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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 425586 times)

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6980 on: February 14, 2021, 03:24:02 pm »

It's not the process that could be unconstitutional but rather the impeachment itself.  The trial is supposed to be for a sitting president.  That's why the Chief Justice refused to sit at this impeachment but sat for Trump's first.  So the Senate tried a civilian and then would prevent him from running for federal political office. 

Trump's lawsuit in such as situation would be that it's unconstitutional for the Senate to impeach a civilian and taking away his constitutional right to run for office. It had no jurisdiction over him once he left office.  If he violated some Federal law about insurrection, then he should be tried in an actual court of law, not the Senate.

The senate may also be violating another constitutional section called a Bill of Attainder, where the senate by its act takes away the right of an individual without a trial.  Since the impeachment is not a trial as we know it but a political hearing of sorts, the Supreme Court might rule this a Bill of Attainder.  Maybe one of our legal scholars can explain Bills of Attainder better.

All nonsense. Maybe someone else has the patience to explain it to you. I don't.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2021, 04:00:36 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6981 on: February 14, 2021, 03:32:23 pm »

Nixon was pre-emptively pardoned by Ford.
The pardon had nothing to do with impeachment.  Plans to impeach were dropped when Nixon resigned.  The pardon prevented Nixon from being charged criminally and tried in a Federal court.  The House and the Senate would have nothing to do with that.   

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6982 on: February 14, 2021, 04:26:23 pm »

It's not the process that could be unconstitutional but rather the impeachment itself.  The trial is supposed to be for a sitting president. 
Nope:
The Constitution Doesn’t Bar Trump’s Impeachment Trial
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-constitution-doesnt-bar-trumps-impeachment-trial-11612724124?mod=opinion_lead_pos5
And:
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10565
And dozens upon dozens of other URLs one can provide you can ignore.
But the actual facts you should attempt to examine, understand:
Senate Declares That Trump's Impeachment Trial Is Constitutional
https://www.npr.org/sections/trump-impeachment-trial-live-updates/2021/02/09/965970361/senate-votes-its-constitutional-to-try-former-president-donald-trump
The second impeachment trial of Donald Trump will move forward after the Senate voted Tuesday that the trial of a former president is constitutional.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6983 on: February 14, 2021, 04:33:43 pm »

All nonsense. Maybe someone else has the patience to explain it to you. I don't.
Explaining isn't the issue. An understanding and acceptance of facts is the issue.
We've got a flat earther.
He still can't even admit here that all original prints are not 300 DPI or that upgrades for LR are not free, stuff that's simple to understand and accept for most. The constitution, legal concerns, who caused deaths from Covid-19 in NY? Way, way above his pay grade.
That not one person here has taken his side, agreed with him or hasn't mocked his posts would be a sign for most that they should post rubbish in forums of like minded people who are equally immune from facts. So, it's troll time. As stated pages ago, and which I'm guilty of not abiding by: don't feed the trolls. It's hard not to reply to utter rubbish, but it's not effective; the mans 'mind' is closed.  :'(
I think I'll wait until he comes up a different subject filled with nonsense to rebut. The Cuomo death squad crap, the impeachment, since no one here is taking him at all seriously, our job on those topics are done IMHO. 
Its very clear, on multiple topics, this fellow just doesn't know what he's talking about.  ;)
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6984 on: February 14, 2021, 04:48:59 pm »

It's not the process that could be unconstitutional but rather the impeachment itself.

The Constitution is clear that the House of Representatives has the sole power of impeachment. The Supreme Court has made it abundantly clear in their rulings that sole means sole and that the Court has no role in impeachment as it is a nonjusticiable issue which is solely and completely contained within the political branch of government, namely Congress. The Supreme Court has plainly stated that any intervention by the judicial branch, including the Supreme Court, in impeachment would violate the separation of powers that is fundamental to the Constitution and that they have no authority or power to do so. There are limits to the powers of every branch of government by design—including the Supreme Court.

