Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Alan Klein]

The tactics of the false equivalence, changing subjects, deflection, diversion, what aboutism, etc. are all very common for people afraid to directly address an issue.

But, the apparent inability to understand what people have written here or in articles cited is worrisome. I'm guessing it's just willful blindness to anything that doesn't fit inside an extreme devotion to an ideology... but I could be wrong.

Oh, pulease.  No one's changed their minds here in four years.  Everyone keeps repeating their same points, true or not, over and over again. Do you really believe you have a monopoly on the truth?  Your answer to most things is to attack me rather than my statements.  It's a copout.

[Alan Klein]

The guarantee of free speech isn't a guarantee of free transmission. Trump can say anything he wants to anybody he wants (with certain minor restrictions, e.g. not crying 'fire' in a crowded theater.) The guarantee of free speech bans the government from interfering with speech, and the government hasn't tried to restrict Trump's speech. A private company may have its own reasons for blocking a person's use of their private means of transmission -- liability, among other things. Nobody knows what will come out of the court system, so if Trump issues a particular inflammatory statement, and that causes somebody to get killed, is Twitter then partially liable for damages? Well, who really knows how that would work through the courts? And even if Twitter prevailed in a lawsuit that went to the Supreme Court, how much would that cost the company? Do they have the right to protect themselves from such problems? I think they do.

But their concern only seems against one party and one political thought.  If they think a crime is being committed, let them report it to the FBI who can deal with it.  They're not a police agency and have no police powers.  The fact is their censorship is political, not really about crimes anyway.  That's just a figleaf.

[Alan Klein]

I sent this article to the Raleigh, NC News and Observer. They are publishing it tomorrow.

Some Trump supporters claim that the recent riot at the Capitol was somehow equivalent to the riots that occasionally occurred during Black Lives Matter protests. Nothing could be further from the truth; they are completely different. (1) The Capitol protest was completely bogus, aimed at supposed “vote fraud” which, of course, did not happen. The BLM protests were aimed at serious and long-standing racial injustices in our country. (2) The Capitol protest invaded and vandalized the very central symbol of American democracy while the BLM protests at worst damaged some private property and inconsequential public buildings. (3) The Capitol protest’s stated aim was to disrupt and prevent a long-standing and constitutionally mandated part of our democratic process, the certification of electoral college votes. In stark contrast, the goals of the BLM protests were to ensure that constitutional and basic human rights are extended to all Americans regardless of skin color. The difference is night and day.

I think it's great you made your points known in a public forum.  We all should be doing more of that.  I tried with the NY Times internet, but their anti-Trump democrat supported political opinions didn't allow my different viewport to be published by them.  They use to be more open about this.  But now, they've tightened down on what comments they publish.  Maybe it's because I'm not paying for their service.  Does anyone know?

Regarding your post, 1) It is not up to you to decide whose protests have validity.  That's none of your business.  As long as it's legal, it's fine.  You have no right to shut it down.
2) Invasion of the capitol was illegal.  So is BLM looting and burning.  Tell the black owner of a small business who's life savings were lost when they burned down his store that it was, well, only private property that was destroyed.  What if they burned down your house?
3) Who says you can't protest the certification of the electors?  Democrats did that in 2000, 2004, and 2016 presidential elections against Republicans.  Don't believe everything the biased press tells you.  Think for yourself. 

[LesPalenik]

What about the imbeciles who believe Biden's lies about Ukraine and China and his son?  What about all the positions he stated in over 40 years in politics and now says he believes differently?  Is he lying about those things?  Are we all imbeciles?  Or maybe we just support those whose lies we favor?

Biden and Trump operate in totally different universes. Even if Biden told in his life some lies, most probably you could count them on the fingers on one hand.
OTOH, in his last stretch Trump averaged 50 lies per day and is on the track to reach 25,000 lies just in the last four years. Not counting a deluge of stupid bullying remarks.
No wonder, Twitter's patience boiled over.

In 2017, Trump’s first year as president, he averaged six claims a day. That jumped to 16 a day in 2018 and 22 in 2019. So far in 2020, the president has averaged 27 claims a day.

At his current pace, the president will surely exceed 25,000 claims before Election Day. In fact, he probably crossed that threshold this week.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/10/22/president-trump-is-averaging-more-than-50-false-or-misleading-claims-day/

[LesPalenik]

I think it's great you made your points known in a public forum.  We all should be doing more of that.  I tried with the NY Times internet, but their anti-Trump democrat supported political opinions didn't allow my different viewport to be published by them.  They use to be more open about this.  But now, they've tightened down on what comments they publish.  Maybe it's because I'm not paying for their service.  Does anyone know?

