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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 1357931 times)

John Camp

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6600 on: February 07, 2021, 11:49:58 am »

Can we dare hope that Sasse, Cheney, and Romney - and maybe Murkowski and Collins - will quit the GOP and become independents?

No.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6601 on: February 07, 2021, 12:33:04 pm »

I just want to mention that it's nice to be back after being banned by the moderator for a week.  He made me sit in the corner like an errant student writing words of affirmative action 100 times for daring to mention politics in another thread besides this one.  I'm holding onto the dunce cap just in case I lose it again.  :)


I doubt Jeremy would do so without provocation.

Welcome back. Perhaps you can explain what happened to the rest of your pals?  Lamson, Slobodan, etc.  ie<insert usual suspects here>
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6602 on: February 07, 2021, 12:35:18 pm »

76 million people voted for Trump, almost half the electorate. There's a powerful move towards populism that will grow as the economy shrinks for many people who will feel left out as they get poorer and lose power.  It's driving the Republicans left and the Democrats even more left.

Unfortunately, we've gotten to the point where people look for government handouts rather than being self-sufficient.  Democrats win in that environment because they've always offered more free giveaways than Republicans.  Trump, of course, was never a Republican and was just as free-spending as Democrats.  He ruined the republican party by moving it to the Democratic party thinking of debt.  Sure, he reduced business taxes and some regulation, a typical Republican move.  But that was it.  So now the whole country is in a fix and it's going to get worse as we break the bank.

This is not worth the effort to respond to except to note that it is interesting that you would round 74,111,419 up to 76 million.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 02:29:03 pm by faberryman »
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6603 on: February 07, 2021, 12:39:23 pm »

Cheney voted against Trump because he insulted her father, the former VP.  Romney hates Trump because of what Trump said negatively about him and made him look like a fool during the nomination process in 2016.  Nancy Pelosi impeached Trump for what he said about her too.  Everyone's trying to get even. All the political regulars can't stand Trump because he's an outsider who won the presidency despite their attacks.  Both Republicans and Democrats really don't want him to run again in 2024, but who knows?

I'll just assume that these are your personal opinions, and that you are not intending to assert these as statements of fact.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 12:42:50 pm by faberryman »
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Manoli

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6604 on: February 07, 2021, 12:41:34 pm »

I doubt Jeremy would do so without provocation.

Perhaps, perhaps not.
As you can see from this thread, Jeremy is on what he euphemistically calls, 'probation'.
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=137554.0
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6605 on: February 07, 2021, 12:49:07 pm »

I just want to mention that it's nice to be back after being banned by the moderator for a week. 
Ah, that explains a lot!  :o
Maybe Bart can be a new role model...
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6606 on: February 07, 2021, 12:49:14 pm »

76 million people voted for Trump, almost half the electorate. There's a powerful move towards populism that will grow as the economy shrinks for many people who will feel left out as they get poorer and lose power.  It's driving the Republicans left and the Democrats even more left.

Unfortunately, we've gotten to the point where people look for government handouts rather than being self-sufficient.  Democrats win in that environment because they've always offered more free giveaways than Republicans.  Trump, of course, was never a Republican and was just as free-spending as Democrats.  He ruined the republican party by moving it to the Democratic party thinking of debt.  Sure, he reduced business taxes and some regulation, a typical Republican move.  But that was it.  So now the whole country is in a fix and it's going to get worse as we break the bank.

Some aspects of growing populism in light of political correctness and other naive movements are quite understandable. After all, it is happening not only in USA but also in other countries. However, choosing Trump to lead such a course would be foolish and dangerous.
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6607 on: February 07, 2021, 01:57:17 pm »

Some aspects of growing populism in light of political correctness and other naive movements are quite understandable. After all, it is happening not only in USA but also in other countries. However, choosing Trump to lead such a course would be foolish and dangerous.

I may be having a mental block this morning, or perhaps I have a too narrow view of populism, but despite all of the clearly populist rhetoric, could someone give me a couple of examples of what they deem significant populist legislative or executive action that has been taken over the past four or five years, and explain exactly what it is about such action that makes it populist?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 04:03:40 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6608 on: February 07, 2021, 02:22:04 pm »

I doubt Jeremy would do so without provocation.