U.S. Supreme Court Unanimous Decision in Nixon_v._United_States [Federal Judge Walter Nixon—not the former president] in 1993...

"A review of the Constitutional Convention's history and the contemporary commentary supports a reading of the constitutional language as deliberately placing the impeachment power in the Legislature, with no judicial involvement, even for the limited purpose of judicial review."

Full decision is here, laying out in detail the multiple reasons the Supreme Court gave for having no role to play in impeachment.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/Nixon v. United States, 506 U.S. 224 (1993)

or for a summary...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge Walter Nixon_v._United_States

The trial is supposed to be for a sitting president.  That's why the Chief Justice refused to sit at this impeachment but sat for Trump's first.

Chief Justice Roberts was never asked to sit as presiding officer in the most recent impeachment trial, so how could he refuse a request that was never made? If you have some evidence to back up your assertion that he refused a request to preside, please present it. You can't, because there is none.

The proper authority to preside over the impeachment trial was the Presiding Officer of the Senate which is the President Pro Tempore of the Senate, Senator Patrick Leahy. That's who presided and he did so under the Senate rules of impeachment as the proper authority.

https://crsreports.congress.gov/The Impeachment Process in the Senate, Updated January 27, 2021

So the Senate tried a civilian and then would prevent him from running for federal political office. 

Trump was impeached while serving as President of the United States for his disgraceful and dangerous conduct while in office. His trial was conducted shortly after leaving that office. The use of the word "civilian" is meaningless and frivolous in this context.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6985 on: February 14, 2021, 05:05:02 pm »

Interesting take on the impeachment from Conservative David Frum:

Impeachment did not prevail, but Trump still lost.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/02/impeachment-did-not-prevail-trump-still-lost/618026/
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6986 on: February 14, 2021, 05:58:32 pm »

Trump's lawsuit in such as situation would be that it's unconstitutional for the Senate to impeach a civilian and taking away his constitutional right to run for office. It had no jurisdiction over him once he left office.  If he violated some Federal law about insurrection, then he should be tried in an actual court of law, not the Senate.

The senate may also be violating another constitutional section called a Bill of Attainder, where the senate by its act takes away the right of an individual without a trial.  Since the impeachment is not a trial as we know it but a political hearing of sorts, the Supreme Court might rule this a Bill of Attainder.  Maybe one of our legal scholars can explain Bills of Attainder better.

There are three categories of penalties that under the U.S. Constitution an individual could potentially be subjected to: criminal; civil; and political. Bills of attainder enacted by any state or federal legislature which target an individual with civil or criminal liability are unconstitutional. The political punishment of an individual thru impeachment is a separate and distinct act that by its very nature is confined to an individual that has violated a trust under oath to faithfully uphold their constitutional duties in a specific public office and is not prohibited by the Constitution nor is it subject to judicial review as a civil or criminal legislative act would be as I have explained above.

It does not require an extensive legal education to understand that the prohibition of a legislature passing criminal or civil laws that target a specific individual or which exclude judicial process and review [a Bill of Attainder] is different from the political process of impeachment for individuals violating their oath or trust of public office by their conduct in that office. There are no civil or criminal penalties to impeachment and conviction as it is entirely a political process with wholly political punishments.

Criminal or civil judicial conviction does not prohibit, nor does it automatically trigger, an impeachment of a public official. Impeachment and conviction of a public official does not prohibit, nor does it automatically trigger, a criminal or civil judicial trial or conviction. They are completely separate functions of government for entirely separate purposes; and by law and constitutional construction have entirely different rules, standards, and punishments.
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BobShaw

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6987 on: February 14, 2021, 09:35:59 pm »

Most of the world actually wonders how the US can have a system where your leader or government can not be just sacked?
In the Westminster system if the government goes off the rails your Governor General/Governor/Monarch just sacks them and calls a general election.

