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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 1293463 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4620 on: December 20, 2020, 05:24:02 pm »

I'm sticking with my position that this will turn out to be a nothing-burger, and that in a month or two, we'll hear no more about it. I will point out CISA may get a big win out of this.
Fine, stick to your position which AFAIK, isn't based on anything experts on this hack have provided.
CISA could be said to get a big win out of their data showing the last election was the most secure ever.
And interesting that CISA, a new government agency under Trump has stated both of these events as they have. They must be filled with deep state bad guys.
And then there's what the security of state said, another Trump appointee.

There are these data points too:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55386947
US cyber-attack: Around 50 firms 'genuinely impacted' by massive breach

Microsoft president Brad Smith, the formulation is clear: “This latest cyber-assault is effectively an attack on the United States and its government and other critical institutions, including security firms,”

Nuclear weapons agency breached amid massive cyber onslaught
Hackers accessed systems at the National Nuclear Security Administration, which maintains the U.S. nuclear weapons stockpile.


There's far more. But at this point, I see no evidence of a nothing-burger; provide yours.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4621 on: December 20, 2020, 05:28:14 pm »

I am not going to take a position because I still don't know what SolarWinds' software does, despite my ten minute effort to figure it out before giving up because it was hopeless.
My albeit limited understanding is, it's used to update software on many users systems, government and commercial. The analogy I heard was akin to you going to sleep with your iPhone or Mac set to auto update. You believe that Apple is updating your OS or software app's, they are but in this case, the SolarWinds software was itself 'hacked' into this upgrade protocol, it was a trojan horse. You and I assume that Apple or other software updates do just that without harm. So did so many customers of SolarWinds. They had no idea their product was hacked as a trojan horse directed at so many of their customers.
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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4622 on: December 20, 2020, 05:39:20 pm »

If it only penetrated unclassified systems, does this mean that that the Russians got millions or possibly billions of routine government proceedings? Maybe they could call us up and tell us why the government doesn't work anymore.
If only indeed: 'we' don't know yet and there are implications (an attack on our systems) above and beyond the issue being classified or not. It will take a LOT of time, more than the few months you say you'll wait for all the data to explain what happened:

https://www.businessinsider.in/tech/news/the-solarwinds-hack-was-in-place-for-months-but-cybersecurity-experts-say-it-will-take-years-to-sort-out/articleshow/79797205.cms
The SolarWinds hack was in place for months, but cybersecurity experts say it will take years to sort out
Thousands of companies and government agencies may have been compromised by the SolarWinds hack.
Experts say it could take some of those groups years to figure out the extent of the cyberattack and what data, if any, was actually stolen.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4623 on: December 20, 2020, 05:43:33 pm »

If I were in charge, I'd tell the CIA or CISA or whoever the hell, to find the best hackers in the USA and pay them to launch denial of service attacks on every Russian web site, foreign hacker farm, organized crime data farms and to keep it up until they say uncle. We'll never catch them doing it to us, or we would have by now, but surely we can wave a big stick at them instead.

That's not a half bad plot for some Hollywood superhero movie, isn't it?

Are customers allowed to sue Apple, Amazon, etc., when they have data breaches and customer data is compromised?



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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4624 on: December 20, 2020, 05:53:31 pm »

It is most definitely NOT a nothing burger. For a more informative take, you might try these articles.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/12/only-an-elite-few-solarwinds-hack-victims-received-follow-on-attacks/

The hack on SolarWinds and its backdooring of 18,000 servers was only the attack’s first phase, one that was done only to zero-in on the targets of interest. These crème de la crème organizations were likely the sole purpose for the entire operation, which lasted for at least nine months, and possibly much longer.

The SolarWinds hack is shaping up as one of the worst espionage hacks of the past decade if not of all time. The tradecraft and pinpoint accuracy is nothing short of astounding. As those elite victims over the next weeks unravel what the second stage did to their networks, this story is likely to go into hyperdrive.

https://webcache.google.com/slate.com/SolarWinds Hack Is Unlike Anything We Have Ever Seen Before

This means that the set of potential victims is not just (just!) the 18,000 SolarWinds customers who may have downloaded the compromised updates, but also all of those 18,000 organizations’ customers, and potentially the clients of those second-order organizations as well—and so on. So when I say the SolarWinds cyberespionage campaign will last years, I don’t just mean, as I usually do, that figuring out liability and settling costs and carrying out investigations will take years (though that is certainly true here). The actual, active theft of information from protected networks due to this breach will last years.

