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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 1365233 times)

LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2000 on: November 21, 2020, 11:32:39 am »

Many people here always are talking about America and knocking it as if it was an outlier. The point I'm making about Canada's escalating rate is that no one has gotten this right at least in the Western world.  A little humility from the America knockers is called for.   As an American, why don't you stand up for your own country.  That's disgusting.

Canada has 299 deaths per million, whereas USA has 785 deaths per million. That's 2.6 times worse.
In other words, if USA could lower their death rates in the same way as Canada, USA would incur only 100,000 deaths instead of 260,000. 160,000 lives could have been saved!
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2001 on: November 21, 2020, 11:39:14 am »

Nice try. Yes, the certification dates have passed in 7 states, but no word about if certification took actually place in those 7 states yet.
Update while one struggle to take a picture: Georgia certified the results for Biden; Trump loses 28 and counting, law suites. Thousands die a day from Covid-19 while President plays golf (no fiddle for this guy).
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2002 on: November 21, 2020, 11:49:59 am »

You stand up when you think there is something to stand up to. What in your mind do you think how the USA has handled the virus deserves standing up to? It's the richest country in the world that has the biggest healthcare budget...yet it leads the world in infections and deaths. I don't see anything worth standing up for...lots to criticize.
But other countries aren't doing so well either. Is everyone stupid?  Maybe it's the nature of the problem.  A safe environment works counter to an operating economy.  There's no way to split the baby. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2003 on: November 21, 2020, 11:54:26 am »

Always showing examples of everyone else rather than your leader Chetos. Your "what abouts" are just excuses for the disasterous effort by Chetos in handling this virus.
The "what about" shows that everyone has the same problem in keeping the cases down and running a good economy at the same time.  With all the rules and regulations, the stats in California are going over the top.  It's obvious you single out Trump for political reasons by ignoring Democratic leaders.  Who are you going to blame on Jan21st?

The election is over. 

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2004 on: November 21, 2020, 11:54:50 am »

But other countries aren't doing so well either. Is everyone stupid?
Everyone no. Those speaking for everyone or others; quite stupid. Those refusing facts, just about masks; massively stupid:
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chez

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2005 on: November 21, 2020, 11:55:03 am »

But other countries aren't doing so well either. Is everyone stupid?  Maybe it's the nature of the problem.  A safe environment works counter to an operating economy.  There's no way to split the baby.

Sure other countries are having problems but nothing like the USA given the USA's stature in the world. I'd expect the US to lead in the fight against the virus...but instead it's in a position where people like you need to continue to make excuses and "what about's".
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2006 on: November 21, 2020, 11:55:54 am »

Update while one struggle to take a picture: Georgia certified the results for Biden; Trump loses 28 and counting, law suites. Thousands die a day from Covid-19 while President plays golf (no fiddle for this guy).

Whatever happened to that guy that posted "I don't think you want me to get on the topic of politics since you couldn't handle that." and "You couldn't handle it; don't be a masochist!"? I was looking forward to seeing some remarkably robust political debating skills and all that I've seen, so far, is an empty suit serving up some weak tea.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2007 on: November 21, 2020, 11:57:37 am »

The "what about" shows that everyone has the same problem in keeping the cases down and running a good economy at the same time. 
Everyone no and not to the same level. Your problem is thinking and speaking for everyone when just doing so for yourself is an demonstrable struggle.  :o
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2008 on: November 21, 2020, 11:57:49 am »

But other countries aren't doing so well either.

What about other countries?

"Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument.[1][2][3]

Whataboutism is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.[4][5][6] When criticisms were leveled at the Soviet Union during the Cold War, the Soviet response would often be "What about ..." followed by instancing of an event or situation in the Western world.[7][8][9] According to Russian writer, chess grandmaster and political activist Garry Kasparov, it is a word that was coined to describe the frequent use of a rhetorical diversion by Soviet apologists and dictators, who would counter charges of their oppression, "massacres, gulags, and forced deportations" by invoking American slavery, racism, lynchings, etc.[10] Whataboutism has been used by other politicians and countries as well."
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 12:17:14 pm by faberryman »
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chez

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2009 on: November 21, 2020, 12:00:39 pm »

The "what about" shows that everyone has the same problem in keeping the cases down and running a good economy at the same time.  With all the rules and regulations, the stats in California are going over the top.  It's obvious you single out Trump for political reasons by ignoring Democratic leaders.  Who are you going to blame on Jan21st?

