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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 316677 times)

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14760 on: July 04, 2022, 09:10:25 am »

I think that Americans need to be reminded regularly that no nation is immune to the loss of freedom and democracy at the hands of a mob, a demagogue, or a twisted ideology.

But I think we have more to fear from an overreaching government.

Some need reminding more often than others.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14761 on: July 04, 2022, 10:55:12 am »


We have more to fear from the government.  They have all the police power, army and guns.  Our constitution and Bill of Rights limits government power to protect people, not the government.  It doesn't need protecting.

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14762 on: July 04, 2022, 11:06:00 am »

We have more to fear from the government.  They have all the police power, army and guns.  Our constitution and Bill of Rights limits government power to protect people, not the government.  It doesn't need protecting.
Once spoken when Alan was a lad:
“We have nothing to fear but fear itself“
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PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14763 on: July 04, 2022, 11:59:26 am »

We have more to fear from the government.  They have all the police power, army and guns.  Our constitution and Bill of Rights limits government power to protect people, not the government.  It doesn't need protecting.

Much of what government does is to protect people, not itself. Protect them from racism (civil rights act), disenfranchisement (voting rights act), environmental degradation (EPA), fraudulent drugs (FDA), financial scams (CPB), and so on. Does it not ever occur to you that the right wing has been against every one of these things?
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14764 on: July 04, 2022, 12:04:34 pm »

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Here's an example the Supreme Court ruled "no" to.  Major changes to our economic system should be made democratically by elected representatives voting in Congress and not by unelected officials in government agencies who don't report to the people.  Whether you're for the EPA rules or not, it should be Congress that decides.
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With MJT and Boebert in Congress then, you have nothing to fear. Best of luck.  :)
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14765 on: July 04, 2022, 06:07:54 pm »

Much of what government does is to protect people, not itself. Protect them from racism (civil rights act), disenfranchisement (voting rights act), environmental degradation (EPA), fraudulent drugs (FDA), financial scams (CPB), and so on. Does it not ever occur to you that the right wing has been against every one of these things?

People who put their ideology above all else are intentionally blind to the basic purpose of the Constitution which is not to limit government power or to protect people from government. The fundamental purpose of the Constitution is balance. The purpose is to balance political power, balance judicial power, balance military power, balance individual and collective rights, balance the potential for government tyranny and the tyranny of the mob. Its fundamental purpose includes the need to balance protection of the government AND protection of the people who have elected its principal agents and authorized its powers — not one or the other. There is a lot of balance in the Constitution which gets ignored in favor of black and white antigovernment dogma.

It is their completely unbalanced view of the Constitution that blinds them to viewing it as a whole rather than a selectively edited document. Unfortunately, its highly unlikely that once someone has incorporated a blind adherence to an ideology into their self-image, that you will ever penetrate their rationalizing of it.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14766 on: July 04, 2022, 08:26:59 pm »

Much of what government does is to protect people, not itself. Protect them from racism (civil rights act), disenfranchisement (voting rights act), environmental degradation (EPA), fraudulent drugs (FDA), financial scams (CPB), and so on. Does it not ever occur to you that the right wing has been against every one of these things?
Nonsequitar.  I was responding to another poster to make the point that people have more to fear from the government than government has to fear from people.  That's why we have the Bill of Rights protecting people from seizure, testifying against ourselves, free speech, religion, habeas corpus,  etc by an out-of-control government.  Isn't that what Jan 6th is claimed to be about?  A "coup" by a leader?  Who needs protecting?  Zi or the Chinese?  Putin or the Russians?

There is no Bill of Rights protecting government. 

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14767 on: July 04, 2022, 08:29:02 pm »

Nonsequitar.  I was responding to another poster to make the point that people have more to fear from the government than government has to fear from people. 
"Nonsequitar" troll bait. Alan was responding to another poster to make the point that he has more to fear from the government.
And the expected hypocrisy:
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=141060.msg1242313#msg1242313
More fear-mongering exposed as untrue.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2022, 11:06:26 am by digitaldog »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14768 on: July 04, 2022, 08:33:13 pm »

People who put their ideology above all else are intentionally blind to the basic purpose of the Constitution which is not to limit government power or to protect people from government. The fundamental purpose of the Constitution is balance. The purpose is to balance political power, balance judicial power, balance military power, balance individual and collective rights, balance the potential for government tyranny and the tyranny of the mob. Its fundamental purpose includes the need to balance protection of the government AND protection of the people who have elected its principal agents and authorized its powers — not one or the other. There is a lot of balance in the Constitution which gets ignored in favor of black and white antigovernment dogma.

