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Author Topic: Time for a new computer-now?  (Read 730 times)

Eric Brody

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Time for a new computer-now?
« on: July 30, 2020, 11:04:38 am »

I've had a Mac Pro 2013 (trashcan) since it came out. Mostly, it has worked well. I added memory and use two OWC Thunderbays with a RAID for storage. Like many others I'm wondering what the future holds for desktop Macs with the impending "Apple Silicon." It seems likely, even without COVID, that there might be a period of uncertainty and potential confusion. What software will work, what won't? Will printers misbehave? It concerns me given the reported issues with Catalina. I'm still using Mojave. Big Sur is a big unknown.

Lloyd Chambers (I know he's controversial) wonders if it's not time to get the last Mac that will run Mojave, https://macperformanceguide.com. I wonder as well. I know this is a first world problem at a time when the world is in a world of hurt. But my photography is a significant pert of what keeps me sane these days.

I'd love to know what others think, realizing it's all speculation.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 02:14:36 pm by Eric Brody »
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tsinsf

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Re: Time for a new computer-now?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2020, 12:25:07 pm »

I read LC and enjoy his information, but he is indeed very opinionated and he seems to be on a huge rant about Catalina. I think there is a world of difference between using a trashcan Mac at home, connected to a couple of external drives, and practicing your photography hobby, and being a professional with many state of the art devices and pushing the performance to the extreme, which is what I am imagining he is doing. Yes, there are undoubtedly problems with Catalina, but as we all know people using it successfuly don't write the forums. I too have a 2013 MacPro, connected to two external drives, and I use Catalina and have had no problems. I do worry that the move away from Intel base CPUs will decrease the amount of future time Adobe products will be supported on my mac.
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Daverich

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Re: Time for a new computer-now?
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2020, 02:49:28 pm »

About a month ago I got a 2020 Mac Mini to replace my Trashcan. Lloyd Chambers has a set of Photoshop scripts used to test a computerís Photoshop capabilities. My Trashcan is still on Mojave but the Mini is of course, on Catalina. The Mini runs both the Medium and Huge scripts about 30% - 40% faster than the Trashcan. On a side note, I sent Lloyd an email when I discovered that neither computer would run his scripts with the current version of Photoshop. About 15 minutes later I heard back from him with a link to a newer version of the scripts he wanted me to try. They worked right away on both computers. The switch to the Mini also meant going from TB2 to TB3 connectors which doubled the transfer speeds of my external SSD drives. As far as Catalina goes, no problems of any kind so far. The Ďnet is full of horror stories about problems with Mail and lockupís and all kinds of things but none of them have happened to me. I had been considering the 2019 Mac Pro but decided to not go ďall inĒ when Apple announced the switch to ARM, hence the Mini. Itís a big step up from what I had been using and Iíve made the transition to all 64 bit software which I feel leaves me ready for whateverís coming. Thatís the plan at any rate.
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Eric Brody

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Re: Time for a new computer-now?
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2020, 04:11:33 pm »

I'm less concerned about Catalina than I am about Apple Silicon.

As a general principle, I usually stay one OS behind with my computers. I full well realize that all the "horrible" problems do not happen to everyone. I think I was emotionally damaged :-) long ago when there were problems getting printers to work with some new OS. Also, it is uncommon for a new OS to have a feature I want or need, usually they have a feature I DON'T want such as the loss of 32bit apps (I still use Microsoft Office 2011-it works for what I need). I admit my question was tweaked by Lloyd's comments but it has been on my mind ever since Apple announced "Apple Silicon." It's like the pilot who says "hold my beer and watch this-what could possibly go wrong?"
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rdonson

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Re: Time for a new computer-now?
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2020, 05:37:12 pm »

My wife and I each run an iMac 27" and a MBP.  We're running Catalina 10.15.6  - I've had no issues since jumping on Catalina at 10.15.3.  I had to wait on one of my apps to support Catalina otherwise I'd have jumped on 10.15.2.  I usually wait until the .2 release to reduce the number of bugs.

Personally I'm not worried about Apple Silicon. They've made big leaps before and lived to tell about it.  They've been designing their own chips for iPhones and iPads for quite a while and I've got no issues with either of those products. 