The election is over.

Yes, every country ( well there are quite a few Asian countries under control ) that are having issues keeping the virus under control...that's not the problem. The problem is how Trump has handled the issue. Where is his leadership? Why does he put down people wearing masks as being weak? Why does he encourage mass gatherings without social distancing and no masks? Why does he egg on the people of Democratic run states to not listen to a lockdown and go out with life as if there was no virus.

Surely Alan even you cannot support Chetos handling of the virus.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2010 on: November 21, 2020, 12:05:22 pm »

Surely Alan even you cannot support Chetos handling of the virus.
Oh surely he will.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2011 on: November 21, 2020, 12:10:01 pm »

The most recent Sam Harris Making Sense podcast (about 40 min) titles "Republic of Lies" presents a pretty good summary of the current US social and political situation, https://samharris.org/podcasts/225-republic-lies/. Just an alert for Trumpeteers, don't listen to this, it's not what you want to hear, he doesn't mince words.
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2012 on: November 21, 2020, 12:11:30 pm »

The "what about" shows that everyone has the same problem in keeping the cases down and running a good economy at the same time.

Everyone does not have the same problem. That is simply your refusal to acknowledge facts. Such a position is completely irrational. Most countries are addressing the issue more successfully. The US is the ninth worst country in the world in its COVID response. Only Bahrain, Qatar, Israel, Panama, Kuwait, Peru, Armenia, and Chile have more deaths per million in population. The ninth worst country in the world. Think about it. The ninth worst country in the world.

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-us-coronavirus-outbreak-compares-to-other-countries-charts-2020-10
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 12:22:43 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2013 on: November 21, 2020, 12:13:02 pm »

Canada has 299 deaths per million, whereas USA has 785 deaths per million. That's 2.6 times worse.
In other words, if USA could lower their death rates in the same way as Canada, USA would incur only 100,000 deaths instead of 260,000. 160,000 lives could have been saved!
If you check the article I linked to earlier, it says Canada's could go up to 20,000 a day soon.  That's about 180,000 equivalent if adjusted for population very comparable to America's case statistics.  Are we testing the same? 

Also, the rules in Canada don't seem much different than here. 

Here are comparison rates for cases.  The US is in the middle.  If you want to stay healthy move to Fiji or Madagascar.  Canada seems to be doing better than Mozambique but not as good as Malasia.  America's doing better than in South Africa.  But then they have more shark attacks.  :)
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/testing/international-comparison

We also test more so we'll find more cases.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-daily-covid-19-tests-per-thousand?tab=table&time=2020-02-18..latest

chez

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2014 on: November 21, 2020, 12:21:12 pm »

If you check the article I linked to earlier, it says Canada's could go up to 20,000 a day soon.  That's about 180,000 equivalent if adjusted for population very comparable to America's case statistics.  Are we testing the same? 

Also, the rules in Canada don't seem much different than here. 

Here are comparison rates for cases.  The US is in the middle.  If you want to stay healthy move to Fiji or Madagascar.  Canada seems to be doing better than Mozambique but not as good as Malasia.  America's doing better than in South Africa.  But then they have more shark attacks.  :)
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/testing/international-comparison

We also test more so we'll find more cases.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-daily-covid-19-tests-per-thousand?tab=table&time=2020-02-18..latest

Yes, testing is important...but it's the death rate that is the ultimate figure to follow. You cannot escape death by not testing...it's the equalizer...and the USA leads the industrialized world in deaths / million people.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2015 on: November 21, 2020, 12:24:44 pm »

But other countries aren't doing so well either. Is everyone stupid?  Maybe it's the nature of the problem.  A safe environment works counter to an operating economy.  There's no way to split the baby.

