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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 267276 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11260 on: September 08, 2021, 05:15:52 pm »

Indeed, the government just screws the economy up. Plenty of such examples.
Look at GM. In 2009, the government saved them from a bankruptcy and now the company is ready to go up belly up again. Having a CEO like Mary Barra doesn't help either. In her desperation she poured borrowed money into questionable enterprises like Nikola Motor Company and Lordstown Motors and their own Bolt EV's are a disaster. And just in 2021, they wasted $2.95 billions an advertising. Tesla spent zero dollars on advertising and they can't make enough cars to satisfy their orders.


The Obama-run Democrat government saved GM to save the GM labor union pensioner retirement fund because they supported the Democratic party. It was payback time for supporting Obama.  Unfortunately for Kodak, they didn't have the same clout.  So Kodak had to give most of their company to the British retirement folks who now own Kodak Alaris and now supply Tmax 100 film to me at higher prices than the cost to charge a Tesla.  :)  I'm waiting for a government subsidy check for my film purchases.  Do you think I'll have to wait long? 

Regarding Tesla, they've benefitted from government support in the billions with direct payments and from indirect subsidies to rich people buying $100K Teslas:

Elon Musk’s Big Government Grift
The Tesla mogul says he wants to be left alone. But he’s been living off the taxpayer’s dime for years.
A 2015 Los Angeles Times investigation estimated that Tesla, SolarCity, and SpaceX had together benefited from “$4.9 billion in government support.” That included, for example, a $465 million low-interest loan from the Department of Energy in 2010 that helped Tesla ride out the effects of the Great Recession
.
https://newrepublic.com/article/160500/elon-musks-big-government-grift

https://www.bankers-anonymous.com/blog/haters-guide-to-tesla/


Of course, other auto companies have received even more subsidies, more government bailouts and misallocation of resources wasting taxpayer money. Heck.  It's only about three weeks of printing at the Fed. No big deal.

Ford borrowed $5.937 billion under the ATVM Loan Program. Ford still hasn’t paid that back.
As of today, Ford has had a total of at least $33,489,841,570 ($33.49 billion) in subsidies awarded.
Nissan borrowed $1.448 billion under the ATVM Loan Program and still hasn’t paid us back.
Nissan’s total subsidy value is $1,955,199,450 ($1.96 billion).
Fisker Automotive borrowed $529 million under the ATVM Loan Program and went bankrupt. We won’t get that money back.
GM and Chrysler both went into bankruptcy and had to be rescued under a separate program.
GM’s total subsidy value is $50,346,920,000 ($50.35 billion).
Fiat-Chrysler’s total subsidy value is $17,599,200,000 ($17.6 billion).

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/08/03/tesla-subsidies-how-much/

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11261 on: September 08, 2021, 07:58:11 pm »

Look at GM. In 2009, the government saved them from a bankruptcy...

in the middle of a global financial crisis. In addition to calculating the amount of money invested by the government in preventing the collapse of GM and the amount recovered from GM since that time, many other calculations and questions are worthy of consideration. Have you considered what effects the financial collapse of GM would have had across the broader economy at that time? The impact most certainly would have been widespread; affecting not only GM and its employees, as well as their entire supply chain and dealer base; but also the economy more generally and consumer confidence at a critical time.

There are a vast slew of questions, considerations, and calculations to consider when standing on the brink of a global systemic financial meltdown with all of the complex interconnections at risk and at play. You know, the kind of current and future implications of decision making with which armchair critics don't have to concern themselves. This is especially true for those with a simplistic ideological view of how a globally interconnected economic system actually functions.

A detailed accounting of the TARP and the Fannie and Freddie bailouts can be found here.

...and now the company is ready to go up belly up again.

Really? Where do you get your data on corporate financials?

If GM "is ready to go up belly up again", they're going to have a hard time explaining their net income which exceeds $12.7 billion for past twelve months—not to mention the billions they've earned in net income over the past decade. For the quarter which ended June 30th GM's net income exceeded $2.8 billion.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11262 on: September 08, 2021, 08:26:34 pm »

Really? Where do you get your data on corporate financials?
Earth 2.  ;D
Quote
If GM "is ready to go up belly up again", they're going to have a hard time explaining their net income which exceeds $12.7 billion for past twelve months—not to mention the billions they've earned in net income over the past decade. For the quarter which ended June 30th GM's net income exceeded $2.8 billion.
That's Earth 1 and thanks for pointing that out for those of us living there.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11263 on: September 08, 2021, 08:38:36 pm »

Indeed, the government just screws the economy up.

