Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Ray]

In the Spanish news this evening, it seems that the Donald is now proposing that Gaza be turned into a new Israeli Riviera, the Palestinians collectively thrown out of their homes (again, just as in the earlier creation of the state of Israel) and be taken in by the countries that oppose this new American/Israeli grand plan. Yes, if your President says so, then the country is seen to have said so: you can’t escape the association with the guys you elect. What have you done? Personally, I believe he appears more insane every time he appears on the news. Maybe that’s how it will end: the men in the white coats will make a pre-dawn appearance, and he will be taken away somewhere for long, long clinical observation.

Rob,
I think Trump's plan is the wisest, most practical, and most compassionate.
Most Palestinians are Sunni Muslims. Most Muslims in Egypt, Jordan and Saudia Arabia are also Sunni, so the Pestinians should feel at home in neighbouring countries with the same religion.

The Palestinians in Gaza, under the leadership of Hamas, have always wanted the Jews to be eliminated. After the terrible destruction of Gaza, in this latest conflict, there will be many Palestinian children and young adults who will remember forever their pain and grief at the loss of their parents and siblings. The hatred of the Jews will likely be even greater, and after the Gaza Strip has been rebuilt, it's quite likely that there will be another conflict, and the new buildings and lives destroyed yet again. That would be total madness.

The following article provides an overview of the extent of the destruction during this current conflict.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-01-17/gaza-destruction-satellite-images-whats-left-war-israel-hamas/104828320

Here are some relevant quotes:

"About 92 per cent of housing units are destroyed, 68 per cent of the road network is destroyed or damaged, 88 per cent of school buildings need rebuilding or major repairs, and there are "zero" fuel reserves to operate generators at hospitals."

"The UN estimates Gaza was littered with more than 50 million tons of rubble as a result of the war. With over 100 trucks working full-time, it would take more than 15 years to clear the rubble away."

"More than half of Gaza's agricultural land, crucial for feeding the population, has been degraded by conflict, according to the United Nations analysis of satellite images."

Unfortunately, a major obstacle to Trump's solution, is highlighted in the following quote from the article.

"People know that there is nothing left for them, no land, no money, no homes, nothing is left for them. But they very much want to go back to where they used to live, even if they lived under the sky, even without tents."

I've heard other comments from Palestinians stating they would rather die than be prevented from returning to their property. That is just crazy. We have to find a permanent solution to this mind-boggling, crazy conflict between the Palestinians and Jews that has been going on for so many decades.

[Rob C]

Be careful not to conflate Jew and Israel; not always the same faith beliefs nor political ones, either.

That said, I can’t imagine that clearing away the rubble would be any the less Sisyphean a task if it were on the heads of the Palestinians or the Israelis, though in the latter case, no doubt the US would find itself footing the bill, disguised as a lucrative adventure in foreign trade. Perhaps the Donald sees it as his version of Putin’s involvement in Syria: a Mediterranean foothold.

If I may say so, claiming that the surrounding Sunni sympathies should make the Palestinians “feel at home” is more than a little condescending, if not totally short-sighted. Because Europe used to be mainly Christian does not mean that the inhabitants of the various loser nations of past European wars felt “at home” having to flee and lose everything they held dear. Even today, Russian destruction in Ukraine and the subsequent flood of refugees into Poland etc., Russia being also nominally a Christian nation, hasn’t made the refugees feel any the happier about it.

[Rob C]

Regarding the amazing Mr Musk: in today’s local Spanish newspaper:

“The sales of Tesla fall 60% in Germany following the interferences of Musk.

The sale of electrical vehicles of the American manufacturer Tesla, property of Elon Musk, fell almost 60% in January in Germany, compared with the previous January, after the multi-millionaire American who has built a factory near Berlin, involved himself in the election campaign by openly supporting the ultra right. Tesla sold 1277 cars last January, 59.5% less than in 2024, about 0.6% of all brands sold in Germany in January.”

The bite of a flea - or harbinger of comeuppances yet to follow? Maybe just realisation that electricity ain’t the solution to the many, many car problems? With the ever-growing problems associated with parking, perhaps car sale will find a natural peak, to be followed by a slow decline as people alter their habits, and new transport systems are introduced.

[digitaldog]

I think Trump's plan is the wisest, most practical, and most compassionate.

