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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 144158 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8680 on: March 08, 2021, 01:29:52 pm »

Lack of predators require hunting to keep the deer population down here in the east. There are thousands of accidents here in NJ from cars hitting them during magic hour  when the photographers are out shooting sunsets. Also during rutting season when the bucks are chasing the girls all over the place. Dead deer on the side of the road all the time.  People get killed from the accidents and they make a mess of your car even if you survive.

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8681 on: March 08, 2021, 01:33:50 pm »

Lack of predators require hunting to keep the deer population down here in the east. There are thousands of accidents here in NJ from cars hitting them during magic hour  when the photographers are out shooting sunsets. Also during rutting season when the bucks are chasing the girls all over the place. Dead deer on the side of the road all the time.  People get killed from the accidents and they make a mess of your car even if you survive.
Leave it to Alan to assume the discussion is about the lack of hunting/killing predators which no one has suggested. It's about this push, by some Republications towards a NON-scientific approach to wildlife management and making it political. But then science isn't his forte.  :P
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 01:57:09 pm by digitaldog »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8682 on: March 08, 2021, 02:11:40 pm »

Lack of predators require hunting to keep the deer population down here in the east. There are thousands of accidents here in NJ from cars hitting them during magic hour  when the photographers are out shooting sunsets. Also during rutting season when the bucks are chasing the girls all over the place. Dead deer on the side of the road all the time.  People get killed from the accidents and they make a mess of your car even if you survive.

Based on my driving trips through Michigan, Ohio, New York, Pennsylvania and Ontario I've seen many more deer carcasses on the US roads than in Ontario. Most probably due to higher deer populations in the US states. Never seen a dead wolf on the road, but apparently that happens occasionally in BC and Alberta.
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Chris Kern

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8683 on: March 08, 2021, 03:09:10 pm »

Based on my driving trips through Michigan, Ohio, New York, Pennsylvania and Ontario I've seen many more deer carcasses on the US roads than in Ontario. Most probably due to higher deer populations in the US states.

The urban deer in our small Maryland city are so acclimated to humans that the older ones typically look both ways for oncoming traffic before crossing the street.  Last summer a frequent visitor to our yard was a doe with two fawns.  When my wife would chase them away from her flower gardens, the doe would check for traffic, walk out into the middle of the street, and then stand guard there until the fawns had safely crossed.

The city government conducted a cull this winter (archery only since there's no open space within the city limits expansive enough to permit the use of firearms).  We'll know this Spring whether it has made any difference.   I have my doubts.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8684 on: March 08, 2021, 03:10:09 pm »

In a Yellowstone National Park campground, I attended a campfire lecture by one the the park's wardens.  She told a story of decades-long widespread environmental destruction in the park by elk, whose population skyrocketed as a result of vanished wolf predation.  The reintroduction of wolves (from Canada, YAY!) resulted in a near-perfect, unaided restoration of the park's habitat to its former state.  Even the microbiology of the creeks was suffering from the destruction waged by the elk. That meant that another of the Rightists' holy recreational occupations, fishing, was similarly affected.  Fish were disappearing. Fuck with Nature at your peril.

And as for trumpjunior, an asshole of frightful proportion, he's well covered by Oscar Wilde, I believe.  He described the topic of sport hunting well with the description "The inexcusable, in pursuit of the inedible".
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8685 on: March 08, 2021, 03:17:42 pm »

Lack of predators require hunting to keep the deer population down here in the east. There are thousands of accidents here in NJ from cars hitting them...

It's a big problem not confined to your backyard, Alan.  A deer can write off a $75K F-150 and they do so regularly, nationwide.

Guess what animal wolves LOVE to eat?

This whole issue is another example of a limited group of special interests using bribery to get politicians change legislation for their own benefit.  Science and the rest of the population be damned.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8686 on: March 08, 2021, 03:17:54 pm »

The urban deer in our small Maryland city are so acclimated to humans that the older ones typically look both ways for oncoming traffic before crossing the street.  Last summer a frequent visitor to our yard was a doe with two fawns.  When my wife would chase them away from her flower gardens, the doe would check for traffic, walk out into the middle of the street, and then stand guard there until the fawns had safely crossed.