Am I going to jump on to the first Macs running Apple Silicone?  That's unlikely as it won't fit with normal upgrade timing.  So.... I can easily wait a year or two to see how the Macs go with Apple Silicon. 

If you've been reading the tech news stories you're  aware that Intel really doesn't have its shit together these days. 
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Regards,
Ron

kers

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Re: Time for a new computer-now?
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2020, 09:15:21 pm »

I don't think that support for intel machines will be less than 10 years from now; they just released a serious expensive MacPro and are going to release some new intel machines.
Rumor is a new iMac ( intel) is coming soon.
However it is done with 32 bits apps . I am on Mojave and have had one problem with the finder ; not showing the contents. A thing LC also had problems with.
Very basic problem in a one year matured system. Would like it if they have a tick tock system; 1 year new 2nd year refined.
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tsinsf

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Re: Time for a new computer-now?
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2020, 11:42:12 pm »

"The Mini runs both the Medium and Huge scripts about 30% - 40% faster than the Trashcan."

Daverich, what is your experience with the Mini and its wimpy internal GPU, or did you get an eGPU? What CPU did you get and how much RAM? I likewise have a 2013 Macpro (32 RAM, 4GB GPU) and have considered a MacMini to tide me over until the new ARM desktops are available and tested, which will probably be at least a year or two. But that becomes less a desirable option economically if I have to buy an eGPU, which seem to be well over $500. I use LR primarily to organize my photos, open photos into Photoshop, and occasionally Merge to HDR. I do all of my photoediting in Photoshop and make heavy use of luminosity masks. Is a wimpy internal GPU likely to be a problem with that workflow?
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rdonson

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Re: Time for a new computer-now?
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2020, 10:55:51 am »

Pieter...

At WWDC this year Apple said that they wouldn't be on Apple Silicon completely for 2 years.  They did say that they will be using Intel for some models during that 2 year period.  After that its Apple Silicon for all of their Macs.

Of course, Apple will support Intel Macs as they do now.  At some point that support will go away just like it does today. 
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Regards,
Ron

FabienP

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Re: Time for a new computer-now?
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2020, 04:17:18 pm »

I'm less concerned about Catalina than I am about Apple Silicon.

As a general principle, I usually stay one OS behind with my computers. I full well realize that all the "horrible" problems do not happen to everyone. I think I was emotionally damaged :-) long ago when there were problems getting printers to work with some new OS. Also, it is uncommon for a new OS to have a feature I want or need, usually they have a feature I DON'T want such as the loss of 32bit apps (I still use Microsoft Office 2011-it works for what I need). I admit my question was tweaked by Lloyd's comments but it has been on my mind ever since Apple announced "Apple Silicon." It's like the pilot who says "hold my beer and watch this-what could possibly go wrong?"

I would be more concerned about the evolution of software quality at Apple (including the operating system) than about their ability to execute a processor architecture switch. The latter was done twice before and was relatively painless for software that was still maintained (i.e. still actively developed by the provider).

The quality of OS releases was worrying ever since they switched to an annual release and focused the business on iDevices. There are no indications that this will improve in the next years.

Cheers,
Fabien
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Daverich

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Re: Time for a new computer-now?
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2020, 01:50:43 pm »

"The Mini runs both the Medium and Huge scripts about 30% - 40% faster than the Trashcan."

Daverich, what is your experience with the Mini and its wimpy internal GPU, or did you get an eGPU? What CPU did you get and how much RAM? I likewise have a 2013 Macpro (32 RAM, 4GB GPU) and have considered a MacMini to tide me over until the new ARM desktops are available and tested, which will probably be at least a year or two. But that becomes less a desirable option economically if I have to buy an eGPU, which seem to be well over $500. I use LR primarily to organize my photos, open photos into Photoshop, and occasionally Merge to HDR. I do all of my photoediting in Photoshop and make heavy use of luminosity masks. Is a wimpy internal GPU likely to be a problem with that workflow?