Welcome back. Perhaps you can explain what happened to the rest of your pals?  Lamson, Slobodan, etc.  ie<insert usual suspects here>
Maybe they're still sitting in the corner!  :)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6609 on: February 07, 2021, 02:45:43 pm »

Some aspects of growing populism in light of political correctness and other naive movements are quite understandable. After all, it is happening not only in USA but also in other countries. However, choosing Trump to lead such a course would be foolish and dangerous.
Trump was the only populist in 2016.  Hillary Clinton was another ingrained politician representing the old guard, as is Biden now.  Why was it dangerous?  Trump avoided war with North Korea and others.  Populism puts Americans first rather than sending us out on adventures all the time causing a lot of disruptions in the world.  Most non-Americans complain about America butting in all the time.  Remember it was Hillary, Biden and Obama who created ISIS and Bush who got us into Iraq.  All traditional denizens of the swamp. Trump had to clear that ISIS mess up. Obama could;t. I doubt if Hillary would have. We'll see how well Biden does in world conflicts. 

LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6610 on: February 07, 2021, 02:49:09 pm »

Trump was the only populist in 2016.  Hillary Clinton was another ingrained politician representing the old guard, as is Biden now.  Why was it dangerous?  Trump avoided war with North Korea and others.  Populism puts Americans first rather than sending us out on adventures all the time causing a lot of disruptions in the world.  Most non-Americans complain about America butting in all the time.  Remember it was Hillary, Biden and Obama who created ISIS and Bush who got us into Iraq.  All traditional denizens of the swamp. Trump had to clear that ISIS mess up. Obama could;t. I doubt if Hillary would have. We'll see how well Biden does in world conflicts.

There was plenty of damage Trump inflicted right in USA.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6611 on: February 07, 2021, 02:51:56 pm »

There was plenty of damage Trump inflicted right in USA.
The damage was created by the left (and Democrats) with their identity politics that separate Americans into tribes that made the issues between French Canadians and other Canadians look like child's play. 

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6612 on: February 07, 2021, 02:52:40 pm »

Populism puts Americans first rather than sending us out on adventures all the time causing a lot of disruptions in the world.

Are you perhaps confusing populism with nationalism, or isolationism? I don't think all these references to "isms" are all that helpful anyway. The definitions are frequently fluid and overlapping, and can be ascribed to thought and action on both the left and the right. Saying someone is a populist doesn't tell you very much. The analysis needs to be more granular to be of any value.

"Of course one cannot speak of one populist foreign policy today. The ideological variability of populist parties and movements is too big, and their capacity to influence foreign policy also varies. Populist parties pursue foreign policies that reflect their domestic preferences and values, but these are mediated by institutional and party system structures (just like the foreign policy preferences of other parties). It is generally difficult to extrapolate foreign policy positions of like-minded ideological parties from their domestic preferences, when states are faced with diverse challenges that make comparability across time and between cases difficult."

https://oxfordre.com/politics/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190228637.001.0001/acrefore-9780190228637-e-467
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 03:56:49 pm by faberryman »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6613 on: February 07, 2021, 03:51:51 pm »

The damage was created by the left (and Democrats) with their identity politics that separate Americans into tribes that made the issues between French Canadians and other Canadians look like child's play.

The estimate for the repair and clean-up costs caused by Trump's incitement on Jan.6 stands currently at $519 million and is still rising. The delay and reluctance in addressing the virus and ridiculing wearing the masks caused hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths and damages in billions of dollars. These are just two examples of his reckless and incompetent behavior.
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PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6614 on: February 07, 2021, 03:58:09 pm »

The damage was created by the left (and Democrats) with their identity politics that separate Americans into tribes that made the issues between French Canadians and other Canadians look like child's play.

The most potent and harmful type of "identity politics" is that practiced by Trump's white supremacist pals.
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Chris Kern

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6615 on: February 07, 2021, 04:14:24 pm »

could someone give me a couple of examples of what they deem significant populist legislative or executive action that has been taken over the past four or five years?

The populists haven't had much influence on legislation, but the Trump Administration used executive authority previously granted by Congress to take actions which would have been anathema to earlier Republican or Democratic administrations:
  • Trump's tariffs, imposed even against strategic suppliers and allies, that were predicated on his long-held, simple-minded personal belief that balance-of-trade determined whether a country was "winning" or "losing" economically, and which had considerable resonance among his populist base;
  • His Administration's withdrawal from the Trans-Pacific Partnership, a well-crafted international agreement that would have impeded China's neomercantilist trade policies but which was unpopular with supporters of his who believed it was possible for the United States to restore manufacturing jobs if we avoided committing ourselves to multilateral trade regimes;
  • The continuous, concerted effort to roll back environmental regulations which were extremely unpopular with Trump's populist base (the bring-back-coal-mining crowd) and, to a lesser extent, with some conservative Republicans;
  • The withdrawal from the Paris Agreement on climate, which was ideologically repugnant to the far right and, again, to some conservatives who had reservations about its terms;
  • His attempts (admittedly mostly futile) to pressure companies into relocating their foreign manufacturing operations to the United States.
Some of Trump's arguably populist positions, particularly his disdain for NATO and his demands for withdrawal of U.S. military forces stationed in other countries, may have been motivated by ideology, but given his bizarre attitudes toward Russia and his fawning behavior with respect to Vladimir Putin, there may have been other reasons for them, as well.