The city government conducted a cull this winter (archery only since there's no open space within the city limits expansive enough to permit the use of firearms).  We'll know this Spring whether it has made any difference.   I have my doubts.
Arming the deer just might work in getting rid of some of those pesky humans.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8687 on: March 08, 2021, 03:20:35 pm »

Sometimes, Alan, you leave me at a loss for words.

However, this time I'm not so unaffected.

"vapid"

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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8688 on: March 08, 2021, 03:28:06 pm »

It's a big problem not confined to your backyard, Alan.  A deer can write off a $75K F-150 and they do so regularly, nationwide.

Guess what animal wolves LOVE to eat?

This whole issue is another example of a limited group of special interests using bribery to get politicians change legislation for their own benefit.  Science and the rest of the population be damned.
Lack of predators and the concurrent dead deer and other animals hit by cars as the human population has increased, has given rise to huge quantities of turkey vultures, things I never saw when I was younger.  Of course, deer tick populations have exploded causing a lot of harm to humans with Lyme and other debilitating and sometimes fatal diseases.  I'm really nervous shooting landscapes in the woods and often wear permethrin-impregnated clothes to kill the ticks.   Wolves may be OK out west, but I don't think it would work here in the east to limit deer.  I've seen a coyote once here in NJ.  But I don't think they're considered a problem to deer, maybe fawns. 

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8689 on: March 08, 2021, 03:32:01 pm »

Here I was trying to elevate the conversation into the rarefied air of shooting wolves with high powered rifles from motorized parachutes and a couple of posts later we are talking about hitting deer on the way over to Jack in the Box. Who's responsible for this?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 03:35:41 pm by faberryman »
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MattBurt

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8690 on: March 08, 2021, 04:02:30 pm »

Here I was trying to elevate the conversation into the rarefied air of shooting wolves with high powered rifles from motorized parachutes and a couple of posts later we are talking about hitting deer on the way over to Jack in the Box. Who's responsible for this?

You must choose.
If you aren't for hunting wolves from powered paragliders with no restrictions whatsoever than you are for grandma (or Alan) dying of lyme disease or a deer-caused traffic accident. It's as simple as that.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8691 on: March 08, 2021, 04:07:38 pm »

In a Yellowstone National Park campground, I attended a campfire lecture by one the the park's wardens.  She told a story of decades-long widespread environmental destruction in the park by elk, whose population skyrocketed as a result of vanished wolf predation.  The reintroduction of wolves (from Canada, YAY!) resulted in a near-perfect, unaided restoration of the park's habitat to its former state.  Even the microbiology of the creeks was suffering from the destruction waged by the elk. That meant that another of the Rightists' holy recreational occupations, fishing, was similarly affected.  Fish were disappearing. Fuck with Nature at your peril.

And as for trumpjunior, an asshole of frightful proportion, he's well covered by Oscar Wilde, I believe.  He described the topic of sport hunting well with the description "The inexcusable, in pursuit of the inedible".

The re-introduction of grey wolves to Yellowstone and Montana was a sound decision at that time. However, unlike in Canada where the wolves have been managed for hundreds of years, the wolves in Yellowstone haven't been controlled. This contributed to oversized and not so healthy wolf population, and a drastically reduced elk herds.
 
Quote
The 2019 count was conducted between March 17 and March 19. Some 5,800 elk were observed across the vast Northern Range survey area—1,361 individuals or 23.5 percent of the total, were spotted inside Yellowstone Park and 4,149, or 71.5 percent, viewed outside of the park in lower elevation areas of Montana.
The 2019 figure is 23 percent lower than both the 7,579 elk observed a year ago and the 7,510 elk tallied in 2016, the three government agencies stated in a release of the data.

This is the second consecutive year with calf ratios below the threshold of 20 calves per 100 cows considered necessary to maintain a stable population. It is likely that additional winter mortalities will occur into spring, further reducing overall numbers and recruitment,”the scientists wrote. “Below-average yearling bull and calf recruitment is likely to result in lower numbers of brow-tined bulls being recruited into the population over the next two years.”
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 04:13:11 pm by LesPalenik »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8692 on: March 08, 2021, 04:08:39 pm »

Here I was trying to elevate the conversation into the rarefied air of shooting wolves with high powered rifles from motorized parachutes and a couple of posts later we are talking about hitting deer on the way over to Jack in the Box. Who's responsible for this?