We have only had it happen once in Australia but the Labor government in 1975 was sacked.
They had a lot of support but just spent more money than they had.
So the Governor General famously sacked them on Remembrance Day and three weeks later we had a general election and a new government by a landslide.

The only way to get rid of a President seems to be to shoot them, in which you just get his yes man and the same stuff for the rest of his 4 years.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6988 on: February 14, 2021, 09:46:46 pm »

Most of the world actually wonders how the US can have a system where your leader or government can not be just sacked?
In the Westminster system if the government goes off the rails your Governor General/Governor/Monarch just sacks them and calls a general election.

We have only had it happen once in Australia but the Labor government in 1975 was sacked.
They had a lot of support but just spent more money than they had.
So the Governor General famously sacked them on Remembrance Day and three weeks later we had a general election and a new government by a landslide.

The only way to get rid of a President seems to be to shoot them, in which you just get his yes man and the same stuff for the rest of his 4 years.

What strikes me is that US Presidential powers seem to be a lot like the powers of traditional pre-parliamentary monarchs, whereas modern constitutional monarchs have almost no power. Quite the turnabout.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6989 on: February 14, 2021, 09:56:17 pm »

the constitution says removal from office AND punishment not OR.

Actually, the Constitution says: "Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States" and both are punishments for abusing the trust of a public office.

The Constitution does not use the word "or" to insure that these two exclusive punishments for impeachment could not be misconstrued as mutually exclusive. They are the exclusive punishments in that they are the only ones that may be applied on conviction [shall not extend further than], but they are not mutually exclusive. Removal is mandatory for a current office holder if convicted; disqualification is optional. If the framers had chosen to use the word "or" between the punishments in writing that provision into the Constitution, one then could have argued that conviction on impeachment would allow for removal from office "or" disqualification, but not both punishments. That was clearly not the intent of the framers in providing for only those two exclusive punishments. Both may be applied to current office holders that are impeached and convicted; it is not an either/"or" proposition. Common sense and the simplest logic infer that only the latter applies to those no longer in office.

To suggest that someone cannot be disqualified from future office, as long as they leave office either prior to impeachment or trial, would render the framers' inclusion of disqualification as a punishment so easily avoidable, it would be a toothless and meaningless provision. The idea that the framers' use of the word "and" provides a loophole thru which those guilty of serious misconduct in office can escape both the mandatory removal punishment and the more severe optional punishment of being disqualified from future office, simply by leaving office, would assume the framers were either too foolish to realize their error in choice of wording which allows anyone to escape without any political punishment of any kind simply by leaving office or that they intentionally put in a loophole, so that even the most corrupt and dangerous of public officials could later resume their political offices and machinations, simply by leaving their current office to escape impeachment and removal, and by doing so escape disqualification. The framers were anything but fools, but to think that they desired and designed an escape mechanism thru the use of the word "and" in listing the two political punishments available for those dangerous or corrupt individuals that abuse their trust in holding office is foolish. It would render the inclusion of impeachment, trial, removal, and disqualification in the Constitution as a futile exercise in which any political punishment—including the most severe punishment of disqualification from holding any future office—could be easily avoided by even the most corrupt and dangerous individuals by resigning from office prior to impeachment or trial and then returning to office to engage in further treachery. The belief that this was the intention of the framers is absurd.

The logical conclusion based on precedent and history is that impeachment, trial, and the punishments prescribed were written into the Constitution to guard the nation from corrupt or dangerous individuals given the honor and trust of public office. Removal from office is a remedy to a current danger. Disqualification is a remedy for future dangers. In providing the remedy of disqualification for individuals whose conduct in office has been so egregious as to present an ongoing danger, it would be rational to assume that the framers were more concerned with the future ability of dangerous individuals to inhabit high positions within the government rather than whether such individuals were impeached or tried a month before they left office or a month after leaving office. It is the misconduct of an official while in office that is of primary importance in an impeachment and not their current office status for reasons that should be obvious. Given the history of impeachment with which the framers were familiar and their inclusion of it the Constitution to guard the nation from misconduct by officials while serving, it is far more logical to assume that the use of "and"—in "and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office"—is used in its simplest form to add disqualification as a punishment for any conviction of a current or former holder of an office of public trust that may seek office again and not a punishment that relies on whether an individual currently holds an office of trust from which they can be removed.