It is their completely unbalanced view of the Constitution that blinds them to viewing it as a whole rather than a selectively edited document. Unfortunately, its highly unlikely that once someone has incorporated a blind adherence to an ideology into their self-image, that you will ever penetrate their rationalizing of it.
I think you're referring to the separation of powers so no one group in government becomes dictatorial. Certainly, the government has enumerated powers defined in the constitution.  Otherwise, we couldn't operate as a country.  But those powers are limited, held very weak to protect the people who are further protected by a Bill of Rights.  The founders were afraid of a strong, central government.  That's what they fought about in the War of Independence on this day, July 4, in the year 1776.  It's why they left much of the power to state government and the people.  Unfortunately, we have given up on many of those freedoms turning them back to them.  A real mistake that SCOTUS is trying to currently correct. 

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14769 on: July 04, 2022, 08:37:01 pm »

I think you're referring to the separation of powers so no one group in government becomes dictatorial.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14770 on: July 04, 2022, 09:34:04 pm »

In the mind's eye of ideological zealots, the Constitution, including the Bill of Rights, looks like one of those heavily redacted documents we see released from time to time. The Second Amendment from the Bill of Rights reads like this to them: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. Of course many just ignore the entirety of the first half of the sentence.

Other sections of the Constitution are equally invisible to them: Article I, Section 8, Clause 15: [The Congress shall have Power . . . ] To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; . . . Clause 16: [The Congress shall have Power . . . ] To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.

They're blind to these sections because they can't admit that the Constitution provides for a strong central government which can enforce its laws and put down rebellion by force. That doesn't go with the "weak government" narrative. This narrative is just a convenient disguise for what has become a twisted antigovernment crusade built on a foundation of lies and half-truths.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 10:15:39 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14771 on: July 04, 2022, 10:02:53 pm »

They are blind to the fact that the very purpose of the Constitutional Convention was to strengthen the central government, to ensure its supremacy over the states, and to provide for an effective means of putting down insurrection and rebellion. They're blind to... Article VI: This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

Their lopsided antigovernment arguments cannot see balance, due to ideologically induced blindness. They see only intentional weakness in the design because they have a selectively edited jigsaw puzzle of a constitution that fits their rigid antigovernment narrative.

The Constitution is not designed for a weak central government. It is designed with a balanced central government. The Constitution provides for a strong central government with consolidated and supreme powers, but without excessively concentrated power in a single person or branch. The strength of the nation, as a whole, comes from its constitutionally consolidated supremacy of power.

That consolidation is derived from its citizens, who have democratically elected, from among themselves, government officials to manage the government and enact laws on our behalf. There is no single entity in the U.S. which is "The Government". That's a fraudulent bogeyman meant to drive a wedge of fear between gullible anxious people and their government.

The United States gets the government it deserves because the people are the government. It isn't imposed on us (yet!). It is chosen by us. Let's hope that we can deserve and sustain a democratic republic into the future.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 10:24:35 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14772 on: July 04, 2022, 10:09:27 pm »

it costs money to [petition the government and] have free speech...

Anyone see a problem with that concept?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14773 on: July 04, 2022, 11:05:56 pm »

They are blind to the fact that the very purpose of the Constitutional Convention was to strengthen the central government, to ensure its supremacy over the states, and to provide for an effective means of putting down insurrection and rebellion. They're blind to... Article VI: This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

Their lopsided antigovernment arguments cannot see balance, due to ideologically induced blindness. They see only intentional weakness in the design because they have a selectively edited jigsaw puzzle of a constitution that fits their rigid antigovernment narrative.