Or:

President Donald Trump’s calls for the United States to “take over” and “develop” the Gaza Strip have handed jihadist terrorist groups a rallying cry to recruit and inspire attacks against Americans at home and abroad, security experts and former intelligence officials say.

Trump’s comments this week, proposing that the United States would control the Palestinian enclave while its residents would be forced to relocate abroad, have caused shock and outrage around the world — and terrorists will pounce on that anger to attract more support and organize attacks, experts said.

“I think every CIA station chief in the Middle East woke up this morning with a migraine headache, because there’s a potential for a generational counterterrorism nightmare here,” Marc Polymeropoulos, a former CIA officer who worked in the region, said Wednesday in an interview on MSNBC's "Morning Joe."

Polymeropoulos highlighted the language Trump has used in recent days — that the United States would "take over" and "own" Gaza.

“These are triggering mechanisms for Islamic extremist groups,” he said, adding, “This kind of language only is going to galvanize groups that want to kill Americans."

[Rob C]

Like I wrote earlier: the man appears more crazed at every tv appearance.

The only rational thought that he seems to have put into acton is ending this madness about mixed-up genders, and kicking non-women out of women’s sport. I can see how that sort of woke nonsense might have cost the Democrats a lot of votes. Much the same happened in Scotland, where after years of the Scottish Nationalists using the Greens to bolster them up, the Scottish tribes cried enough! and delivered the Nationalists their greatest electoral defeat ever. Of course, the latter’s own looseness with voters’ money also led to meltdown, and a massive resurgence in Labour political power. The greatest problem with the Greens, though, and, by extension and political marriage, their support, appears to have been that they completely forgot about matters green, planetary survival etc., and turned their party into a mouthpiece for woke concerns and every form of sexual diversion from what nature has so clearly designed to be the shining path. It got so bad at one time, that no politician would publicly declare his definition of what it is to be a woman. It would be funny if it didn’t signal just how dangerous organised groups can become. Take heed, America, of your book burners: think of Europe just before WW2, and where that kind of political terrorism led.

[Robert Roaldi]

Could be worse.  We could have a state run health care system who saves money by offering patients assisted suicide procedures as an option for care. 

Assisted [suicide] now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

I don't know if you're kidding or not but that is a risible representation of what goes on in Canada.

You should be aware of a multi-decade propaganda campaign by private insurers that deliberately misrepresents how universal health care works. Don't fall for it.

[Robert Roaldi]

Rob,
I think Trump's plan is the wisest, most practical, and most compassionate.
Most Palestinians are Sunni Muslims. Most Muslims in Egypt, Jordan and Saudia Arabia are also Sunni, so the Pestinians should feel at home in neighbouring countries with the same religion.

The Palestinians in Gaza, under the leadership of Hamas, have always wanted the Jews to be eliminated. After the terrible destruction of Gaza, in this latest conflict, there will be many Palestinian children and young adults who will remember forever their pain and grief at the loss of their parents and siblings. The hatred of the Jews will likely be even greater, and after the Gaza Strip has been rebuilt, it's quite likely that there will be another conflict, and the new buildings and lives destroyed yet again. That would be total madness.

The following article provides an overview of the extent of the destruction during this current conflict.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-01-17/gaza-destruction-satellite-images-whats-left-war-israel-hamas/104828320

Here are some relevant quotes:

"About 92 per cent of housing units are destroyed, 68 per cent of the road network is destroyed or damaged, 88 per cent of school buildings need rebuilding or major repairs, and there are "zero" fuel reserves to operate generators at hospitals."

"The UN estimates Gaza was littered with more than 50 million tons of rubble as a result of the war. With over 100 trucks working full-time, it would take more than 15 years to clear the rubble away."

"More than half of Gaza's agricultural land, crucial for feeding the population, has been degraded by conflict, according to the United Nations analysis of satellite images."

Unfortunately, a major obstacle to Trump's solution, is highlighted in the following quote from the article.

"People know that there is nothing left for them, no land, no money, no homes, nothing is left for them. But they very much want to go back to where they used to live, even if they lived under the sky, even without tents."

I've heard other comments from Palestinians stating they would rather die than be prevented from returning to their property. That is just crazy. We have to find a permanent solution to this mind-boggling, crazy conflict between the Palestinians and Jews that has been going on for so many decades.

