Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Alan Klein]

Since when?

The race card is being played in Atlanta with the cancellation of the All-star baseball game and Coca Cola and other businesses surrendering to "cancel culture" supported by Democrats. It's all about political power and money, shakedowns of business, etc.  This has been going on for decades and it's worse than ever.

[TechTalk]

I don't know what question you're answering, but it wasn't mine.

[Alan Klein]

I don't know what question you're answering, but it wasn't mine.

You were claiming white played the race card.  I'm posting that here they aren't. 

[TechTalk]

I didn't make a claim; you did.

Whites aren't playing the race card.

I asked a question. Since when?

[Robert Roaldi]

The race card is being played in Atlanta with the cancellation of the All-star baseball game and Coca Cola and other businesses surrendering to "cancel culture" supported by Democrats. It's all about political power and money, shakedowns of business, etc.  This has been going on for decades and it's worse than ever.

You lost me. Are they trying to cancel baseball or Coca-Cola? What does an all-star game have to do with race or cancel culture. I must have missed something but I've never followed baseball.

[Robert Roaldi]

‘Tis I who owes you a most sincere apology.
I totally misread the context and will delete my post.

No worries. It's hard keeping track of all the sub-threads.

[dreed]

Illegality in elections is nothing new.  Jokes about the dead voting are not a joke.

But the claims that the dead voting makes a difference is a joke.

As per William Barr's comment, there was no evidence of systemic election fraud that would have altered the outcome of the election. ie the fraud is in the rounding errors. That is consistent with electoral fraud elsewhere and it will never go away. Just as some people drink and drive or murder people, there will be people commiting fraud in elections.

There is not and never has been any evidence that fraud in any election in the USA has influenced the outcome.

There is evidence that changing the rules to make it harder for people to vote changes the turnout of people at elections. The number of people impacted by Georgia's latest "Jim Crow" laws is not a rounding error.

Anyway, you won't believe me because you're married to your beliefs and it would seem "until death do we part". You are convinced that Georgia is doing the right thing and when it flips back to Republican, you'll consider that as proof that Democrat electoral fraud was responsible for the 2020 outcome.

[Alan Klein]

But the claims that the dead voting makes a difference is a joke.

As per William Barr's comment, there was no evidence of systemic election fraud that would have altered the outcome of the election. ie the fraud is in the rounding errors. That is consistent with electoral fraud elsewhere and it will never go away. Just as some people drink and drive or murder people, there will be people commiting fraud in elections.

There is not and never has been any evidence that fraud in any election in the USA has influenced the outcome.

There is evidence that changing the rules to make it harder for people to vote changes the turnout of people at elections. The number of people impacted by Georgia's latest "Jim Crow" laws is not a rounding error.

Anyway, you won't believe me because you're married to your beliefs and it would seem "until death do we part". You are convinced that Georgia is doing the right thing and when it flips back to Republican, you'll consider that as proof that Democrat electoral fraud was responsible for the 2020 outcome.

First off, your statement above in BOLD is not true.  Elections have been cancelled because of fraud.  Remember it's not only presidential elections.  There are congressional, governor, and local legislature and councilmen, judges, sheriffs, etc.  A few votes can make a huge difference especially in smaller elections.  In a presidential election, it only has to happen in one or two swing states because of the electoral process.

Also, if you check as I did some of the violations prosecuted, much of the election fraud has to do with mail-in voting.  From the crimes prosecuted, there are fewer violations at ballot boxes.  I assume that's because you have to be physically present and sign in when you vote in person.

However, it's really easy to harvest illegal ballots sent by mail.  Aggravating that, in the future since the pandemic, there will be very high volumes of mail-in voting.  I believe that it's there that most of the crimes will be done and why we have to have better ways to assure proper handling. 

Here's an example of an election crime prosecuted back in 1999 in PA.  The new HR1 bill sponsored by Democratic congressmen will do away with all identification required on mail-ins and even for in-person voting.  How can you trust a system where there's no control of the voting ballots? States also have to up the punishment for violations.  A slap on the wrist as was done to Murphy below will not stop election fraud. 