You must be a good shot to hit a moving wolf from a motorized parachute/paraglider, it seems to me, or do they spray them with AR-15 automatic fire? If the motor is running the vibrations must be harsh and even if it isn't there must be a fair amount of wind movement up there.
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John Camp

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8693 on: March 08, 2021, 05:31:39 pm »

You must be a good shot to hit a moving wolf from a motorized parachute/paraglider, it seems to me, or do they spray them with AR-15 automatic fire? If the motor is running the vibrations must be harsh and even if it isn't there must be a fair amount of wind movement up there.

I'm a former hunter (I no longer want to kill anything) but for years, even after I quit hunting, I had a cabin in the North Woods of Wisconsin where male family and friends would get together to hunt deer in the late fall. Frankly, I liked it, and people who have not hunted really can't know the compelling kind of intensity that comes with pointing your nose into the wind (which does humans no good, but you instinctively do it anyway) and stalking deer. Which you eat. And which I think is generally more humane in terms of animal-killing than commercial beef, pork or fowl. (And I still have some practical reservations about the whole process.) But hunting has become politicized, and has become a manhood thing, very often for city folk who know nothing about hunting and little about guns, except that they want to go and kill something. In fact, I think manhood issues lie behind a lot of political problems in the US.

The wolves thing is a manhood issue. "I killed a big bad wolf, so I can't possibly be a pussy," when, in fact, you're probably more in danger from the neighborhood pit bull than you would ever be from a wolf. I've twice seen wolves in the wild, once in NW Ontario and once in Yellowstone, and was thrilled by the privilege.

That said, I was once a newspaper columnist, and there was a controversy over how many moose permits would should be allowed in the Boundary Waters area of Minnesota, up on the Canadian border. I suggested unlimited permits in January, bulls only, with a few restrictions. No guns, spears only. Ski-in, ski-out, you could pull a sled. No electronic equipment at all -- if you got hurt, that was your problem. If you died out there, that was your problem. If you were late coming back, nobody would be allowed to look for you. A state wildlife guy said that under those conditions, he would expect at least a hundred hunters every year, even if hunters died the year before. Such is manhood. 8-)
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8694 on: March 08, 2021, 06:08:25 pm »

I'm a former hunter (I no longer want to kill anything) but for years, even after I quit hunting, I had a cabin in the North Woods of Wisconsin where male family and friends would get together to hunt deer in the late fall. Frankly, I liked it, and people who have not hunted really can't know the compelling kind of intensity that comes with pointing your nose into the wind (which does humans no good, but you instinctively do it anyway) and stalking deer. Which you eat. And which I think is generally more humane in terms of animal-killing than commercial beef, pork or fowl. (And I still have some practical reservations about the whole process.) But hunting has become politicized, and has become a manhood thing, very often for city folk who know nothing about hunting and little about guns, except that they want to go and kill something. In fact, I think manhood issues lie behind a lot of political problems in the US.

The wolves thing is a manhood issue. "I killed a big bad wolf, so I can't possibly be a pussy," when, in fact, you're probably more in danger from the neighborhood pit bull than you would ever be from a wolf. I've twice seen wolves in the wild, once in NW Ontario and once in Yellowstone, and was thrilled by the privilege.

That said, I was once a newspaper columnist, and there was a controversy over how many moose permits would should be allowed in the Boundary Waters area of Minnesota, up on the Canadian border. I suggested unlimited permits in January, bulls only, with a few restrictions. No guns, spears only. Ski-in, ski-out, you could pull a sled. No electronic equipment at all -- if you got hurt, that was your problem. If you died out there, that was your problem. If you were late coming back, nobody would be allowed to look for you. A state wildlife guy said that under those conditions, he would expect at least a hundred hunters every year, even if hunters died the year before. Such is manhood. 8-)

I don't have anything against hunting (or fishing). I knew friends and family that hunted, geese, duck and partridge mostly. They had to walk a lot, it was a weekend getaway, they mostly didn't hit anything. But human population has doubled since then and the great outdoors have either shrunk or are farther away. I was never interested enough to try it myself. I did some target shooting once, that was fun, and I wasn't a bad shot but it was probably beginner's luck. I have a problem with using ATVs and snowmobiles to wear the animals out, don't see the sport or fun in that. I know some deer/moose hunters now, mostly bow, as a group they split what they kill as they love game meat. If nothing else, since we have replaced local wolves as apex predator, some of that cull is probably a useful thing. But the hunters I know would not approve of mechanized or from-the-sky hunting just for the fun of killing, doesn't fit in with their love of wilderness.

