by "the elites."

Two23

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2171 on: November 19, 2021, 08:49:42 pm »

It's difficult to argue with this from a rational perspective, but the opposition to vaccine requirements, mask mandates, and other commonsense precautions—as well as the often-stated insistence that contracting this new coronavirus should not be a matter of concern because most infected individuals survive an infection—is a deeply emotional issue for angry people who feel impelled to express their broader resentment against the changes that are taking place in their society because of a belief that they are being pushed around by "the elites."


"The Government" mandates we wear seat belts while driving as well.  I'm very much a Midwestern guy, very Libertarian, and skeptical (if not cynical) about government.  As an educated man I try to look at things objectively and let  common sense prevail though.  I would wear a seat no matter what"The Government" told me to do.  Same for the vaccine.  Same for not driving 90 mph on a snow covered highway.  As for most people survive covid, yes of course.  They don't seem a bit concerned about harming other, more vulnerable people such as my 97 yr. old WW2 vet dad.  For these selfish people it's all about me-me-me. 


Kent in SD
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chez

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2172 on: November 19, 2021, 08:54:42 pm »

???

Not paying your taxes will result in being arrested and fined and, possibly, jail time regardless of who you are (well maybe not Al Sharpen).   For most, walking around without a vaccine or mask will result in a mild cold. 

Only those over 65 and/or those with pre-existing conditions are really at a high enough risk to worry about getting C-19.  For those under 45, the fatality rate is comparable to the flu. 

This is just as absurd when hear someone talk about Small Pox vaccine mandates, which killed a third of those infected regardless of anything and does not mutate to the point where the vaccine would ever not be effective.

What hole do you dig your information from…it’s all junk.
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chez

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2173 on: November 19, 2021, 09:12:54 pm »

Some statements are too asinine to merit a response.

    Years               Age Group    All Deaths Involving COVID-19    All Deaths Involving Influenza

2020/2021          0-17 Years                      605                                           189
2020/2021        18-29 Years                   4,460                                           149
2020/2021        30-39 Years                 13,196                                           325
2020/2021        40-49 Years                 32,230                                           511
2020/2021        50-64 Years               139,761                                         2,246
2020/2021        65-74 Years               173,365                                         2,051
2020/2021        75-84 Years               198,318                                         2,047
2020/2021       85 and Over                203,385                                        1,912

2020/2021      Total All Ages               765,320                                         9,430

Data from CDC as of 11/17/2021

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm

Let's also not forget those Covid deaths happened even when masking rules and vaccination shots were in place. Does anyone doubt it for one minute that the Covid deaths would be at least doubled if we did nothing?
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Two23

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2174 on: November 19, 2021, 10:46:39 pm »

Let's also not forget those Covid deaths happened even when masking rules and vaccination shots were in place. Does anyone doubt it for one minute that the Covid deaths would be at least doubled if we did nothing?


It would likely be much more than doubled.   According to my wife, a clinical pharmacist at a major hospital system, most all of the vaccinated people who are in serious condition in her hospital are on immuno-suppressing drugs (transplant patients, people with auto-immune diseases) or have an active disease that suppresses the immune system (leukemia, HIV, etc.)  It's more than people just dying though.  My nephrologist told me many of the younger covid patients are showing up with kidney damage that doesn't cause a problem right now but will as time goes on.  She said the main damage is being done to lungs and hearts.  Many will be needing transplants in the future that otherwise would not have.  I truly don't understand why someone would take chances on this disease for something as meaningless as politics.  Life is much more valuable than that.


Kent in SD
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2175 on: November 20, 2021, 06:30:06 am »

The problem is that the powers to be, in a frantic effort to get this under control, scheduled the first and second shot too close to each other.  This resulted in a much lower long term effectiveness then if the two shots were spread out further apart, like every other two shot vaccine we have.  So now, after 6 months of vaccinations, we are seeing the effectiveness of the vaccine drop like a rock when it comes to preventing infection.  (They are still very effective at preventing death though.)  Break through infections are going up and up every day, especially now that the North is entering winter. 

Could this have been prevented if we did spread out the two doses?  Who knows, more then likely, but it's a moot point now for those whom are not vaccinated.  The drop in effectiveness at preventing infection, even if they still prevent serious infections, is all they talk about (or at least those whom I know who are not vaxxed). 

Add to that all research comparing natural immunity to vaccine immunity is showing, just like with bosoms, natural is just oh so much better!  The Israel study found it to be 27 times better and longer lasting too. 

And now, this great new drug that you reference and ...

Good luck convincing those whom are still not vaccinated to get vaccinated.  And mandates will only entrench this even for those on the fence.  If you actually think otherwise, then you clearly dont know anyone who is not vaccinated.  They will spit all this out before you can even get a breath, and, when you protest, you might as well be talking to a wall.  They just dont care, and I dont blame them.  It seems the only people who do care that they are not vaccinated are far left wingers; all the more reason to not get vaxxed if it means pissing them off. 