The second case in PA in 1993 overthrew a state senatorial election where the senator was removed from office because of voting fraud.  Notice how absentee ballots in black areas were fraudulently obtained. That's what this whole thing is about. It's got nothing to do with disenfranchisement.  So your argument there no elections that are affected is false.  That's just Democrats giving false information and compliant news media going along with a false narrative.


Example #1 "Austin Murphy

Former Congressman Austin Murphy was convicted on one charge of absentee ballot fraud. Murphy forged ballots for senior citizens living in a nursing home, claiming merely to be assisting them in exercising their voting rights. He was sentenced to six months of probation and ordered to perform 50 hours of community service."

Example #2 1993 Philadelphia Special Election

A 1993 special Pennsylvania state senate election was overturned by a federal district court judge due to absentee ballot fraud. This election was important as the senate was evenly divided and the winner would determine which party controlled the senate. Campaign workers for Democratic candidate William Stimson engaged in a massive absentee ballot scheme involving nearly 600 tainted ballots. After a surprising and extraordinary surge in absentee ballots seemed to result in a victory for Stinson, an investigation was undertaken.  Stinson was indicted for his role in the scheme but was not convicted.  Two campaign workers, Ramon Pratt and Barbara Landers, were convicted of misdemeanor offenses.

 

In a related civil suit, however, a federal district court judge determined that Stinson and others engaged in a scheme to steal the election, and Stinson was removed from office.  The scheme primarily targeted Latino and black voters by using intimidation, and deception in order to fraudulently obtain and process absentee ballots in violation of state law. Two Democratic city commissioners, Margaret Tartaglione and Alexander Talmadge, Jr., and an elections supervisor, Dennis Kelly, were also found to have been complicit in allowing the fraud to occur.
https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?combine=&state=PA&year=&case_type=All&fraud_type=All&page=1

[kers]

If there was any fraud during the last Presidential election it would have come out in the hunderds of courtcases that Trump had started. Some states have counted the votes 3 times...  instead it only concluded in how well the system has worked.
To prevent people to vote; to make it so difficult that they see off from voting is a kind of organized systematic fraud.

[dreed]

If there was any fraud during the last Presidential election it would have come out in the hunderds of courtcases that Trump had started. Some states have counted the votes 3 times...  instead it only concluded in how well the system has worked.
To prevent people to vote; to make it so difficult that they see off from voting is a kind of organized systematic fraud.

+1

[dreed]

How can you trust a system where there's no control of the voting ballots?

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/campaigns/upgrading-our-democracy/voter-id/

Evidence from around the world shows that forcing voters to bring photographic ID to the polling station just makes it harder for people to vote – while doing little to increase faith in the integrity of the system. We don’t need to spend millions to put up barriers to people taking part in our democracy.

...

Elections are generally very well run in the UK. In 2019, there were only 34 allegations of people pretending to be someone else at the polling station – that’s 0.000058% of the over 58 million votes cast in all elections that year. There was only one conviction for personation and one caution – the rest either involved no further action or were locally resolved.

[jeremyrh]

[deleted]

Thing is, Alan, that all that flailing over the keyboard was a waste of time. Because what you say has no credibility. Because you're a liar.

[Alan Klein]

If there was any fraud during the last Presidential election it would have come out in the hunderds of courtcases that Trump had started. Some states have counted the votes 3 times...  instead it only concluded in how well the system has worked.
To prevent people to vote; to make it so difficult that they see off from voting is a kind of organized systematic fraud.

There are more elections for other positions.  Election laws affect all voting for governors, Senators, Legislators, Councilmen, Judges, Congressmen, Sheriffs, schools officials, Mayors, etc.  Frankly, it's probably these that have more fraud.  But who knows?  Most fraud goes undetected. 

Here are election fraud in California that resulted in convictions.  We can only guess at how many crooks didn;t get caught.

