Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Alan Klein]

Among others - sexual harrasment, obstruction of justice, bank fraud, tax fraud, insurance fraud, conspiring with Russians.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/donald-trump-criminal-case.html

Conspiring with Russians? Didn't we settle that with Mueller?

You're assuming all these other crimes..  Why?  Because Democrats say he did them? Republicans say the Biden conspired and used Biden's VP office to make money in China and Ukraine.  Does that make them criminals?  You're using political charges as real facts.  Now, Biden's son is under actual investigation for that right now by the justice department.  That's more than what's happening to Trump. 

However, I agree that I think he will be charged because democrats run New York State and the prosecutors there are Democrats and want to make a name for themselves.  The hatred of Trump won't stop.  They're telling anyone else who's not a political insider and who'snot willing to play the game, don't ever think of running or we will destroy you like Trump.  It's very unfortunate it's happening.  Because we need new blood in politics, people willing to go against the grain and fight for the people instead of the usually protected political, business and fianacial institutions.

[Alan Klein]

Both have been explained, but you are either unable or unwilling to comprehend what was posted—or both.

I asked Peter to explain his point not for you to tell me it's been explained. It hasn't.  He's big enough to explain himself.

[Alan Klein]

You make the same circular argument over and over; appear to be unable to grasp the seriousness of an assault on the U.S. Capitol; and are absolutely intent on diverting and deflecting attention everywhere except where it belongs.

Well, we disagree.  We'll just have to wait to see if they are charged with sedition and if they are whether a jury will make that finding and it will hold up on appeal if they do.

[TechTalk]

I asked Peter to explain his point not for you to tell me it's been explained. It hasn't.  He's big enough to explain himself.

It doesn't matter how big anyone is or how much explaining one does if the explanations just bounce off and your response appears to ignore the explanation. You're big enough to not require so much hand holding to understand what people are saying to you.

[TechTalk]

Well, we disagree.  We'll just have to wait to see if they are charged with sedition and if they are whether a jury will make that finding and it will hold up on appeal if they do.

I know you'd like to focus on one word and drive it into the ground with lots of repetitious arguments which include a lot of diversion along the way. I wouldn't get overly focused on sedition as it has a conspiracy element which makes it more difficult to prosecute. There are a number of other federal crimes that are more likely charges including insurrection and domestic terrorism among others.

[jeremyrh]

I agree with that point of view.  The question is that Twitter is not publishing an article like NatGeo.  They are only a conduit for other people's communications like the phone system.  Verizon can't censor my messaging or email.  How is twittering different?  Now I don't have Twitter, so I'm not familiar with what goes on in it or Facebook for that matter.  But why can Verizon be prevented from not censoring controversial speech or any speech for that matter.  But Twitter and Facebook can?

For the same reason that Roussak can ban you from the forum for whatever he likes. What do you think the difference is?

[Alan Klein]

For the same reason that Roussak can ban you from the forum for whatever he likes. What do you think the difference is?

Our posts at LuLa are public.  Anyone can log on and see them.  Aren't tweets like emails and messages.  They're sent from private party to private party. Our wireless companies don't read our mail.  Why is Twitter and Facebook reading our tweets and private posts?  It's none of their business what I'm saying to you or you to me.  Aren't they just a service like your ICP and telephone and wireless carriers? 

[jeremyrh]

Our posts at LuLa are public.  Anyone can log on and see them.  Aren't tweets like emails and messages.  They're sent from private party to private party. Our wireless companies don't read our mail.  Why is Twitter and Facebook reading our tweets and private posts?  It's none of their business what I'm saying to you or you to me.  Aren't they just a service like your ICP and telephone and wireless carriers?

No they're not private. They're the same as a forum. Anyone can see Trump's emissions.

[chez]

Trump didn't incite a coup.  You're leading the witness counselor. When did you stop beating your wife?

Did Democrats assigning blame to cops for violence and racism against blacks incite violence from those blacks on the left who then assassinated cops or burned and looted?  Were you equally concerned with incitement when you favor the cause? Or did you say that people have a right to say what they feel short of real incitement and if some extreme nutty people use that as an excuse to do violence, well, we have to live with those rare results because freedom of speech is more important?  In Europe, Muslim women can't wear face coverings are arguing that may incite other Europeans.  We in America find that those women have freedom of speech to express themselves.  Screw others if they get upset or may move towards violence because of hajibs.  We accept that may happen because we find speech more important.  That's who we Americans are.