Furthermore, good luck on getting a large portion of people on getting a booster shot. 

Lockdown and pandemic fatigue is here. 
I just got my Moderna booster shot. I'm 76. My wife who's 69 doesn't want to get the booster because she had a fairly heavy reaction to her second shot. 

Despite all the hoopla on both sides of the issue, my personal feeling is you are better off getting at least the original vaccinations so if you actually do get sick for whatever reason the effects will not be as damaging or deadly. 

I respect people's right to decide, but I still think it's a good idea if they got vaccinated.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 06:37:28 am by Alan Klein »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2176 on: November 20, 2021, 07:02:54 am »

Quote from: TechTalk on November 19, 2021, 07:46:48 pm
Quote
Some statements are too asinine to merit a response.

    Years               Age Group    All Deaths Involving COVID-19    All Deaths Involving Influenza

2020/2021          0-17 Years                      605                                           189
2020/2021        18-29 Years                   4,460                                           149
2020/2021        30-39 Years                 13,196                                           325
2020/2021        40-49 Years                 32,230                                           511
2020/2021        50-64 Years               139,761                                         2,246
2020/2021        65-74 Years               173,365                                         2,051
2020/2021        75-84 Years               198,318                                         2,047
2020/2021       85 and Over                203,385                                        1,912

2020/2021      Total All Ages               765,320                                         9,430

Data from CDC as of 11/17/2021

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm

Let's also not forget those Covid deaths happened even when masking rules and vaccination shots were in place. Does anyone doubt it for one minute that the Covid deaths would be at least doubled if we did nothing?
The problem with your chart is it gives younger people under let's say 50 the arguments against taking vaccinations for their age group.  The percentages are minuscule.

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2177 on: November 20, 2021, 07:09:06 am »

It's difficult to argue with this from a rational perspective, but the opposition to vaccine requirements, mask mandates, and other commonsense precautions—as well as the often-stated insistence that contracting this new coronavirus should not be a matter of concern because most infected individuals survive an infection—is a deeply emotional issue for angry people who feel impelled to express their broader resentment against the changes that are taking place in their society because of a belief that they are being pushed around by "the elites."
The problem as I've been saying  since early 2020, is that the whole Covid disease has been politicized from the beginning.  Unfortunately, the politicization started because of Trump, the democrats, and the fact that 2020 was a presidential election year.  Everything went downhill from there.

Alan Klein

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2178 on: November 20, 2021, 07:26:15 am »


"The Government" mandates we wear seat belts while driving as well.  I'm very much a Midwestern guy, very Libertarian, and skeptical (if not cynical) about government.  As an educated man I try to look at things objectively and let  common sense prevail though.  I would wear a seat no matter what"The Government" told me to do.  Same for the vaccine.  Same for not driving 90 mph on a snow covered highway.  As for most people survive covid, yes of course.  They don't seem a bit concerned about harming other, more vulnerable people such as my 97 yr. old WW2 vet dad.  For these selfish people it's all about me-me-me


Kent in SD
Me-me-me depends on whose ox is getting gored.  Many libertarians argue to legalize drugs, especially marijuana.  Well, that adds to carnage on the road that maims and kills innocent people.  People are driving high without their wits about them.  When mountain climbers, skiers, scuba divers, etc demand access and accommodations to carry out their sports, they put rescuers in danger when they get into trouble.

Even in more ordinary activities, when I drive on the weekends to take pictures of the scenery, I put myself and my family and other people who I might crash into in danger just so I can get a photo of a tree to impress others what a great photographer I am.  Sounds pretty me-me-me to me. 

There are many things we do that can hurt others.  We agree or not to allow these things as part of normal society.  But we don't castigate those whose independence and activities we might not like.  We try to get along and take our chances like everyone else.

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Re: Promising New Coronavirus Vaccine
« Reply #2179 on: November 20, 2021, 09:36:37 am »

...  Lockdown and pandemic fatigue is here.

It has been here a while, but as often happens in these matters, emotions are irrelevant. The virus doesn't give a damn if people are sick of taking special measures. I bet cancer patients get sick of their routines too.

The Worldometer USA numbers are interesting. Although daily deaths are trending down, the 7-day moving average is still at about 1000. That's potentially 365,000 per year. That ain't no normal flu, I'd say. The pandemic certainly isn't over yet. No way can 1000 deaths per day be passed off as normal background.

The 7-day moving avg of new infections turned upward and has been increasing for about 3 weeks now. I bet people will get sick of that too. But so far, after about 3 weeks, daily deaths have not also started increasing. Let's hope that's an indication of reduced mortality and that vaccinations may be having an effect. Or it could be that those numbers will start trending up soon as well. It will be interesting to watch those two stats in the next few weeks.
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Robert
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