You seem to be lumping Palestinian desires with those of Hamas. It's more nuanced than that. Read more broadly.

Your statement "Most Palestinians are Sunni Muslims. Most Muslims in Egypt, Jordan and Saudia Arabia are also Sunni, so the Palestinians should feel at home in neighbouring countries with the same religion." is highly condescending. None of the people involved asked for our or Trump's advice about how to lead their lives or manage their lands. Trump is not the CEO of the world. Remember, he actually ran a casino into the ground so I'd be wary of any of his long-term strategies. (Or even short-term ones.) Putting up beach resorts and casinos would be good for the real estate consortia who built it, no one else.

[Ray]

You seem to be lumping Palestinian desires with those of Hamas. It's more nuanced than that. Read more broadly.

Your statement "Most Palestinians are Sunni Muslims. Most Muslims in Egypt, Jordan and Saudia Arabia are also Sunni, so the Palestinians should feel at home in neighbouring countries with the same religion." is highly condescending. None of the people involved asked for our or Trump's advice about how to lead their lives or manage their lands. Trump is not the CEO of the world. Remember, he actually ran a casino into the ground so I'd be wary of any of his long-term strategies. (Or even short-term ones.) Putting up beach resorts and casinos would be good for the real estate consortia who built it, no one else.

So what's your solution? A two-state solution? Don't you understand that the current conflict between Israel and Gaza has generated a massive amount of hatred of the Jews amongst the surviving Palestinian population? This hatred will most likely continue in the hearts and minds of the children and young adults who survived the carnage, resulting in future conflicts as they grow up and develop a purpose in life to take revenge against the Israelis.

One solution (totally impractical, of course) would be to convert all the Palestinians to Christianity, and teach them every day to "Love thine enemy". 

You might be interested in the following articles that provide a 'broad' context.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/05/israel-palestine-two-state-solution-partition-carnage-ethnic-cleansing/

"Since the Israel-Hamas war erupted in Gaza, leaders of the great and middle powers not directly involved in the armed conflict have consistently stated that the only way out is to create two states—one for the Israelis and another for the Palestinians.

...the relentless appeal of the two-state solution is alarming—for two reasons: First, because the two-state hypothesis, triumphantly launched by the United States more than three decades ago, has long been considered dead and buried, and exhuming its corpse now highlights the inability of world leaders to propose—and impose—a more credible response. Second, and far more worryingly, the two-state solution, were it ever to be imposed, would certainly result in a new Nakba, or “catastrophe,” that would make the 1948 Nakba and the one occurring today appear minor in comparison."

https://www.euronews.com/2023/10/15/two-state-solution-losing-grounds-in-israel-and-palestine-even-before-terror-attacks-surve

"Fewer people in both Israel and Palestine believed the two states could co-exist peacefully - even before the outbreak of war with Hamas.
While there has been a slight increase in support for a two-state solution, a majority of Palestinians still believe it is not the way forward.
Some 67% of Palestinians oppose the two-state solution, citing settlement expansion as a key reason for their scepticism."

https://www.hoover.org/research/why-there-no-palestinian-state

"As it stands, the Palestinians are unable to stand up a state required for peace with Israel. No Arab country wants to take them or rule their territories. After October 7, Israel will never repeat its 2005 unilateral withdrawal experiment that, instead of leading to a Palestinian state, turned Gaza into an enemy military camp.

For Israel and the Palestinians, the only possible solution in the foreseeable future is more of the same: A makeshift arrangement of Palestinian self-governance meshed with Israeli policing and periodic flareups.
Unless America is willing to go back to state-building and spreading democracy, it will have to wait until Palestinians figure out how to build a state that Israel can make peace with. Israel cannot build a Palestinian state for them. Only Palestinians can, but first, they must listen and learn how."

[Robert Roaldi]

The takeover of the USA by Elon Musk continues. He wants to bring back that ousted minion who bragged that he was racist "before it was cool" to be. The kid's a trendsetter, no doubt about it. Protests are amassing around the country. Trump and Musk are tampering with programs that are under Congress's domain, but Congress doesn't seem to mind. It will be interesting to see what line he needs to cross before they act. So far, they seem to be captured. Those must be pretty cushy and/or ego-blowing jobs for them to sink this low to keep them. Who knows, some of them might even be true believers. Although it's not very clear to me what Trump believes in, exactly.