I also don't have a problem with farmers owning varmint rifles. When you live an hour or more from anywhere, you have to solve your own problems sometimes. I'm fairly confident that your average farmer doesn't have the time or energy to go whooping in the woods randomly killing animals for a laugh.

Reasonable people behave reasonably, but there always seem to be fetishists who latch onto guns like it's 1836 on the lone prairie and who elevate the pastime to near-religion, or politics by proxy. Enthusiasms can sometimes overwhelm people for a while.

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degrub

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8695 on: March 08, 2021, 06:18:05 pm »

and a world war can reset that fetish.

we grew up in a world of rambo movies.... escapism, yes, but enough latch onto it and run with it.

i grew up hunting and fishing for food. Nothing was wasted.  If we didn't eat it the dogs or the vultures would.


Not hunting only because you wanted to shoot something that moved or to have something to hang on the wall.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8696 on: March 08, 2021, 07:38:49 pm »

Maybe this is a stretch, but a photographer often acts as a hunter.  He gets up early, packs his gear, tracks down the target and shoots it, takes it home, dresses it (Photoshop), mounts it and hangs it up on the wall like a trophy, or puts it on the web for others to admire and tell him, "Nice shot."

OK.  He hasn't killed anything.  I get that.  But that process is similar.  Then afterwards he socializes about it, discusses the hunt, tactics, 30-30 or full format, the equipment, the methods, etc.  Sometimes it's done in a group, sometimes alone.  But there is a social process that happens that we all appreciate.  Now I'm not a hunter; never did hunt.  But I fish now and again.  It's very similar although I don't hang fish on the wall. 

LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8697 on: March 08, 2021, 07:50:58 pm »

Maybe this is a stretch, but a photographer often acts as a hunter.  He gets up early, packs his gear, tracks down the target and shoots it, takes it home, dresses it (Photoshop), mounts it and hangs it up on the wall like a trophy, or puts it on the web for others to admire and tell him, "Nice shot."

OK.  He hasn't killed anything.  I get that.  But that process is similar.  Then afterwards he socializes about it, discusses the hunt, tactics, 30-30 or full format, the equipment, the methods, etc.  Sometimes it's done in a group, sometimes alone.  But there is a social process that happens that we all appreciate.  Now I'm not a hunter; never did hunt.  But I fish now and again.  It's very similar although I don't hang fish on the wall.

The hunter sharpens his knife and the photographer cleans his lens. Another difference is that in a bear country the hunter moves quietly and a photographer is advised to make a lot of noise.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8698 on: March 09, 2021, 08:16:58 am »

I wonder if it bit a Democrat or a Republican?

Biden’s dogs leave White House, sent home to Delaware after ‘biting’ incident: Report
https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/bidens-dogs-leave-white-house-sent-home-to-delaware-after-biting-incident-report/

LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #8699 on: March 09, 2021, 09:36:25 am »

I wonder if it bit a Democrat or a Republican?

Biden’s dogs leave White House, sent home to Delaware after ‘biting’ incident: Report
https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/bidens-dogs-leave-white-house-sent-home-to-delaware-after-biting-incident-report/

According to Forbes, the shepherd showed aggressive behaviour against the WH staff. Just imagine how he would react toward photographers with long lenses.

As to the hostility against one or the other political party, the dogs would be definitely more aggressive against the GOP card carrying members. A poll from the irreverent game Cards Against Humanity found that Democrats and more probably also their dogs like the smell of their bodily odours more than Republicans like the scent of their own rear-end emissions.

https://www.newsweek.com/democrats-their-farts-smell-more-republicans-poll-cards-against-humanity-751676
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