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6616 on: February 07, 2021, 04:21:09 pm »

The populists haven't had much influence on legislation, but the Trump Administration used executive authority previously granted by Congress to take actions which would have been anathema to earlier Republican or Democratic administrations:
  • Trump's tariffs, imposed even against strategic suppliers and allies, that were predicated on his long-held, simple-minded personal belief that balance-of-trade determined whether a country was "winning" or "losing" economically, and which had considerable resonance among his populist base;
  • His Administration's withdrawal from the Trans-Pacific Partnership, a well-crafted international agreement that would have impeded China's neomercantilist trade policies but which was unpopular with supporters of his who believed it was possible for the United States to restore manufacturing jobs if we avoided committing ourselves to multilateral trade regimes;
  • The continuous, concerted effort to roll back environmental regulations which were extremely unpopular with Trump's populist base (the bring-back-coal-mining crowd) and, to a lesser extent, with some conservative Republicans;
  • The withdrawal from the Paris Agreement on climate, which was ideologically repugnant to the far right and, again, to some conservatives who had reservations about its terms;
  • His attempts (admittedly mostly futile) to pressure companies into relocating their foreign manufacturing operations to the United States.
Some of Trump's arguably populist positions, particularly his disdain for NATO and his demands for withdrawal of U.S. military forces stationed in other countries, may have been motivated by ideology, but given his bizarre attitudes toward Russia and his fawning behavior with respect to Vladimir Putin, there may have been other reasons for them, as well.

I guess you could call those executive actions populist, but I don't think it would be an exclusive descriptor.

I wanted to try to get a better handle of this term "populism", so I googled "famous populists" which took me to a Wikipedia page where famous (I guess) populists were listed alphabetically by country, and within each country chronologically. I scrolled down to the United States and I recognized some of the people listed and not others, and got down to contemporary examples and up pops Elizabeth Warren immediately followed by Steve Bannon and Donald Trump. So I don't know if the takeaway is that you can't believe everything you read in Wikipedia or that populism is a pretty big tent. Probably both.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_populists
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 05:18:04 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6617 on: February 07, 2021, 04:23:30 pm »

The estimate for the repair and clean-up costs caused by Trump's incitement on Jan.6 stands currently at $519 million and is still rising. The delay and reluctance in addressing the virus and ridiculing wearing the masks caused hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths and damages in billions of dollars. These are just two examples of his reckless and incompetent behavior.
Where did that amount come from?  $519 million in damage?  Where?  How?  Meanwhile, there were over $2 billion dollars of damage last summer from BLM riots winked at and encouraged by Democrat mayors, congresspeople and other politicians and laypeople and the left that spread across the entire country hurting little people and businesses.  Of course, both sides were wrong.  But comparing the two is a big difference.  In any case, Trump never approved invading the capitol.  The demonstrators got ahead of themselves.  But they didn't burn anything down like the deliberate destruction identity politics encouraged from the left.

Blaming Trump for the virus is nonsense.  The reason I have my first shot already is because of his Warp Speed program.  Democrats were predicting two years or maybe this Spring if we got lucky.  Meanwhile, the current statistics are: 59,307,800 delivered. 41,210,937 Americans got the shot as of today.  That's four times what Canada has given per 100. 11.7/100 USA   vs.    2.8/100 Canada  It seems Trump did better than your PM. 
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6618 on: February 07, 2021, 04:28:38 pm »

The most potent and harmful type of "identity politics" is that practiced by Trump's white supremacist pals.

99.9% of Republicans are not white supremacists just like 99.9% of Democrats aren't left-wing Antifa's and Communists. Most people on both sides ignore these loonies.  Unfortunately, because of our two-party system, they have nowhere else to go. 

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6619 on: February 07, 2021, 04:36:48 pm »

99.9% of Republicans are not white supremacists just like 99.9% of Democrats aren't left-wing Antifa's and Communists.
He's back, making stuff up without any data.  :-X

It should read:
Quote
I, think that 99.9% of Republicans are not white supremacists just like 99.9% of Democrats aren't left-wing Antifa's and Communists just based on a feeling.
In another photo forum, he thinks, without data, that one can upgrade from LR5 to LR6 for free. It's untrue but he believes it, and tells others this as if it's factual. It isn't.
The job of fact checking is, after a week, going to have to begin again.  :-X
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