Regarding your post, 1) It is not up to you to decide whose protests have validity.  That's none of your business.  As long as it's legal, it's fine.  You have no right to shut it down.
2) Invasion of the capitol was illegal.  So is BLM looting and burning.  Tell the black owner of a small business who's life savings were lost when they burned down his store that it was, well, only private property that was destroyed.  What if they burned down your house?
3) Who says you can't protest the certification of the electors?  Democrats did that in 2000, 2004, and 2016 presidential elections against Republicans.  Don't believe everything the biased press tells you.  Think for yourself.

I agree that there is no way to justify the burning and looting during the BLM protests. The reality is that most of these lootings were committed by professional left fringe hoodlums and troublemakers. Maybe some of them were involved even in the January 6 riots.

[Alan Klein]

German's Chancelor Merkel finds Twitter's actions, "problematic".
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/germanys-merkel-trumps-twitter-eviction-122940474.html

Parler sues Amazon for kicking it off the internet.  It appears that they are an alternative to Twitter that's more conservative in their approach.
https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/11/22225072/parler-amazon-web-services-lawsuit-antitrust-twitter-capitol-riot-incitement-moderation

No one answered my earlier question.  Why can a small store that makes ice cream cakes be required not to discriminate against who their customers are.  But a large company like Twitter or Amazon can?  Who decides where the lines are drawn? 

[Alan Klein]

Biden and Trump operate in totally different universes. Even if Biden told in his life some lies, most probably you could count them on the fingers on one hand.
OTOH, in his last stretch Trump averaged 50 lies per day and is on the track to reach 25,000 lies just in the last four years. Not counting a deluge of stupid bullying remarks.
No wonder, Twitter's patience boiled over.
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/10/22/president-trump-is-averaging-more-than-50-false-or-misleading-claims-day/

If Biden lied about Ukraine, China and his son, he sold out his office of vice president.  That's an impeachable offense.  That's a lot different than everyday lies and misrepresentations politicians say that are legal. 

[Alan Klein]

I agree that there is no way to justify the burning and looting during the BLM protests. The reality is that most of these lootings were committed by professional left fringe hoodlums and troublemakers. Maybe some of them were involved even in the January 6 riots.

Well, the invasion of the capital wasn't some seditious action by a bunch of anarchists.  That's just hype. They were regular Trump supporters complaining about what they thought was an unfair election who got carried away.  They were wrong, definitely with the illegal part.  But let's separate the wheat from the chaff and describe what happened fairly in both cases.

[LesPalenik]

The girl who was found guilty encouraged the teen to take his life.  Trump didn't tell his supporters to invade the capital. He told them to demonstrate which is perfectly legal in America.

Regarding the case you're referring to, I'm not sure that's a crime in my mind.  If someone tells someone he's a sick fool, his life is worth squat and should go blow his brains out and he does that, is that person guilty of assisting suicide?   

Melania Trump Be Best campaign is aimed at children bullies. Some of those kids are really dense and didn't get proper guidance or role models from their parents.
Unfortunately they often learn from wrong role models, such as the adult bullies like Donald and Eric Trumps. What's not good for children is also not good for grown ups.

[LesPalenik]

Well, the invasion of the capital wasn't some seditious action by a bunch of anarchists.  That's just hype. They were regular Trump supporters complaining about what they thought was an unfair election who got carried away.  They were wrong, definitely with the illegal part.  But let's separate the wheat from the chaff and describe what happened fairly in both cases.

Some of the protesters went there just for excitement, others had bombs, zip-ties, nooses and other weapons ready and a detailed plan how to get to the Pelosi office. At the end, all committed serious crimes.

[Robert Roaldi]

No one answered my earlier question.  Why can a small store that makes ice cream cakes be required not to discriminate against who their customers are.  But a large company like Twitter or Amazon can?  Who decides where the lines are drawn?

Is it discrimination or violation of terms of service? Your questions are always loaded.

[Alan Klein]

Melania Trump Be Best campaign is aimed at children bullies. Some of those kids are really dense and didn't get proper guidance role models from their parents.
Unfortunately they often learn from wrong role models, such as the adult bullies like Donald and Eric Trumps. What's not good for children is also not good for grown ups.

The Trump families seem very healthy to me.  They seem poised, with it, smart, ambitious, entrepreneurial, clever, family-oriented, smart, personable.  Meanwhile, Biden's kid is a drug addict.  I don't think it's fair to judge people in any case.  We really don;t know them personally. 

Now I've dealt with Trump in a small way in business in NYC construction and real estate.  I know his type and wouldn't deal with him on a business basis.  But there are a lot of tough businesspeople in NYC.  It's the only way to survive there in many cases.  The city toughens you up.  But being tough is not immoral.  Could you have stood up to the assault on Trump over five years?  I couldn't.    In any case, being president of the United States isn't tiddlywinks.