One can make the argument that removal from office only by impeachment and conviction—and not removal from office thru an election or resignation—was intended by the framers as a prerequisite for disqualification from future office, but if the rationale for that argument is the usage of the word "and" preceding disqualification, it makes for a very weak argument. It's a superficial argument that falls apart under the least scrutiny of history, precedent, logic, and most of all—intent.

The single most important question to ask in deciding the logic of that argument and the implied intent of the framers is... Why would the framers provide a mechanism for disqualification from future office—made optional so as to apply to only the most corrupt and dangerous individuals—and then make that disqualification so easily avoidable? Were they not really that concerned? Were they just not very bright or knowledgable in the use of language? Were they naive to the lengths that unscrupulous and dangerous individuals will go to obtain and hold on to power?  I would say none of the above because the argument defies reason and common sense, even if one disregards the other issues of history and precedent.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2021, 11:27:41 pm by TechTalk »
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John Camp

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6990 on: February 14, 2021, 09:56:58 pm »

Most of the world actually wonders how the US can have a system where your leader or government can not be just sacked?
In the Westminster system if the government goes off the rails your Governor General/Governor/Monarch just sacks them and calls a general election.

We have only had it happen once in Australia but the Labor government in 1975 was sacked.
They had a lot of support but just spent more money than they had.
So the Governor General famously sacked them on Remembrance Day and three weeks later we had a general election and a new government by a landslide.

The only way to get rid of a President seems to be to shoot them, in which you just get his yes man and the same stuff for the rest of his 4 years.

So this nearly ungovernable federation could have been brilliantly ruled by the equivalents (in the 20th century) of Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, David Cameron, Theresa May and Boris Johnson? With a confirmed anti-Semite waiting in the wings should one of them falter? Not that strong an argument, actually. 8-)
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John Camp

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6991 on: February 14, 2021, 10:00:11 pm »

As for Alan, why do people continue to respond? Why not just post something else on your own, then give your post about five bumps, which would push Alan's onto a back page, where nobody will read it? Think of the savings in bandwidth alone,, not to mention aggravation.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6992 on: February 14, 2021, 10:03:22 pm »

The fact the chief Justice refused to sit as the judge, is another indicator of the weakness of your argument.

The Chief Justice presides when a President currently holding office is tried. The Presiding Officer of the Senate presides over all other impeachment trials. Those facts have no bearing on the strength or weakness of any argument regarding the constitutionality of impeachment or trial of former office holders. The strength or weakness of such arguments is determined by history, precedent, reason, logic, and the Constitution. A reasonable and logical reading of the constitutional provisions for impeachment and trial has resulted in multiple historical precedents being established that it is constitutional to hold previous office holders accountable for their actions while in office thru the political process of impeachment and trial for the very same reasons that the framers established the impeachment process for removal and potential disqualification of current office holders—to protect the nation from individuals whose conduct represents a danger if allowed to remain in office or to seek office in the future.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6993 on: February 14, 2021, 10:07:42 pm »

Has Alan ever been correct about anything?  :)
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6994 on: February 14, 2021, 11:43:14 pm »

Nope:
The Constitution Doesn’t Bar Trump’s Impeachment Trial
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-constitution-doesnt-bar-trumps-impeachment-trial-11612724124?mod=opinion_lead_pos5
And:
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10565
And dozens upon dozens of other URLs one can provide you can ignore.
But the actual facts you should attempt to examine, understand:
Senate Declares That Trump's Impeachment Trial Is Constitutional
https://www.npr.org/sections/trump-impeachment-trial-live-updates/2021/02/09/965970361/senate-votes-its-constitutional-to-try-former-president-donald-trump
The second impeachment trial of Donald Trump will move forward after the Senate voted Tuesday that the trial of a former president is constitutional.
t
The courts are the final arbiter of constitutionality, not the Senate.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6995 on: February 14, 2021, 11:58:37 pm »

