Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[James Clark]

Poor people are poor because of bad decisions.  Yes, there are exceptions, but most of the time it is a factor of bad decisions.  If you are stiil making minimum wage by the time you are 50 with kids, you made some pretty bad decisions, and are continuing to do so.  Giving them money does not help them, but only enables more bad decisions.  I know this; I am related to people who never went out of their way to gain a skill and are not well off because of it. 

I've worked in the restaurant industry for years, and we would go out of our way not hire an addict.  The problem is that most out of work addicts don't come off as being an addict.  They are on time and punctual, get their work done, even after a couple of weeks.  Then, out of nowhere, usually a month in, they are a drunk again.  Why the sudden shift?  Because they now have caught up on their bills and have some extra money. 

A broke addict is sober; a rich addict is drunk. 

Just throwing money at people does not solve the problem, and in many cases makes it worse.

Are you certain?

The study, though small, offers a counter to the myths that people who become poor get that way because they’re bad at rational decision-making and self-control, and are thus intrinsically to blame for their situation, and that people getting free money will blow it on frivolous things or addictive substances. Studies have consistently shown that cash transfers don’t increase the consumption of “temptation goods”; they either decrease it or have no effect on it.

“I have been working with people experiencing homelessness as a family physician for 16 years and I am in no way surprised that the people who received this cash used it wisely,” Gary Bloch, a Canadian doctor who prescribes money to low-income patients, told me.

“It should be fairly self-evident by now that providing cash to people who are very low-income will have a positive effect,” he added. “We have seen that in other work (conditional cash transfer programs in Latin America, guaranteed annual income studies in Manitoba), and I would expect a similar outcome here.”

What’s more, according to Foundations for Social Change, giving out the cash transfers in the Vancouver area actually saved the broader society money. Enabling 50 people to move into housing faster saved the shelter system $8,100 per person over the year, for a total savings of $405,000. That’s more than the value of the cash transfers, which means the transfers pay for themselves.

“People think that the status quo is cheap, but it’s actually incredibly expensive,” Williams said. “So why don’t we just give people the cash they need to transform their lives?”

[digitaldog]

Poor people are poor because of bad decisions.  Yes, there are exceptions, but most of the time it is a factor of bad decisions.

Another in a long series of proof of the empathy black hole from Joe.

[JoeKitchen]

Are you certain?

Did I see any stats in tis response or, as par the course, just anecdotal evidence from one person? 

Furthermore, making people wards of the state by giving them constant cash payments can help them live better, but not by their own accord.  It is not a sustainable solution, otherwise we would all be getting cash payouts from big brother. 

Not to mention paying people not to work atrophies their skills, making them even more dependent. 

But anyway, both liberal and conservative think tanks have shown repeatable if you dont want to be poor, finish high school, dont have a baby before marriage, get married, and dont get arrested for anything serious.  All pretty simple stuff that even I was able to avoid, albeit there were a hand full of times I flirted with the latter in my hay day.

[digitaldog]

Are you certain?

Did I see any stats in tis response or, as par the course, just anecdotal evidence from one person? 

He didn't read it James, or likely understand it hence the silly question above.
The study, conducted by the charity Foundations for Social Change in partnership with the University of British Columbia, was fairly simple. It identified 50 people in the Vancouver area who had become homeless in the past two years.

"Life is hard, but it's harder if you're stupid". MICHAEL CRICHTON

[Robert Roaldi]

Poor people are poor because of bad decisions.  ....

Yes, I think I read somewhere that the Great Depression was the fault of the assembly line workers at Ford, so they deserved to end up as hobos.

[James Clark]

Both liberal and conservative think tanks have shown repeatable if you dont want to be poor, finish high school, dont have a baby before marriage, get married, and dont get arrested for anything serious.  All pretty simple stuff that even I was able to avoid, albeit there were a hand full of times I flirted with the latter in my hay day.

You forgot the most prevalent indicator of future success - simply don't be born poor.

[digitaldog]

You forgot the most prevalent indicator of future success - simply don't be born poor.