And a look at the customers running their software...

https://web.archive.org/web/20201214065921/https://www.solarwinds.com/company/customers
« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 06:08:37 pm by TechTalk »
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4625 on: December 20, 2020, 05:58:20 pm »

If I were in charge, I'd tell the CIA or CISA or whoever the hell, to find the best hackers in the USA and pay them to launch denial of service attacks on every Russian web site, foreign hacker farm, organized crime data farms and to keep it up until they say uncle. We'll never catch them doing it to us, or we would have by now, but surely we can wave a big stick at them instead.

That would work, but it is not a big secret how to do it, so Russia would do it to us too, and then the whole world would be in addiction recovery facilities because they couldn't check their Facebook page, so all the economies would tank. Remember in War of the Worlds when the alien spaceships were shooting those heat rays? They were taking out the Earth's networks. Some people got vaporized, but it was the networks they were after. At least I think so, but maybe that part was in the book. Anyway, do you remember how the Earth defeated the aliens? The aliens didn't have any immunity and died because they caught all the Earth's deadly diseases. It was probably the coronavirus that got most of them. The alien's herd immunity plan didn't exactly pan out. That's how I know that Swedish epidemiologists haven't see the movie. They were probably too busy watching all those impenetrable Igmar Bergman films. What were they all about?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2020, 02:49:30 pm by faberryman »
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John Camp

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4626 on: December 20, 2020, 05:58:47 pm »

Fine, stick to your position which AFAIK, isn't based on anything experts on this hack have provided.
CISA could be said to get a big win out of their data showing the last election was the most secure ever.
And interesting that CISA, a new government agency under Trump has stated both of these events as they have. They must be filled with deep state bad guys.
And then there's what the security of state said, another Trump appointee.

There are these data points too:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55386947
US cyber-attack: Around 50 firms 'genuinely impacted' by massive breach

Microsoft president Brad Smith, the formulation is clear: “This latest cyber-assault is effectively an attack on the United States and its government and other critical institutions, including security firms,”

Nuclear weapons agency breached amid massive cyber onslaught
Hackers accessed systems at the National Nuclear Security Administration, which maintains the U.S. nuclear weapons stockpile.


There's far more. But at this point, I see no evidence of a nothing-burger; provide yours.

I have no evidence. I concede that you may very well be correct. All I see now is a lot of people running around shouting about how terrible it is, and it's exactly those people who would benefit from how terrible it is. Let's pour a few more billions into those systems to make sure it doesn't happen again. Perhaps that'd overcooked cynicism, but a few words keep creeping out...like there have been no classified systems penetrated. Of course, that could be deliberate misinformation to keep people from panicking.

Nobody really wants to talk about what could be called cynical views of people who are doing hard jobs, but some of us (journos) can't help it.

--Dr. Fauci seems like a great guy who provides us with serious information and some comfort. Dr. Fauci is in his glory and when it all passes, and nobody wants to have him on TV any more, he may secretly wish that it had all lasted a little longer. The same is true with all the epidemiologists we see on CNN, CNBC and FOX night after night. In six months, they'll be back in their burrows. Will they be hoping from another pandemic? Hmm.

--The talking heads on CNN and CNBC apparently despised Trump, and quite rightfully so, as the biggest asshole to come over the American horizon at least since the Civil War.  When he is finally gone and fading from public attention, they may well wish to be back in the good old days when everybody was hanging on the words of Anderson Cooper and his fellows, bringing us the latest disaster. Won't happen when they're back to reporting chicken thefts. Same is true with FOX, but from the opposite direction -- they were considered the Great Influencers. They will definitely miss Trump, no matter how much damage they knew he was doing.

Cynical views, but possibly not incorrect.