Alan...you are so blinded by the light....you'll follow Trump down the sewer hole. As far as you "That's who we Americans are" chest pounding BS...much of the world has free speach...but I haven't seen any leader of the Western world use this free speach to encite his deciples to attack a government building in order to disrupt the finalization of change of government.

[TechTalk]

Aren't tweets like emails and messages.  They're sent from private party to private party.

Trump's tweets have been in the news for five very very long years. Businesses and individuals use Facebook and twitter every day to advertise and post messages to the world. Like you, I and lots of others that I know don't have Twitter or Facebook accounts and do not participate in posting on social media, but frequently view what others post on their accounts. People frequently post links here to tweets from others—like this post... You can click on the link...

As a follow up to your post, here's a two-minute video of proud rioters leaving the Capitol. Written on the door are the words "Murder The Media"—on a door of the United States Capitol. For years now, Trump apologists have been saying that we worry too much about Trump's rhetoric—well, screw that idea.

https://twitter.com/mattmiller757/Rioters Leaving Capitol Video - Murder The Media

Even if you don't have any social media accounts, are you telling us that you don't understand that these are generally publicly available online for anyone to view? You have never seen a public tweet or Facebook post in your life? You've never seen news sites online with Twitter or Facebook posts linked as part of the story they're reporting?

[JoeKitchen]

Trump didn't incite a coup.  You're leading the witness counselor. When did you stop beating your wife?

Did Democrats assigning blame to cops for violence and racism against blacks incite violence from those blacks on the left who then assassinated cops or burned and looted?  Were you equally concerned with incitement when you favor the cause? Or did you say that people have a right to say what they feel short of real incitement and if some extreme nutty people use that as an excuse to do violence, well, we have to live with those rare results because freedom of speech is more important?  In Europe, Muslim women can't wear face coverings are arguing that may incite other Europeans.  We in America find that those women have freedom of speech to express themselves.  Screw others if they get upset or may move towards violence because of hajibs.  We accept that may happen because we find speech more important.  That's who we Americans are.

Alan, he disgraced himself and the country.  Up until today my opinion was to ride it out until Jan 20th, but now that it is coming to light Pence had to supersede Trump and order the national guard himself, he has clearly abdicated his duty as president. 

I am for the immediate removal of Trump either by resignation or impeachment. 

Furthermore, we can not justify these actions by pointing to the immorality of the opposing side of not denouncing their political violence last summer and fall.  Doing so only decreases our standing.  We should not allow them to forget how morally bereft they are, but, still, it is not a justification for this past Wednesday. 

Now, this is not to say we abandon all the great policy of the last four years nor retreat back into choosing politeness over truth telling.  I plan on fighting just as vehemently for conservative values. 

Anyway, getting ready to risk it for the brisket, and Chicago deep dish pizza.  Leaving tomorrow for two weeks of travel. 

[Alan Klein]

Trump's tweets have been in the news for five very very long years. Businesses and individuals use Facebook and twitter every day to advertise and post messages to the world. Like you, I and lots of others that I know don't have Twitter or Facebook accounts and do not participate in posting on social media, but frequently view what others post on their accounts. People frequently post links here to tweets from others—like this post... You can click on the link...

Even if you don't have any social media accounts, are you telling us that you don't understand that these are generally publicly available online for anyone to view? You have never seen a public tweet or Facebook post in your life? You've never seen news sites online with Twitter or Facebook posts linked as part of the story they're reporting?

I'm an old fogey.  I know nothing about tweets and Facebook. 

Now, I get emails that are advertisements and promotions every day.  However, that doesn't mean that Verizon Wireless or Comcast my ICP can read my private emails or messages.  Can't tweets be sent privately?  Likewise Facebook communications.  In other words, the administrator can censor public posts.  But private messages and tweets are off-limits legally?  Would and could that work? Or are the sites set up so you can't do that? WOuld it be legal for Congress to set up rules to that effect without violating constitutional protections?

Let me ask another related question.  Leaving aside the fact that sites are privately owned, like Verizon or Comcast, would you want to see more private communication not seen by the management of these companies.  There're a lot of separate complaints about how these companies use our private conversations to sell us things and listen in to our thoughts knowing our every move.  Wouldn't it be beneficial for society to reduce this invasion of our privacy?  Why should Twitter or Facebook interfere with my political positions or positions on anything.  What's to stop them from saying any comments on anti-gay or pro-gay will be deleted.  There's a huge opening for interfering with open communications and free speech for people as these companies have huge power to interfere.  Stopping the political thought of one group of people over another is just plain wrong. I don't see them being able to do that as a good thing.  This is not LuLA with a few members.  We're talking about companies that control billions of people worldwide and huge power to abuse.  Don;t you see that as a problem?