[Alan Klein]

Some of the protesters went there just for excitement, others had bombs, zip-ties, nooses and other weapons ready and a detailed plan how to get to the Pelosi office. At the end, all committed serious crimes.

Those that planned invasion of the capital should be charged with more serious crimes.  But most of the people were there to protest and support Trump.  The situation is similar to the BLM protests.  Most people were just regular people who were protesting.  But there were some from Antifa and other groups who planned and carried out serious crimes.  Curious if any of these latter people are being prosecuted? 

[LesPalenik]

Those that planned invasion of the capital should be charged with more serious crimes.  But most of the people were there to protest and support Trump.  The situation is similar to the BLM protests.  Most people were just regular people who were protesting.  But there were some from Antifa and other groups who planned and carried out serious crimes.  Curious if any of these latter people are being prosecuted?

That proves my point. By repeating his lies for the last two months, he manipulated those dimwits into believing that he won the elections and into riots and insurgency. That evening he declared his undying love to them, and next day he threw them all under bus in another tweet. I don't understand how you can side with such an individual.

[TechTalk]

Do you really believe you have a monopoly on the truth?

No. I think absolute truth is an illusion and the most you can hope to achieve is a best version of it based on what is currently known.  I think truth is something that you have to continually seek and be open to re-evaluating based on the quality of the evidence you have.

If I walked into a room of strangers and was told that group over there has an ideology in which they have a sure belief and that group over there has no sure beliefs but are exploring ideas and information—it's the second group with whom I'd like to chat. I'm more interested in people whose eyes, ears, and minds are open to new information and who regularly question their own assumptions than in blind parrots that just repeat the same phrases over and over without hesitation or thought. Parrots make a lot of noise, but you can't learn much from them.

Unfortunately, There are people who have an emotional fear of uncertainty. They tend to get sucked into fundamentalist ideology or cults and are comforted by narrow points of view that make the world easier to understand. They see the world in simplistic black and white terms which facilitates finding comfort in certainty. They run away from complexity by covering it over with a thin veneer of labels and stereotypes to enable their simple and repetitive talking points. Others may just be too intellectually lazy and use ideology as a crutch in order to have an opinion about everything without much effort. In either case, ideology, especially the fundamentalist type, becomes welded to self-identity and is difficult to penetrate for that reason. The current Trump cult is only one of many examples currently and throughout history.

The belief that any person or ideology has a "monopoly on the truth" is a fantasy born of delusion. The world is complex and getting more so all the time. Anyone believing they can grasp all of its complexity is lying to themselves.

[MattBurt]

Those that planned invasion of the capital should be charged with more serious crimes.  But most of the people were there to protest and support Trump.  The situation is similar to the BLM protests.  Most people were just regular people who were protesting.  But there were some from Antifa and other groups who planned and carried out serious crimes.  Curious if any of these latter people are being prosecuted?

There appears to be 0 evidence of a single Antifa infiltrator in that incident according to the FBI.
This is where alternative facts are at odds with actual facts and although it might make you feel better to say it, it appears to be 100% BS.
But by all means enjoy that feeling while you parrot lies.

[TechTalk]

Oh, pulease.  No one's changed their minds here in four years.

Alan, he disgraced himself and the country.  Up until today my opinion was to ride it out until Jan 20th, but now that it is coming to light Pence had to supersede Trump and order the national guard himself, he has clearly abdicated his duty as president. 

I am for the immediate removal of Trump either by resignation or impeachment. 

[John Camp]

Well, the invasion of the capital wasn't some seditious action by a bunch of anarchists.  That's just hype. They were regular Trump supporters complaining about what they thought was an unfair election who got carried away.  They were wrong, definitely with the illegal part.  But let's separate the wheat from the chaff and describe what happened fairly in both cases.

They beat a cop to death.

[John Camp]

The Trump families seem very healthy to me.  They seem poised, with it, smart, ambitious, entrepreneurial, clever, family-oriented, smart, personable.  Meanwhile, Biden's kid is a drug addict.  I don't think it's fair to judge people in any case.  We really don;t know them personally. 

They're a crime family. Trump's parents were criminals, Trump is a criminal, his children are criminals who conspired to cheat on taxes and to take illegal payments (in Ivanka's case.) Jared's a slum lord, as was his recently pardoned father, whose crimes were disgusting. If there was serious justice in the US, they'd all be in prison.

[TechTalk]

Your answer to most things is to attack me rather than my statements.

If frequently highlighting your falsehoods and misleading assertions and then linking to evidence that undermines your statements is considered by you an attack, then so be it. The frequency does sometimes lead to a question of credibility, but you haven't seemed to worry much about that—why start now?

It's a copout.

Yeah... playing victim is frequently just that.