What I would like to see from the government, instead of bunch of people running around throwing paper in the air, is simple examples. "Yes. They penetrated the nuclear safety agency. They know now how to run our nuclear plants out of control and kill the West Coast. We're shutting those plants down until the software can be repaired." "Yes, they penetrated the Los Alamos National Laboratory and messed with our recipes for making nuclear cores. We're taking the lab offline until we're sure that hasn't happened." "Yes, they penetrated critical flight control systems in the US and could crash planes if they wished. We're grounding passenger planes until we know we can keep them out."

But that's not what we're hearing. What we're hearing is that they penetrated a lot of systems. We're not hearing that they did any damage. Or even that they could do any damage. All I'd like is some examples, not that they downloaded a bunch of stuff that just maybe, nobody should care about.

I know a guy who graduated from Cal Tech and knows a lot about computers, who told me once that it is difficult for the US to counter small-nation penetrations of our many and various computer systems simply because we're such a large target, and the costs of attacking us are so small. So North Korea causes something bad to happen to a power plant. Can we even prove it? Maybe it was actually Nigeria, pissed because we banned their princes from the Internet. So our best tactic is to threaten retaliation, to attempt to secure our systems as best we can, to work for international cooperation in isolating rogue nations, etc. But the same is true of Russia. They are almost as vulnerable as we are. Crash a plane and see another Chernobyl? Take out a power plant, see all your railroads delivering Moscow's food to the borderlands? So, Russia did it. We're doing it to Russia. Same-ol' same-ol' Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD.)

You may be right, but I'm still betting that in two months, we'll hear no more about it.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4627 on: December 20, 2020, 06:05:12 pm »

I am not going to take a position because I still don't know what SolarWinds' software does, despite my ten minute effort to figure it out before giving up because it was hopeless. It was like you asked some guy what he does for a living and he replies he is a consultant. The only thing I have heard so far is that governmental and business networks have been penetrated, which sounds vaguely sexual, yet nobody has said what they, whoever they are, did after they penetrated said networks. I mean if they just looked around and said to themselves they had no idea that things were so screwed up and left, no harm, no foul. Maybe if CISA gave us some alarming examples of the stuff they could have gotten or done, it would raise my anxiety level. (I guess here would be a good time to admit that maybe someone has said all the alarming stuff they did after they penetrated said networks, but since I have only read a couple of articles I haven't gotten that far yet.) And why give CISA more money. Weren't they the guys who were supposed to be on top of this stuff so it didn't happen? I guess their defense is that they were underfunded, and it was Congress's fault for not giving them enough money to do their job right. But that is how it goes I guess; screw up and get more money. I wish I had learned that lesson earlier in life. I wouldn't have been nearly so conscientious.

Solarwind software is just one of the network monitoring and security tools used by various IT departments. The irony is that this type of software should actually prevent any external hacking. So back to the drawing board. Maybe next time, those companies could buy their security software directly from Kaspersky Lab in Moscow.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4628 on: December 20, 2020, 06:16:24 pm »

Microsoft president Brad Smith, the formulation is clear: “This latest cyber-assault is effectively an attack on the United States and its government and other critical institutions, including security firms,”

Not so different from NSA monitoring telephone calls of 35 world leaders in 2013 and prior years. Hopefully, they refined and secured their listening methods by now.
Microsoft should look at their own software and not allow external programs to access the operating system kernel.
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John Camp

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4629 on: December 20, 2020, 06:18:18 pm »

It is most definitely NOT a nothing burger. For a more informative take, you might try these articles.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/12/only-an-elite-few-solarwinds-hack-victims-received-follow-on-attacks/

The hack on SolarWinds and its backdooring of 18,000 servers was only the attack’s first phase, one that was done only to zero-in on the targets of interest. These crème de la crème organizations were likely the sole purpose for the entire operation, which lasted for at least nine months, and possibly much longer.