My new Mini is the 3.2 GHz 6-Core i7 with 64 GB Ram. No eGPU. As I said in my previous post, it runs the Lloyd Chambers Photoshop scripts about 30-40% faster than my 2013 Mac Pro, also with 64 GB ram. In addition, the switch from TB2 ports to TB3 immediately doubled the transfer speed to my external SSD's which are in TB3 enclosures. I don't know what if any functions in Photoshop would benefit from a better GPU, some time spent with Google trying to determine that didn't reveal much. Like you are thinking, my new Mini is a "tide me over" purchase. It was going to be the 2019 Mac Pro until Apple announced the switch to ARM. I've been pleasantly surprised with my Mini, Photoshop is all I really care about speed wise and it's a big step up from what I had been using. As always, YMMV.
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DP

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Re: Time for a new computer-now?
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2020, 02:33:07 pm »

it runs the Lloyd Chambers Photoshop scripts

do those scripts test raw conversion actually ? software like ACR or C1 is ahead in GPU usage vs PS... $0.02
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Daverich

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Re: Time for a new computer-now?
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2020, 02:58:05 pm »

do those scripts test raw conversion actually ? software like ACR or C1 is ahead in GPU usage vs PS... $0.02

They donít  test ACR at all, just a variety of Photoshop functions. If youíre aware of some way to test ACR Iíd be happy to run those tests for comparison. Although, now that I reread your post Iím not quite clear what you mean by ACR vs. Photoshop. As far as I know, Photoshop doesnít work natively with RAW files, only in conjunction with ACR.
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DP

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Re: Time for a new computer-now?
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2020, 05:05:44 pm »

Although, now that I reread your post Iím not quite clear what you mean by ACR vs. Photoshop. As far as I know, Photoshop doesnít work natively with RAW files, only in conjunction with ACR.

ACR code is not PS code (it is not about ACR being launched by PS or Bridge)... so if you mostly work in ACR (I do), what the point to test how PS works ? I for example use PS almost only to launch 3rd party plugins ... so how efficiently or inefficiently PS itself is coded (and what PS functions are using GPU or relay on CPU) is very irrelevant for me
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deanwork

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Re: Time for a new computer-now?
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2020, 10:40:57 am »

Itís not irrelevant for me. Everyone that I know who is a professional, working daily with printmaking and  retouching ( layer masks, lots subtle layer selections, multiple background copies where retouching procedures can be turned on and off or faded with opacity blending )  uses both Photoshop and their raw software of choice  as complementary tools, they were designed as such. Photoshop uses resources in a very different ways from say Lightroom or C1, especially ram.



ACR code is not PS code (it is not about ACR being launched by PS or Bridge)... so if you mostly work in ACR (I do), what the point to test how PS works ? I for example use PS almost only to launch 3rd party plugins ... so how efficiently or inefficiently PS itself is coded (and what PS functions are using GPU or relay on CPU) is very irrelevant for me
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kers

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Re: Time for a new computer-now?
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2020, 12:50:26 pm »

Apple just launched an upgraded imac and iMac pro
iMac pro starts with 10 core now and both imacs can be installed with nanotexture glass , but it will cost you 600$ !
Some buy a monitor for that money...
The RAM and SSD upgrade prices are horrendous- as always.
I pay now 130€ for 1TB Samsung970EVO and about the same for 32GB RAM-
now compare those peares with apples...

The macpro 2019 did not get the 'free' upgrade to a 10 core Xeon...

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DP

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Re: Time for a new computer-now?
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2020, 06:45:50 pm »

Everyone that I know

it is called "bubble"... in my "bubble" people mostly to that in raw converter itself nowadays
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deanwork

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Re: Time for a new computer-now?
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2020, 04:36:12 pm »

By the time you add up the cost of the new glass and add a decent amount of ram your talking serious money.

Add you are still stuck with an srgb display. Itís insane for them to charge that much for that display coating which should be free, and  screwing us on ram  ( it should come with 32 ) just because they can get away with it. Apparently during the economic crisis their stock keeps going up. Giving you 8 gigs of ram is just sad ( like with the mini that voids your warranty if you add your own ram .)  Itís enough to become a damn windows user.




Apple just launched an upgraded imac and iMac pro
iMac pro starts with 10 core now and both imacs can be installed with nanotexture glass , but it will cost you 600$ !
Some buy a monitor for that money...
The RAM and SSD upgrade prices are horrendous- as always.
I pay now 130Ä for 1TB Samsung970EVO and about the same for 32GB RAM-
now compare those peares with apples...

The macpro 2019 did not get the 'free' upgrade to a 10 core Xeon...
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