And if possible, white!

[James Clark]

And if possible, white!

Or at least Anglo Saxon.

[Peter McLennan]

Did I see any stats in tis response or, as par the course, just anecdotal evidence from one person? 

ie "there's a growing body of evidence..."  as you posted earlier without proof or attribution.

The whole rightist story of "people are poor because it's their own fault" is false, unhelpful and relentlessly hurtful.

[Alan Klein]

The best way to help the poor and most people is to have a dynamic economy with full employment, best created by free markets with minimum government interference. 

[Robert Roaldi]

The best way to help the poor and most people is to have a dynamic economy with full employment, best created by free markets with minimum government interference.

You mean like Reagan Bush, Trump and Clinton did?   

[Alan Klein]

You mean like Reagan Bush, Trump and Clinton did?   

There's been too much government interference for decades.

[digitaldog]

You mean like Reagan Bush, Trump and Clinton did?   

He was unable to answer that question for obvious reasons.
Generalizations based on misunderstandings; he's your man.

[TechTalk]

For the better part of a month, I took a break from this forum. I did so around the same time that faberryman and jeremyrh stated that they would no longer be posting. Speaking for myself, the reason was simply disgust.

A poster in this thread had earlier attributed racist thoughts and even falsely attributed racist statements to jeremy. Understandably, it left jeremy pretty upset. There was a strong negative reaction at the time from multiple posters to the false attributions, but there was no apology—only doubling down followed by pleas of victimhood from the offender. It came up again in another thread and after seeing rationalization and minimization made by another poster—with whom I have had both constant disagreement, but for whom I also had respect—that it was just an inference, I was just too disgusted by the whole scene and decided to walk away for awhile.

The scene hasn't changed. There are still plenty of assertions made that are amusing, sad, false, misleading, ill-informed, or occasionally disgusting. Despite that, I've resumed posting and I hope that someday we will see posts again from fabberyman and jeremyrh.

In the meantime, I'll occasionally post whatever I feel is of interest or relevance to myself and attempt to avoid falling into the trap of replying to posters with merry-go-round arguments, full of the repetition, deflection, and diversion favored by those pushing a narrow and rigid ideological agenda.

It isn't my forum, so it isn't my place to offer invitations. But, I would welcome seeing posts from fabberyman and jeremyrh again. Of course, I would also understand if they're simply done with this place.

[digitaldog]

For the better part of a month, I took a break from this forum. I did so around the same time that faberryman and jeremyrh stated that they would no longer be posting. Speaking for myself, the reason was simply disgust.

I agree with everything you stated, felt the same way. As for jeremyrh, I can say with strong certainty (we've communicated via email), he will not be coming back. It isn't solely due to this forum or the posts here. He is active on PhotoPXL.
https://photopxl.com

[Alan Klein]

For the better part of a month, I took a break from this forum. I did so around the same time that faberryman and jeremyrh stated that they would no longer be posting. Speaking for myself, the reason was simply disgust.

A poster in this thread had earlier attributed racist thoughts and even falsely attributed racist statements to jeremy. Understandably, it left jeremy pretty upset. There was a strong negative reaction at the time from multiple posters to the false attributions, but there was no apology—only doubling down followed by pleas of victimhood from the offender. It came up again in another thread and after seeing rationalization and minimization made by another poster—with whom I have had both constant disagreement, but for whom I also had respect—that it was just an inference, I was just too disgusted by the whole scene and decided to walk away for awhile.

The scene hasn't changed. There are still plenty of assertions made that are amusing, sad, false, misleading, ill-informed, or occasionally disgusting. Despite that, I've resumed posting and I hope that someday we will see posts again from fabberyman and jeremyrh.

In the meantime, I'll occasionally post whatever I feel is of interest or relevance to myself and attempt to avoid falling into the trap of replying to posters with merry-go-round arguments, full of the repetition, deflection, and diversion favored by those pushing a narrow and rigid ideological agenda.