California Only (there are 49 more states)
2021-2 convictions (so far)
2020-8   "
2019-3   "
2018-1   "
2017-3   "
2016-6   "
I stopped counting.  See the link.
https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?combine=&state=CA&year=&case_type=All&fraud_type=All

Here are a couple:
 
Norman Hall

Norman Hall, of Los Angeles, participated in scheme to give homeless people on Skid Row cash and cigarettes in exchange for fraudulently signing ballot petition initiatives and filling out voter registration forms. These crimes took place during both the 2016 and 2018 election cycles. Hall was charged with circulating a petition with false names, and pleaded guilty. He was sentenced to 1 year in county jail, 3 years of probation, and was ordered to complete 100 hours of community service.

Jentry Jasperson

Jentry Jasperson, of Pacifica, forged signatures for a referendum iniative and paid a $5 fee per signature. She was reported to have forged over 100 signatures, most of which were actual country residents. Peterson was charged with 10 counts of perjury by declaration, 5 counts of identity theft, and 5 counts of signing fictious or forged names to a petition. She pleaded guilty to 2 counts of perjury by declaration, a felony, and was sentenced to 2 years in county jail.

[Alan Klein]

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/campaigns/upgrading-our-democracy/voter-id/

Evidence from around the world shows that forcing voters to bring photographic ID to the polling station just makes it harder for people to vote – while doing little to increase faith in the integrity of the system. We don’t need to spend millions to put up barriers to people taking part in our democracy.

...

Elections are generally very well run in the UK. In 2019, there were only 34 allegations of people pretending to be someone else at the polling station – that’s 0.000058% of the over 58 million votes cast in all elections that year. There was only one conviction for personation and one caution – the rest either involved no further action or were locally resolved.

It's not the in-person voting at the ballot box that is the biggest fraud.  It's the harvesting of mail-in and absentee ballots that can be fraudulently submitted in huge quantities that are the problem. 

See my above post where 100 votes were phoney and another post where 600 votes were illegally submitted by one person in an earlier post.  And that's just the ones they caught.

[James Clark]

It's not the in-person voting at the ballot box that is the biggest fraud.  It's the harvesting of mail-in and absentee ballots that can be fraudulently submitted in huge quantities that are the problem. 

See my above post where 100 votes were phoney and another post where 600 votes were illegally submitted by one person in an earlier post.  And that's just the ones they caught.

Do you think voter fraud was why Donald Trump lost?

[Jonathan Cross]

Alan,

The UK data that Dreed quoted included what we in the UK call postal votes.  We do not seem to suffer from the problems you allege there are in the US.  We are great believers in universal suffrage; our ancestors fought long and hard to achieve it.

Jonathan

[Manoli]

Speaking of fraud ...

How Trump Steered Supporters Into Unwitting Donations

Online donors were guided into weekly recurring contributions. Demands for refunds spiked. Complaints to banks and credit card companies soared. But the money helped keep Donald Trump’s struggling campaign afloat.

Stacy Blatt was in hospice care last September listening to Rush Limbaugh’s dire warnings about how badly Donald J. Trump’s campaign needed money when he went online and chipped in everything he could: $500.

It was a big sum for a 63-year-old battling cancer and living in Kansas City on less than $1,000 per month. But that single contribution — federal records show it was his first ever — quickly multiplied. Another $500 was withdrawn the next day, then $500 the next week and every week through mid-October, without his knowledge — until Mr. Blatt’s bank account had been depleted and frozen. When his utility and rent payments bounced, he called his brother, Russell, for help.

What the Blatts soon discovered was $3,000 in withdrawals by the Trump campaign in less than 30 days. They called their bank and said they thought they were victims of fraud.

Full detailed article:
NYT

[Alan Klein]

Do you think voter fraud was why Donald Trump lost?

No.

[Alan Klein]

Alan,

The UK data that Dreed quoted included what we in the UK call postal votes.  We do not seem to suffer from the problems you allege there are in the US.  We are great believers in universal suffrage; our ancestors fought long and hard to achieve it.

Jonathan

We are great believers in universal suffrage too; our ancestors fought long and hard for it.  That's why we threw out the Brits. 

[LesPalenik]

Quote from: James Clark on Today at 09:37:07 am
Do you think voter fraud was why Donald Trump lost?

No.

Further research shows a strong opinion polarization on this subject.