The SolarWinds hack is shaping up as one of the worst espionage hacks of the past decade if not of all time. The tradecraft and pinpoint accuracy is nothing short of astounding. As those elite victims over the next weeks unravel what the second stage did to their networks, this story is likely to go into hyperdrive.

https://webcache.google.com/slate.com/SolarWinds Hack Is Unlike Anything We Have Ever Seen Before

This means that the set of potential victims is not just (just!) the 18,000 SolarWinds customers who may have downloaded the compromised updates, but also all of those 18,000 organizations’ customers, and potentially the clients of those second-order organizations as well—and so on. So when I say the SolarWinds cyberespionage campaign will last years, I don’t just mean, as I usually do, that figuring out liability and settling costs and carrying out investigations will take years (though that is certainly true here). The actual, active theft of information from protected networks due to this breach will last years.

And a look at the customers running their software...

https://web.archive.org/web/20201214065921/https://www.solarwinds.com/company/customers

I read your links. I would suggest that for every assertion in every one of them, you ask, "So what?" and then think about it. Think about the fact that everybody is screaming "18,000 penetrated" and then (in one of your links) only 40 follow-up attacks. Not 18,000 follow-up attacks, but 40. Instead of just a panicked list of companies that use the software (most of which haven't been attacked in a followup,) ask, "So What?" So they penetrated Ford Motors. So they're going to do what, damage our precious Ford F-150s? Seriously, folks, I really do think most of what we're seeing on this attack is hot air and bullshit, because it has that feel about it, and I dealt with that feel, professionally, for a couple of decades. I may be wrong. I admit it. But I don't think so. I'll repost a couple of these comments in February and March; we can further discuss all the terrible disasters this raid has inflicted at that time, when we actually know more.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4630 on: December 20, 2020, 07:05:21 pm »

You may be right, but I'm still betting that in two months, we'll hear no more about it.
I'm not right or wrong per se, I'm concerned based on what I've read from many experts on this hack.
You seem to think it's a nothing burger.
So let's setup that bet because I'm pretty sure Joe's not getting that bottle of wine I offered in the last bet. What you got to offer in two months, we'll hear no more about it? D
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4631 on: December 20, 2020, 07:08:45 pm »

Solarwind software is just one of the network monitoring and security tools used by various IT departments. The irony is that this type of software should actually prevent any external hacking.
Yes, and the experts reporting on this hack suggest that the hack was super sophisticated and shows them, cyber fingerprints from the Russians.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4632 on: December 20, 2020, 08:01:25 pm »

Solarwind software is just one of the network monitoring and security tools used by various IT departments. The irony is that this type of software should actually prevent any external hacking. So back to the drawing board. Maybe next time, those companies could buy their security software directly from Kaspersky Lab in Moscow.
I use Kaspersky virus software on my desktop at home.  Haven't had a shutdown or infection in about six years.  I use to have McAfee and Norton before that and always had such bad infections I had to replace the computers.  I figure with Kaspersky the Russians are the best at penetrating other's computers so know how to stop it the best as well. 

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4633 on: December 20, 2020, 08:03:32 pm »

Not so different from NSA monitoring telephone calls of 35 world leaders in 2013 and prior years. Hopefully, they refined and secured their listening methods by now.
Microsoft should look at their own software and not allow external programs to access the operating system kernel.
It's not the monitoring that's the problem.  It's the armed drones that are flying around.

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4634 on: December 20, 2020, 08:05:34 pm »

I read your links. I would suggest that for every assertion in every one of them, you ask, "So what?" and then think about it. Think about the fact that everybody is screaming "18,000 penetrated" and then (in one of your links) only 40 follow-up attacks. Not 18,000 follow-up attacks, but 40. Instead of just a panicked list of companies that use the software (most of which haven't been attacked in a followup,) ask, "So What?" So they penetrated Ford Motors. So they're going to do what, damage our precious Ford F-150s? Seriously, folks, I really do think most of what we're seeing on this attack is hot air and bullshit, because it has that feel about it, and I dealt with that feel, professionally, for a couple of decades. I may be wrong. I admit it. But I don't think so. I'll repost a couple of these comments in February and March; we can further discuss all the terrible disasters this raid has inflicted at that time, when we actually know more.
We're taking our eye off the ball.  It's the Chinese who are the problem, not the Russians. 

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4635 on: December 20, 2020, 08:17:20 pm »

We're taking our eye off the ball.  It's the Chinese who are the problem, not the Russians.