If you start with a premise as narrow as that, an entire PhD course in economics could be completed in less than a day—online. Then again, I suppose we could just go back to keeping the economic system from falling too far out of balance with mobs wielding torches and pitchforks.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11264 on: September 08, 2021, 08:40:05 pm »

If GM "is ready to go up belly up again", they're going to have a hard time explaining their net income which exceeds $12.7 billion for past twelve months—not to mention the billions they've earned in net income over the past decade. For the quarter which ended June 30th GM's net income exceeded $2.8 billion.

Past information can be dangerously misleading for the new times. 
Yes, GM's income for 2020 was higher than for 2019, but so are their loan obligations (see the quoted text below).
By now, GM and Ford are more bank operations than car manufacturers. They haven't been innovating (in the car design and manufacturing)and when you look at their finacial reports, they are train wrecks slowly grinding to a halt.

Quote
Retail loan originations were $7.6 billion for the quarter ended December 31, 2020, compared to $7.3 billion for the quarter ended September 30, 2020, and $5.5 billion for the quarter ended December 31, 2019

Operating lease originations were $6.0 billion for the quarter ended December 31, 2020, compared to $5.5 billion for the quarter ended September 30, 2020, and $5.4 billion for the quarter ended December 31, 2019. Operating lease originations for the year ended December 31, 2020 were $19.7 billion, compared to $22.4 billion for the year ended December 31, 2019. Leased vehicles, net was $39.8 billion at December 31, 2020, compared to $42.1 billion at December 31, 2019.

The outstanding balance of commercial finance receivables, net of fees was $9.1 billion at December 31, 2020, compared to $12.1 billion at December 31, 2019
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210210005520/en/GM-Financial-Reports-Full-Year-and-Fourth-Quarter-2020-Operating-Results
 
Maybe one of the three present legacy US car manufacturers will survive, but if you want to learn about their bankruptcy outlook from a different perspective than from the White House bureaucrats and traditional financial analysts, watch these links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAtm8EFoq4E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPhpntKlPFI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwDcSjUFqQk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6HkoS0qCYw

If you watch the following video about the half-assed and needlessly expensive design of the new Ford Mustand Mach-E, you'll see why you shouldn't buy their cars.
The attached picture with a nightmarish collection of hoses is shown at 10:00 min.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1kHsd3Ocxc&t=147s
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 08:54:28 pm by LesPalenik »
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11265 on: September 08, 2021, 08:51:56 pm »

By now, GM and Ford are more bank operations than car manufacturers.

I looked at the GM financials and they are making a profit from both financial services and manufacturing—and yes, financial services is the most profitable. Then again, they sold 6.8 million cars and trucks in 2020—so, I'd say that they're still in the game as car manufacturers as well.

They aren't the largest motor vehicle producer in the world anymore and haven't been in years—but they are the 4th largest, and that ain't hay.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11266 on: September 08, 2021, 08:55:15 pm »

By now, GM and Ford are more bank operations than car manufacturers. They haven't been innovating (in the car design and manufacturing)and when you look at their finacial reports, they are train wrecks slowly grinding to a halt.
Yeah, like that Ford F150 Electric.

https://insideevs.com/news/530620/ford-reveals-reservation-numbers-evs/
Ford Reveals Current Reservation Numbers For Upcoming EVs
Quote
The line of customers interested in the F-150 Lightning and E-Transit keeps getting longer.
By the way of releasing sales results in the U.S. for the month of August, Ford has revealed also the current number of reservations for its two new electric vehicles - F-150 Lightning and E-Transit.
The cumulative number of reservations for the Ford F-150 Lightning pickup stands at over 130,000, which means that about 10,000 were added in the past month.