The Chief Justice presides when a President currently holding office is tried. The Presiding Officer of the Senate presides over all other impeachment trials. Those facts have no bearing on the strength or weakness of any argument regarding the constitutionality of impeachment or trial of former office holders. The strength or weakness of such arguments is determined by history, precedent, reason, logic, and the Constitution. A reasonable and logical reading of the constitutional provisions for impeachment and trial has resulted in multiple historical precedents being established that it is constitutional to hold previous office holders accountable for their actions while in office thru the political process of impeachment and trial for the very same reasons that the framers established the impeachment process for removal and potential disqualification of current office holders—to protect the nation from individuals whose conduct represents a danger if allowed to remain in office or to seek office in the future.
The Presiding judge sits for other federal officials as you say. But Trump was a civilian at the time of his trial. So they had no jurisdiction to try him.  If he violated the law and caused insurrection, he has to be tried in a court of law, not the senate.  That;s why Ford pardoned Nixon.  Not to prevent an impeachment and Senate trial.  But to prevent criminal charges and trial in Federal court.

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6996 on: February 15, 2021, 12:10:19 am »

The courts are the final arbiter of constitutionality, not the Senate.

Here we have an example of a bald assertion. An unsupported statement. It’s a logical fallacy. Or colloquially, just because you say it don’t make it true. Sort of like if someone said “Sasquatch is real.” I wouldn’t waste a lot of lot of time trying to prove to the guy that Sasquatch isn’t real. It is his obligation to prove his statement is true. Who knows? Maybe he has some photos or something.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 12:30:34 am by faberryman »
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6997 on: February 15, 2021, 12:13:26 am »

The Presiding judge sits for other federal officials as you say. But Trump was a civilian at the time of his trial. So they had no jurisdiction to try him.  If he violated the law and caused insurrection, he has to be tried in a court of law, not the senate.  That;s why Ford pardoned Nixon.  Not to prevent an impeachment and Senate trial.  But to prevent criminal charges and trial in Federal court.

Quite a few bald assertions here.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6998 on: February 15, 2021, 12:25:31 am »

Most of the world actually wonders how the US can have a system where your leader or government can not be just sacked?
In the Westminster system if the government goes off the rails your Governor General/Governor/Monarch just sacks them and calls a general election.

We have only had it happen once in Australia but the Labor government in 1975 was sacked.
They had a lot of support but just spent more money than they had.
So the Governor General famously sacked them on Remembrance Day and three weeks later we had a general election and a new government by a landslide.

The only way to get rid of a President seems to be to shoot them, in which you just get his yes man and the same stuff for the rest of his 4 years.

  There is no "one" government in the US as I believe parliamentarian systems work.      The United States has a federal system of 50 sovereign states that  elect the president through each states' representatives called electors. Additionally, the government in Washington is set up with three branches that have independently powers and each checks the powers of the other branches.  A president is not the arm of Congress as a PM is of parliament. Congress checks and can "fire" presidents and other federal officers through the impeachment process.  Our government has been in continued operation for over 200 years. 

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #6999 on: February 15, 2021, 12:39:50 am »

  There is no "one" government in the US as I believe parliamentarian systems work.      The United States has a federal system of 50 sovereign states that  elect the president through each states' representatives called electors.

Of course Congress and the Vice President have to count the votes before it is official, so the executive and legislative branches get in on the action. Depending on who you talk to, the Vice President can refuse to count the votes claiming fraud, and then pick whomever he wants as President. We had a riot about that recently.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 01:01:45 am by faberryman »
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