Trump has been vociferous about the media lately, complaining about PBS because they reported some unflattering news and shouting that he wants to shut down 60 Minutes, as if it's the President's prerogative to shut down media. It might turn out that he can. SCOTUS said he's immune, and if Congress won't stop him on any front, then who will prevent him from doing whatever he wants. He must envy the way Putin has members of the press assassinated or imprisoned. I predict an executive order to shut down a media outlet soon to test the waters, see if anyone does anything about it.

I'm pessimistic. As I keep pointing out to friends of mine, Lauren Bobert and Marjorie Taylor Greene were RE-elected last time out. Their voters thought they had done a good job.

The funniest thing this week was Trump's announcement of a White House office of Faith. I think he should introduce a "Geezus meme coin". If you buy enough of them, you get to go to heaven, no questions asked. Or maybe he could call it an "indulgence coin", a nod to religious history. Martin Luther must be spinning.

Musk is tossing a lot of people into the street with no notice and not much oversight. Not much justification either, so far as I can tell. Sooner or later, he's going to piss off some Luigi, so I hope his bodyguards are as loyal as he hopes.

It has not been made clear what the purpose of all this turmoil is. What will it accomplish. Do they simply want to impoverish everyone so that military service seems like a good option. There was an episode of NPR's Fresh Air recently about the recruitment difficulties that the military is currently experiencing. To me, this is no surprise. Fighting for your country for patriotic reasons is one thing, but dying to make Exxon, Musk and Trump richer is not so noble a motivation. Especially when Trump calls veterans suckers.

It will be interesting to see if Musk shuts down the government departments that oversee contracts with his enterprises.

This is all bad. If Trump announced tomorrow morning that he was going to send military aid to Putin, would anyone be surprised?

I wonder when to expect a Kent state moment.

[Robert Roaldi]

So what's your solution? .
.
.

Why would you expect me to have a solution. All I'm saying is that it's foolish to expect any solution from outside to have any chance of succeeding if it fails to take into account the agenda of the people living there. Isn't that obvious? The Palestinians don't care if you are tired of the wars there. Suggesting to move them into neighbouring countries where they also don't belong doesn't seem to me like that would work.

[Robert Roaldi]

.
.
.
The only rational thought that he seems to have put into acton is ending this madness about mixed-up genders, and kicking non-women out of women’s sport. I can see how that sort of woke nonsense might have cost the Democrats a lot of votes. .
.
.

The issue of trans people competing in women's sport categories seems easy to handle. This is not my argument, I first heard it from Sam Harris. If we don't allow performance enhancing drugs because we see their use as unfair, then allowing former males to compete against females, especially when the transition occurs after puberty, must be seen as unfair as well. This may result in a situation where trans people are not allowed to compete in sanctioned women's sports and this may be a hardship in individual cases because of their love of that activity. It is unfortunate for them.

As for the government deciding that there are only 2 genders, I really don't see why the f**king government should have any say in people's private lives. There have always been crossover cases, mixed chromosomes (XXY, YYX), real psychological complexities about genders, there is nothing new nor especially earth shaking about any of this. This has been known and documented for centuries. These are private matters, there should be no state involvement.

The political motivation for addressing this is just so obviously distraction. We should be embarrassed that politicians waste our time with this.

[degrub]

Why would you expect me to have a solution. All I'm saying is that it's foolish to expect any solution from outside to have any chance of succeeding if it fails to take into account the agenda of the people living there. Isn't that obvious? The Palestinians don't care if you are tired of the wars there. Suggesting to move them into neighbouring countries where they also don't belong doesn't seem to me like that would work.

This situation has been going on since the first petty kingdoms were established in the area. The only difference is the lack of slaughter.

[Rob C]

Well, if a two-state is not to be on the agenda, that the deportation of all Palestinians is the answer, then I have a simple, mirror solution: deport all Israelis to the USA instead.

By the same logic as applied to the Palestinian deportation solution, an Israeli deportation solution would be far more simple: the USA is already beholden to backing Israel, come what may. Just ask yourself why that might be the case.