"Ford’s fully electric F-150 Lightning reservations have now crossed the 130,000 mark."
20,000 in 12 hours (May 20)
44,500 in 48 hours (May 21)
70,000 in about 8 days (May 27)
100,000 in about three weeks (June 9)
120,000 in over two months (July 28)
130,000 in over three months (September 2)
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11267 on: September 08, 2021, 08:56:51 pm »

I looked at the GM financials and they are making a profit from both financial services and manufacturing—and yes, financial services is the most profitable. Then again, they sold 6.8 million cars and trucks in 2020—so, I'd say that they're still in the game as car manufacturers as well.

They aren't the largest motor vehicle producer in the world anymore and haven't been in years—but they are the 4th largest, and that ain't hay.

Yes, their current ICE vehicle sales figures look quite respectable right now, but if you look at the trend, less so.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 09:06:37 pm by LesPalenik »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11268 on: September 08, 2021, 09:03:45 pm »

Yeah, like that Ford F150 Electric.

https://insideevs.com/news/530620/ford-reveals-reservation-numbers-evs/
Ford Reveals Current Reservation Numbers For Upcoming EVs

Ford F150 Lightning truck looks indeed good (until you compare it with Tesla's Cybertruck, which by the way, has 10 times more reservations than F150 Lighting).
We'll have to wait until mid 2022 until any of them will be available.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11269 on: September 08, 2021, 09:14:07 pm »

It will be interesting to see how they sell. The Tesla starts at $40K. You can drop as much as $79K. The Ford: $39,974 up to around $90,474.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11270 on: September 08, 2021, 09:15:52 pm »

if you want to learn about their bankruptcy outlook from a different perspective than from the White House bureaucrats and traditional financial analysts, watch these links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAtm8EFoq4E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPhpntKlPFI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwDcSjUFqQk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6HkoS0qCYw

I could study automotive economic trends on YouTube and be informed by the links you provided to: Solving The Money Problem (whose channel looks like it's devoted to Tesla); The Electric Viking; BestInTESLA; and HyperChange—but, I think I'll just stick to "traditional financial analysts" for the time being.

This YouTube video, from financial and investing advice company The Motley Fool, features their Senior Auto Specialist John Rosevear. The first 10 minutes of the video they discuss financial performance and trends for GM including their investments in new technologies.

https://www.youtube.com/INDUSTRY FOCUS 05-06-2021
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11271 on: September 08, 2021, 10:21:43 pm »

I could study automotive economic trends on YouTube and be informed by the links you provided to: Solving The Money Problem (whose channel looks like it's devoted to Tesla); The Electric Viking; BestInTESLA; and HyperChange—but, I think I'll just stick to "traditional financial analysts" for the time being.

This YouTube video, from financial and investing advice company The Motley Fool, features their Senior Auto Specialist John Rosevear. The first 10 minutes of the video they discuss financial performance and trends for GM including their investments in new technologies.

https://www.youtube.com/INDUSTRY FOCUS 05-06-2021

Indeed, there are hundreds of traditional financial analysts, wanna-be experts and various quacks on youtube. And their opinions on car making are as varying as yours and mine.
 
I watched the first 15 minutes of the May 2021 Motley Fool video you provided in which Nick Sciple is saying that GM is executing and he thinks that even GM's EVs are on track, but his numbers are based on their legacy car fleet, not on EVs.  Motley Fool has 300 people on permanent payroll and over 1,000 writers writing for them. As it happens, they don't have any new videos on Tesla and other car manufacturers, but if you watch some of the videos by Cathie Wood's of ARK Invest, who has a stellar stock picking record, she will tell you about the looming dangers for the legacy car manufacturers.

By the way, David Gardner, one of the two Motley Fool partners and brothers, owns also Tesla shares in his portfolio and he bought it about ten years ago at $6.26 (adjusted share value). And holding to it. That's 120X (12,000% profit) based on today's TSLA share price. In the official Motley Fool portfolio, Tesla position ranks sixth at 3.2% after Apple and the other four FAANGs. You and Andrew might find it interesting that Ford and GM are nowhere in sight in that Fool 100 portfolio. 