Jurisdictions that opened up too quickly without proper public health measures in place are showing an increase in infections with subsequent completely predictable results. None of this is new, none of this in unexpected, public health authorities have been warning people for months. We're seeing the results of hubris and false sense of security. No one is immune from making dumb moves. But to continue to claim that the US is not especially hard hit is wilful blindness.

You seem to interpret everything as a personal attack, which is odd in relation to Trump, because one of his best points, which you personally stated on numerous occasions, was that he told it like is. But apparently that's only ok if you think he's telling you what you want to hear. To criticize the US's woeful response should be a call to action, but it seems as if it's being interpreted as an attack. It's close to being pretty self-evident that reaction is counter-productive.

As many others have often stated, the virus doesn't care about politics, it spreads the way it spreads. But if you want to frame the entire discussion in terms of individual rights instead of public health, that's fine, just please stop trying to convince yourself and others that the economy benefits from that because I'm not seeing any evidence of that.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2016 on: November 21, 2020, 12:25:53 pm »

Yes, every country ( well there are quite a few Asian countries under control ) that are having issues keeping the virus under control...that's not the problem. The problem is how Trump has handled the issue. Where is his leadership? Why does he put down people wearing masks as being weak? Why does he encourage mass gatherings without social distancing and no masks? Why does he egg on the people of Democratic run states to not listen to a lockdown and go out with life as if there was no virus.

Surely Alan even you cannot support Chetos handling of the virus.
Trump did the best he could.  A lot of info was not available.  But he shut down China's travel to the USA early when Biden didn't think it was necessary.  He started warp speed and everyone laughed at him when he said we'd have vaccines by the end of the year.  So here were are with three of them, two at 95% effectiveness.  We were short PPE including ventilators and he fixed that problem by sending subsequent spare capacity to other countries.  When NYC and other west coast cities didn't have enough hospital space, he provided hospital ships and had the Amry build temporary hospitals. 

The day to day rules are not in the Federal government's prerogative.  These are mandated by each of the fifty governors. They're the ones responsible for opening and closing businesses, quarantining other states, and setting standards.  I'm a Trump supporter but I wear a mask.  Everyone has to make their own decisions.  Why did Democrat Gov Newsom not wear a mask against his own rules?  I guess he must be secretly a Trump supporter.  :)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2017 on: November 21, 2020, 12:29:24 pm »

Yes, testing is important...but it's the death rate that is the ultimate figure to follow. You cannot escape death by not testing...it's the equalizer...and the USA leads the industrialized world in deaths / million people.
But the statistics are changing.  Europe and Canada are on a tear. Let's check them again in a month, a year.  Remember, it's not over until the fat lady sings. 

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2018 on: November 21, 2020, 12:30:12 pm »

Trump did the best he could. 

That may be too true.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #2019 on: November 21, 2020, 12:36:59 pm »

Jurisdictions that opened up too quickly without proper public health measures in place are showing an increase in infections with subsequent completely predictable results. None of this is new, none of this in unexpected, public health authorities have been warning people for months. We're seeing the results of hubris and false sense of security. No one is immune from making dumb moves. But to continue to claim that the US is not especially hard hit is wilful blindness.

You seem to interpret everything as a personal attack, which is odd in relation to Trump, because one of his best points, which you personally stated on numerous occasions, was that he told it like is. But apparently that's only ok if you think he's telling you what you want to hear. To criticize the US's woeful response should be a call to action, but it seems as if it's being interpreted as an attack. It's close to being pretty self-evident that reaction is counter-productive.

As many others have often stated, the virus doesn't care about politics, it spreads the way it spreads. But if you want to frame the entire discussion in terms of individual rights instead of public health, that's fine, just please stop trying to convince yourself and others that the economy benefits from that because I'm not seeing any evidence of that.
I've said over and over that reducing the spread and a good economy are working opposite to each other.  Every governor is trying to split the baby and it isn't working.  Right now, none of them are willing to shut down their economies totally again.  All their efforts are fig leaf attempts to show they're doing something.  But they have no control.  It's an illusion.  If you got a better plan, what is it? 
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