An assured welcome would automatically await the new arrivals: jobs in art, music, fashion, banking, entertainment, literature, advertising, commerce, education, medicine, politics etc. would be provided without any problem at all. Life would be far more acceptable for them in the USA: instead of moving Palestinians as unwelcome guests to neighbouring lands simply because of some religious and linguistic commonality, a modern Israeli “exodus” would be quite different: different landscape, different continent. How much better and freeing of ancient spiritual chains could anything be? If, as the US already imagines, all the world wants to live there (or so I’m advised) they would be happy. I must be odd: I would rather live in Europe. Perhaps Palestinians are equally odd, and want to live in Palestine.

[degrub]

If Churchill had not capitulated to the Zionist movement, that might well have happened over time.

[Rob C]

It’s kind of interesting that the leaders of both the US and Israel face criminal charges that are evaded simply by dint of them holding high political office. A permanent loss of office could prove quite embarrassing, in the longer term… it makes me laugh somewhat ruefully when I consider western holier-than-thou attitudes towards other nations, the so-called banana republics.

[kers]

Why would you expect me to have a solution. All I'm saying is that it's foolish to expect any solution from outside to have any chance of succeeding if it fails to take into account the agenda of the people living there. Isn't that obvious? The Palestinians don't care if you are tired of the wars there. Suggesting to move them into neighbouring countries where they also don't belong doesn't seem to me like that would work.

If we move all the Isrealis to the US and give the Palestianians back their original land from before 1948 , that also would be a solution. ( And give the US back to the native Indian population for yes also mr Trump forfathers were immigrants)

[Ray]

By the same logic as applied to the Palestinian deportation solution, an Israeli deportation solution would be far more simple: the USA is already beholden to backing Israel, come what may. Just ask yourself why that might be the case.

Good point! However, I don't think it would be far more simple. The Palestinian are basically Arabs, and relocating them just 50 to 100km away from Gaza and the West Bank, to an area which is part of their ancestral history, and an area where the inhabitants have the same religion, should be far more simple than relocating the Jews to a region which is thousands of kilometres away and which has little connection to their ancestral history.

It seems to me, there are three possible scenarios ahead, only two of which provide a solution.

1. Relocate Palestinians to neighbouring countries with the same religion and connected history, allowing the Jews to remain in an area where their history goes back much further than the Palestinians.

2. Relocate the Jews to an area that has no connection with their ancestral history.

3. Let the carnage and conflicts continue as they have for millenia.

[kers]

1. Relocate Palestinians to neighbouring countries with the same religion and connected history, allowing the Jews to remain in an area where their history goes back much further than the Palestinians.
Using this logic i hope the Mongols will not claim their old empire, or Egypt, or Italy... or the native indians in the US.
Still this wrong logic is used at the moment by China claiming Taiwan; Russia - claiming the Ukraine and Israel claming the land of the Palestinians , to call a few.
Now Trump feels he also should have something to equal ... Greenland?


3. Let the carnage and conflicts continue as they have for millenia.
yes, with all the technology we have - we still cannot find ways to solve things peacefully... that would be real progress.
We need more women at the top and genuine democracies were the power is divided among many.

[Robert Roaldi]

Stories are emerging about Musk's six. A couple of them have been linked to hacker groups and at least one had been on a security watch (with Homeland Security?, I don't know who was watching). Even though they did not have the proper clearance they got their hands on private data. I'd be checking that data, if it were me. Be ironic if they sold it to TikTok.

I heard a funny story, an urban legend I'm sure, about these guys, that when they got to the Treasury they discovered a lot of COBOL code and didn't know what it was. Reminds me of the jokes people make about how a manual transmission is the best car theft prevention because the young guys they hire to steal cars don't know how to drive stick.

Trump is still talking about tariffs, I see. I wonder why he wants to ruin the economy. Is there some benefit to him if he impoverishes everyone? If he played the fiddle the image would be complete.

[Robert Roaldi]

I saw online somewhere that Governor De Santis of Florida has a proposal in his latest budget to introduce a summertime tax holiday on gun sales. I guess the arms industry needs a boost.

Several years ago on these pages, I remember a US contributor saying that one of the reasons for the US 2nd Amendment was so the citizenry can protect itself from an overreaching government. I wonder if people still feel the same about that.