For the record, personally I identify more with Cathie Wood's philosophy than with the view of the typical Wall Street analysts. In her ARK ETF's Tesla has the largest weight and she steers away from the disrupted companies.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11272 on: September 08, 2021, 10:50:06 pm »

To be honest, I'm not all that interested in the economic trends in automotive manufacturing and don't follow them in any detail—or intend to start. I'm happy that others do though.

It was really just the very broad blanket statements that I saw that prompted any attention from me; in particular, the reference to the GM bailout and the assertion that they were "ready to go up belly up again". So, I'm pretty much done with the topic.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11273 on: September 08, 2021, 11:14:37 pm »

in the middle of a global financial crisis. In addition to calculating the amount of money invested by the government in preventing the collapse of GM and the amount recovered from GM since that time, many other calculations and questions are worthy of consideration. Have you considered what effects the financial collapse of GM would have had across the broader economy at that time? The impact most certainly would have been widespread; affecting not only GM and its employees, as well as their entire supply chain and dealer base; but also the economy more generally and consumer confidence at a critical time.

There are a vast slew of questions, considerations, and calculations to consider when standing on the brink of a global systemic financial meltdown with all of the complex interconnections at risk and at play. You know, the kind of current and future implications of decision making with which armchair critics don't have to concern themselves. This is especially true for those with a simplistic ideological view of how a globally interconnected economic system actually functions.

A detailed accounting of the TARP and the Fannie and Freddie bailouts can be found here.

Really? Where do you get your data on corporate financials?

If GM "is ready to go up belly up again", they're going to have a hard time explaining their net income which exceeds $12.7 billion for past twelve months—not to mention the billions they've earned in net income over the past decade. For the quarter which ended June 30th GM's net income exceeded $2.8 billion.
That's the purpose of Chapter 11 Bankruptcy.  It allows corporations to reorganize holding off debts and restructuring the company so they could become profitable again.  After all, their factories and employees were still there.   Maybe they would have to be bought out like Fiat Italy bought out Chrysler.  Instead, GM has gotten $50 billion taxpayer dollars and the same people who ran it into the ground are left in charge wasting additional resources courtesy of the taxpayer.  I've yet to get a dime's worth of dividends from them for my generosity.  Have they paid us back?

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11274 on: September 08, 2021, 11:17:47 pm »

There are a vast slew of questions, considerations, and calculations to consider when standing on the brink of a global systemic financial meltdown with all of the complex interconnections at risk and at play. You know, the kind of current and future implications of decision making with which armchair critics don't have to concern themselves. This is especially true for those with a simplistic ideological view of how a globally interconnected economic system actually functions.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11275 on: September 08, 2021, 11:23:16 pm »

There are a vast slew of questions, considerations, and calculations to consider when standing on the brink of a global systemic financial meltdown with all of the complex interconnections at risk and at play. You know, the kind of current and future implications of decision making with which armchair critics don't have to concern themselves. This is especially true for those with a simplistic ideological view of how a globally interconnected economic system actually functions.

The government and Fed's answer to all these complexities is to keep interest rates artificially low and to keep printing and keep spending what they're printing.  That's the long and short of it.

It isn't going to end well. 

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11276 on: September 08, 2021, 11:25:03 pm »

If you start with a premise as narrow as that, an entire PhD course in economics could be completed in less than a day—online. Then again, I suppose we could just go back to keeping the economic system from falling too far out of balance with mobs wielding torches and pitchforks.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11277 on: September 08, 2021, 11:30:40 pm »

If you start with a premise as narrow as that, an entire PhD course in economics could be completed in less than a day—online. Then again, I suppose we could just go back to keeping the economic system from falling too far out of balance with mobs wielding torches and pitchforks.

When the economy collapses because of our huge debt and bubbles and printing, that's when you'll see the mobs wielding torches and pitchforks. 

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11278 on: September 08, 2021, 11:36:58 pm »

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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #11279 on: September 08, 2021, 11:43:51 pm »

You're too lateThey're already here.
They were here too.  But I'm not talking about these nut cases on both sides. I'm referring to normal people who ordinarily mind their own businesses, who will riot as the economy collapses because of stupid economic and monetary policies of the government and central banks. 
https://nypost.com/2020/06/01/nyc-looters-clash-with-protesters-as-another-night-of-chaos-erupts/
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