[jeremyrh]

  Leaving tomorrow for two weeks of travel.

What could possibly go wrong.

[TechTalk]

Anyway, getting ready to risk it for the brisket, and Chicago deep dish pizza.  Leaving tomorrow for two weeks of travel.

Like I said to you once before, I might enjoy sitting down for a good meal and glass of wine with you because there's a lot more to life than politics. There's a million things to talk about other than politics and many are just as important. We may disagree on nearly everything political, but I respect your integrity on the issue of assaulting the Capitol—putting country above politics.

[TechTalk]

Don;t [Don't] you see that as a problem?

No.

[Alan Klein]

Alan, he disgraced himself and the country.  Up until today my opinion was to ride it out until Jan 20th, but now that it is coming to light Pence had to supersede Trump and order the national guard himself, he has clearly abdicated his duty as president. 

I am for the immediate removal of Trump either by resignation or impeachment. 

Furthermore, we can not justify these actions by pointing to the immorality of the opposing side of not denouncing their political violence last summer and fall.  Doing so only decreases our standing.  We should not allow them to forget how morally bereft they are, but, still, it is not a justification for this past Wednesday. 

Now, this is not to say we abandon all the great policy of the last four years nor retreat back into choosing politeness over truth telling.  I plan on fighting just as vehemently for conservative values. 

Anyway, getting ready to risk it for the brisket, and Chicago deep dish pizza.  Leaving tomorrow for two weeks of travel. 

If Trump had a hand in telling these people to enter the capitol, I would agree with you.  I just don't think that happened.  Rather, these jerk demonstrators got carried away and did it on their own.

As far as ordering the National Guard, my understanding was that the Commander of the Capitol Police was offered their services prior to the demonstration.  He refused.  That's one of the reasons he was forced to resign.  I'm not jumping to conclusions because the news is so distorted all the time.  I surprised you're taking it at face value.

[jeremyrh]

I'm an old fogey.  I know nothing about tweets and Facebook. 

Let me ask another related question.  Leaving aside the fact that sites are privately owned, like Verizon or Comcast, would you want to see more private communication not seen by the management of these companies.  There're a lot of separate complaints about how these companies use our private conversations to sell us things and listen in to our thoughts knowing our every move.  Wouldn't it be beneficial for society to reduce this invasion of our privacy?  Why should Twitter or Facebook interfere with my political positions or positions on anything.  What's to stop them from saying any comments on anti-gay or pro-gay will be deleted.  There's a huge opening for interfering with open communications and free speech for people as these companies have huge power to interfere.  Stopping the political thought of one group of people over another is just plain wrong. I don't see them being able to do that as a good thing.  This is not LuLA with a few members.  We're talking about companies that control billions of people worldwide and huge power to abuse.  Don;t you see that as a problem?

Yes it's a huge problem and the role of Facebook in manipulation of democracies has been much in the news. I'm shocked that you aren't aware of this.

[TechTalk]

the news is so distorted all the time.

Unfortunately, you never consider the possibility that the distortion might lie with the person on the receiving end of the news due to viewing it thru a very narrow frame of reference and resistance to whatever doesn't fit inside that frame.

[Alan Klein]

No.

Well, a lot of people on social media find the tracking of their every move, what they buy, etc. an invasion of privacy.  Your not caring I think is a rare position.  So now you're agreeing that owners of these services should be allowed to make political decisions as to what people can say?  I'm not talking about using vile language or suggesting we overthrow the government.  I'm talking about plain ordinary political positions.  Twitter and Facebook are huge and have become the public square.  If these outlets can affect political outcomes due to their unique power, that's a concern to many people.  Next time it could be your guy that is shut down.

[Alan Klein]

Unfortunately, you never consider the possibility that the distortion might lie with the person on the receiving end of the news due to viewing it thru a very narrow frame of reference and resistance to whatever doesn't fit inside that frame.

There's so much bias in the news, it's hard to know what is the truth.  The poor public gets snippets and headlines that are politically and biasly written.  That's complicated by what you say that we go into the position already believing certain things.  But that is true on all sides.  We're all guilty of prejudices.  Which is the better camera?  Nikon or Canon? Then we go on presenting facts to support our position.  We've been doing that for 279 pages. No one's mind has changed in all that time.