The Constitution is not designed for a weak central government. It is designed with a balanced central government. The Constitution provides for a strong central government with consolidated and supreme powers, but without excessively concentrated power in a single person or branch. The strength of the nation, as a whole, comes from its constitutionally consolidated supremacy of power.

That consolidation is derived from its citizens, who have democratically elected, from among themselves, government officials to manage the government and enact laws on our behalf. There is no single entity in the U.S. which is "The Government". That's a fraudulent bogeyman meant to drive a wedge of fear between gullible anxious people and their government.

The United States gets the government it deserves because the people are the government. It isn't imposed on us (yet!). It is chosen by us. Let's hope that we can deserve and sustain a democratic republic into the future.
[/b]
If the government doesn't stop spending beyond its means to support the demands of the public for "free" stuff, the dilution of our currency will impoverish us ending this experiment in a constitutional republic. 

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14774 on: July 04, 2022, 11:15:19 pm »

There is no single entity in the U.S. which is "The Government". That's a fraudulent bogeyman meant to drive a wedge of fear between gullible anxious people and their government.

Unfortunately, its highly unlikely that once someone has incorporated a blind adherence to an ideology into their self-image, that you will ever penetrate their rationalizing of it.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14775 on: July 05, 2022, 07:58:34 am »

[/b]
If the government doesn't stop spending beyond its means to support the demands of the public for "free" stuff, the dilution of our currency will impoverish us ending this experiment in a constitutional republic.

But in the past you've been for tax concessions to get Amazon to choose one municipality over another?
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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14776 on: July 05, 2022, 10:28:12 am »

Another mass shooting in Illinois but this time with a twist from a gubernatorial candidate https://www.newsweek.com/darren-bailey-lets-move-hours-after-highland-park-shooting-chicago-1721588. What a plucky guy. Always plumbing new lows in public figures, and a Trump man to boot.

The problem with these public events is that they are not hardened against attack, I guess. In this case, however, it's difficult to make the case that there were too many doors.
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PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14777 on: July 05, 2022, 10:35:44 am »

That's true although the Republic still stands.  Our government has run contuously for over two hundred years, a lot more than most others.

But I think we have more to fear from an overreaching government.

Here's an example the Supreme Court ruled "no" to.  Major changes to our economic system should be made democratically by elected representatives voting in Congress and not by unelected officials in government agencies who don't report to the people.  Whether you're for the EPA rules or not, it should be Congress that decides.

Supreme Court curtails EPA’s authority to fight climate change
https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/06/supreme-court-curtails-epas-authority-to-fight-climate-change/

Yet again you are incorrect. Congress passed and Nixon signed the Clean Air Act on which the EPA's actions are based. This act gave the government broad authority to regulate air pollutants including ones not yet recognized. Yet thru some very arcane legal hand-waving, SCOTUS has ignored this democratically passed bill in favor of, for god's sake, the coal companies.
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PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14778 on: July 05, 2022, 10:54:19 am »

Nonsequitar.  I was responding to another poster to make the point that people have more to fear from the government than government has to fear from people.  That's why we have the Bill of Rights protecting people from seizure, testifying against ourselves, free speech, religion, habeas corpus,  etc by an out-of-control government.  Isn't that what Jan 6th is claimed to be about?  A "coup" by a leader?  Who needs protecting?  Zi or the Chinese?  Putin or the Russians?

There is no Bill of Rights protecting government.

I assume you mean nonsequitur. You should look up that term.

I agree that throughout history there are innumerable examples of government oppressing people. But that does not mean one should automatically look at the government with hatred. It is in fact the government that enforces the bill of rights, after all.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #14779 on: July 05, 2022, 11:55:45 am »

But in the past you've been for tax concessions to get Amazon to choose one municipality over another?
deficit spending, inflation, and printing are done by the federal government not states.  The states cannot do these things.   

Competition among states to incentivize commercial companies to open up in their states to create new jobs and increase the wealth of those states has nothing to do with  what the federal government does from Washington DC.  States can only reduce state taxes for companies within their state. They'll get back in spades in the long run in addition to state taxes their employees pay the state.    We've discussed this many times before.  Maybe I'm not explaining it well enough.
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