Of course. Trump said it so it must be true. Thirty one more days. Let me just point out that thinking it is Russia or it is China is that old logical fallacy of false dilemma. It could be one or the other, or it could be neither, or it be could be both. It could be a whole lot of others too. Expand your mind. And don't forget about the 400 pound guy Trump talks about to divert our attention from Russia.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2020, 05:42:50 pm by faberryman »
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4636 on: December 20, 2020, 08:58:28 pm »

We're taking our eye off the ball.  It's the Chinese who are the problem, not the Russians.
At yes, what Trump says makes the bubble stronger and thicker. And now that he seems to hate Fox, Alan must have missed:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/world/how-much-of-the-united-states-does-china-really-own.amp
Quote
How much of the United States does China really own?
China has slowly been buying big in America, dominating the global supply chain in an array of industries
Can we have a symbiotic relationship and if not, now what?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4637 on: December 20, 2020, 10:09:58 pm »

Yes, and the experts reporting on this hack suggest that the hack was super sophisticated and shows them, cyber fingerprints from the Russians.

How exactly do you distinguish cyber fingerprints from the Russians from cyber fingerprints that were made to look like they are Russian?

With all the supposed sophistication why stop short of making it look like the Chinese did it?

Cheers,
Bernard

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4638 on: December 20, 2020, 10:38:39 pm »

That would work, but it is not a big secret how to do it, so Russia would do it to us too, and then the whole world would be in addiction recovery facilities because they couldn't check their Facebook page, so all the economies would tank. Remember in War of the Worlds when the alien spaceships were shooting those heat rays? They were taking out the Earth's networks. Some people got vaporized, but it was the networks they were after. At least I think so, but maybe that part was in the book. Anyway, do you remember how the Earth defeated the aliens? The aliens didn't have any immunity and died because they caught all the Earth's deadly diseases. It was probably the coronavirus that got most of them. The alien's herd immunity plan didn't exactly pan out. That's how I know that Swedish epidemiologists didn't see the movie. They were probably too busy watching all those impenetrable Igmar Bergman films. What were they all about?

I tried sitting through a couple of Bergman once movies but failed. Maybe I'm too shallow. I never saw War of the Worlds, not a fan of sci-fi or super hero stuff. I liked Batman in comic books though.

Remember the Kurt Vonnegut novel about Ice-9, that form of ice that would spread to all the earth's water and everything would come to a frozen standstill. I used to kid that's why we needed faster and faster processors in our desktops and laptops, we needed the horsepower so the virus checkers could do their work and leave enough processor cycles left over to send emails and stuff. Then, one day some hacker would inject our systems with one virus too many, and the entire internet would come to a standstill. Like the permanent gridlock you'd get if you let too many cars onto an island then shut down the bridges.

I was getting the feeling this week that the Trump/Rudy show was winding down. That maybe we had passed peak crazy. Then I saw this headline https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/betsy-devos-warns-that-biden-will-pick-education-secretary-with-background-in-education?fbclid=IwAR0a9wnX4k-AtD0b56tXi7LQuNV_3qCjgQEv4J0mnFq8J1zBiLWk0z8zO2U, so there might still be some gasoline left in the tank.

Speaking of gasoline and oil, I enjoyed this opinion piece by Gwynne Dyer, http://gwynnedyer.com/2020/what-does-oil-rich-mean-daddy/. The notion that the leaders of Israel and the USA should be rubbing shoulders with Saudi's MBS left me a little cold.

MBS came up in a CBC IDEAS podcast, part 4 of the 2020 Massey Lectures https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-23-ideas/clip/15808371-cbc-massey-lecture-4-a-great-leap. The Massey Lectures this year are all about our internet immersion but part 4 is about how authoritarian powers can use social media to track down and harm activists. Turns out it's much cheaper than hiring thugs to go out and follow people. J. Edgar Hoover would have loved the internet.

Have a good week.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #4639 on: December 20, 2020, 10:40:52 pm »

How exactly do you distinguish cyber fingerprints from the Russians from cyber fingerprints that were made to look like they are Russian?

With all the supposed sophistication why stop short of making it look like the Chinese did it?

Cheers,
Bernard

Very likely they were able to trace the attacker's home location to some IP addresses in Russia.
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