It isn't my forum, so it isn't my place to offer invitations. But, I would welcome seeing posts from fabberyman and jeremyrh again. Of course, I would also understand if they're simply done with this place.

there were never false attributions about racism attributed to those people.  I'm curious if you're as concerned about charges of racism attributed to Trump supporters here for over five years?

[LesPalenik]

Big boost for US car manufacturers and a great deal for US car buyers.

Joe Biden has proposed a number of EV incentives since taking office. One of the bills with EV incentives embedded in it is the Clean Energy for America Act. The bill made it out of the Senate Finance Committee Wednesday with a key modification from Sen. Debbie Stabenow (D., Mich.).

The Made in America provision continues the $7,500 tax credit for EV purchases through 2026—importantly eliminating a cap affecting General Motors (ticker: GM) and Tesla (TSLA). But an additional $2,500 credit is added for cars assembled in the U.S., and another $2,500 credit is added for cars built with unionized labor.

GM, essentially, goes from $0 purchase incentives to $12,500 per vehicle. A new Ford (F) F-150 electric pickup truck suddenly starts at about $27,500 with incentives, instead of $40,000. And Tesla gets a $10,000 per-car incentive, more than the $7,500 tax credit it received earlier in its existence.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/tesla-gets-a-big-boost-in-washington-investors-dont-notice-51622149542?siteid=yhoof2

[TechTalk]

One assertion that caught my attention recently was "people need the right to bare arms". Well, with the warmer weather, we will probably see a lot of that with sleeveless attire being seasonable once again.

If I have the energy and inclination sometime, I may write something on the Second Amendment "right to bear arms" and the repeated assertion that the "true purpose" was to give people or the states a way to protect themselves from a tyrannical federal government. Not in the mood to do so now as there's a far more complex and subtle history and context than any of those with extreme or rigid views on any side of the subject will acknowledge. Subtlety and complexity are the mortal enemies of rigid ideology.

Needless to say, but there are federal statutes to provide for punishing assault on a federal agent or official. Anyone owing allegiance to the United States engaged in or aiding an act of war, whether foreign or domestic, against the federal government is committing treason under the Constitution. Various states have their own laws to define and punish treason against the state government. In broad general terms, the Founders and Framers sought to guard against both tyranny and anarchy, in crafting a balanced framework for a well-regulated civil society to insure domestic tranquility—believing that the ability to lead a peaceful life, free from the fear of mob rule, was also an essential ingredient of liberty.

[TechTalk]

Have you ever noticed that if you raise issues like repetition, deflection, diversion, or claims of victimhood; there are people, so oblivious and unmindful of what you've said, that they're eager to get to the keyboard and put those very things on display? When you can get all of them into one sentence—then it becomes truly impressive!

[JoeKitchen]

ie "there's a growing body of evidence..."  as you posted earlier without proof or attribution.

The whole rightist story of "people are poor because it's their own fault" is false, unhelpful and relentlessly hurtful.

Yes, but if you read Alan's post a couple before mine you would have seen that 1/4 of those on unemployment are making more then going back to work.  That alone shows that it is keeping people out of work. 

I'll say it again, poor people are poor due to bad decisions and too much government "help."  I went over this before, public a program like public housing destroyed the equity of the black community.  In the 1960s, black neighborhoods had a high rate of homeownership in many areas that neighboring white neighborhoods, even though the houses were worth less.  This is how it worked for many other ethnicities climbing up the ladder. 

In an effort to help out inner city blacks and minorities, because those houses just were not worth as much as others, the government created public housing that, taking equity away from homeowners on the plots were they built the housing.  They then put in rent control, making it impossible for owners to keep up with maintenance.  This then lowered the overall value of houses even more and drew crime into the area.  This did so much worse then what it did to help. 

We need to just leave people alone and let them figure it out.  We need to stop basing our policies off of the snap shot fallacy, and just leave them alone.  We need to stop intervening with how communities naturally develop. 

Alas though, I doubt this will even happen.  Too many people base their life meaning on being White Saviors and/or grifters trying to make a buck.  I think Booker T Washington wrote it best in 1901, “There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.”