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Author Topic: Starlink satellite pollution  (Read 1592 times)

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Starlink satellite pollution
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2020, 08:48:59 am »

Surely the larger point must be that whenever a committee decides to table concerns about garbage in order to save money this month, they are engaging in self-delusion. Someone, some day soon, will HAVE to spend the money eventually to clean up that garbage. The knee-jerk desire to push that cost onto some future committee must surely be regarded as a spectacular failure of misaligned incentives.

That's in essence what we do when we relax environmental regulations. You don't save any money, you just defer the costs.

Isn't it astonishing how, even though we're faced with actual REAL evidence every day, we continue the self-delusion every chance we can. And a priori, you would think that the fact of this reality would be most obvious to those whom we would consider "conservative", in the sense they view themselves as realists. Instead we have evolved political alignments based on whether or not a policy results in "corporate" costs/benefits, as if those considerations are primary. It's understandable for people to think selfishly, it's not understandable that we let them.
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Robert

Alan Klein

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Re: Starlink satellite pollution
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2020, 09:15:49 am »

Surely the larger point must be that whenever a committee decides to table concerns about garbage in order to save money this month, they are engaging in self-delusion. Someone, some day soon, will HAVE to spend the money eventually to clean up that garbage. The knee-jerk desire to push that cost onto some future committee must surely be regarded as a spectacular failure of misaligned incentives.

That's in essence what we do when we relax environmental regulations. You don't save any money, you just defer the costs.

Isn't it astonishing how, even though we're faced with actual REAL evidence every day, we continue the self-delusion every chance we can. And a priori, you would think that the fact of this reality would be most obvious to those whom we would consider "conservative", in the sense they view themselves as realists. Instead we have evolved political alignments based on whether or not a policy results in "corporate" costs/benefits, as if those considerations are primary. It's understandable for people to think selfishly, it's not understandable that we let them.
Elon Musk is the darling of the left and can do no wrong because of his green Tesla and storage battery businesses.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Starlink satellite pollution
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2020, 09:25:06 am »

Elon Musk is the darling of the left and can do no wrong because of his green Tesla and storage battery businesses.

With all due respect, wtf are you talking about?
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Robert

Alan Klein

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Re: Starlink satellite pollution
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2020, 09:32:07 am »

With all due respect, wtf are you talking about?
The left likes him and will let him get away with murder. As long as he keeps arguing for green energy, they'll let him pollute space. 

faberryman

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Re: Starlink satellite pollution
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2020, 09:45:50 am »

The left likes him and will let him get away with murder. As long as he keeps arguing for green energy, they'll let him pollute space.

I thought the right loved him because he's giving the middle finger to Gov. Newsom and moving the Tesla plant from California to Texas. Gosh, maybe things aren't black and white in the real world.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Starlink satellite pollution
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2020, 09:49:27 am »

I thought the right loved him because he's giving the middle finger to Gov. Newsom and moving the Tesla plant from California to Texas. Gosh, maybe things aren't black and white in the real world.
I agree. He's smart.  He's also the darling of the right.  Even the middle.  Who can be opposed to Space X.  Those landings are pretty amazing.  He reminds me of Howard Hughes. Brilliant. Entrepreneurial. And a little strange.   

FabienP

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Re: Starlink satellite pollution
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2020, 03:54:51 pm »

Well, I didn't think that competition would come so soon. According to this article, Amazon will invest 10 billion dollars to deploy more than 3,000 satellites.

Since when did the FCC have stewardship of the whole low Earth orbit?

And the formerly bankrupt OneWeb will come with its own satellite constellation, now that UK taxpayers have injected some cash in the venture.

We will definitely need some garbage collection up there. Otherwise we might find an answer to the Fermi paradox sooner than we wanted. My preference would be "It is the nature of intelligent life to destroy itself".  :(

Cheers,
Fabien
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Alan Klein

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Re: Starlink satellite pollution
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2020, 07:59:25 pm »

Well, I didn't think that competition would come so soon. According to this article, Amazon will invest 10 billion dollars to deploy more than 3,000 satellites.

Since when did the FCC have stewardship of the whole low Earth orbit?

And the formerly bankrupt OneWeb will come with its own satellite constellation, now that UK taxpayers have injected some cash in the venture.

We will definitely need some garbage collection up there. Otherwise we might find an answer to the Fermi paradox sooner than we wanted. My preference would be "It is the nature of intelligent life to destroy itself".  :(

Cheers,
Fabien
The Chinese will be right behind Amazon. 

FabienP

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Re: Starlink satellite pollution
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2020, 05:40:33 pm »

The Chinese will be right behind Amazon.

They certainly have the launch capability though they tend to disregard the consequences of their actions in space.

They blew up a satellite a few years ago to show their ability to do so (and match the US) yet forgot to select a low orbit satellite for the test. As a consequence, many debris parts will remain up there as a potential threat for long. More recently, a 25 tons first stage of their big Long March 5 rocket nearly fell on a densely populated area. They didn't have safe de-orbiting protocols because it costs additional weight for the fuel needed to perform the operation.

Space littering with the Chinese will be even worse than with the other players in the field.

Cheers,
Fabien
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Starlink satellite pollution
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2020, 09:22:00 pm »

They certainly have the launch capability though they tend to disregard the consequences of their actions in space.

They blew up a satellite a few years ago to show their ability to do so (and match the US) yet forgot to select a low orbit satellite for the test. As a consequence, many debris parts will remain up there as a potential threat for long. More recently, a 25 tons first stage of their big Long March 5 rocket nearly fell on a densely populated area. They didn't have safe de-orbiting protocols because it costs additional weight for the fuel needed to perform the operation.

Space littering with the Chinese will be even worse than with the other players in the field.

Cheers,
Fabien

The tragedy of the commons, over and over and over again.


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Robert

Alan Klein

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Re: Starlink satellite pollution
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2020, 04:07:16 pm »

dreed

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Re: Starlink satellite pollution
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2020, 08:22:00 am »

I understand the frustration.  But these satellites provide internet access especially in rural areas and remote 3rd world countries that can't have it otherwise.  It will also provide competition and lower prices to traditionally wired internet service in urban areas.

Despite what you're being told, these satellites will not automatically open up Internet access in remote parts of the globe. For a good period of time, they will only service the USA. There are regulatory hurdles in each country that Musk/Bezzos want to target that will need negoitiation with governments on before they're given authority to operate.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Starlink satellite pollution
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2020, 08:34:45 am »

Despite what you're being told, these satellites will not automatically open up Internet access in remote parts of the globe. For a good period of time, they will only service the USA. There are regulatory hurdles in each country that Musk/Bezzos want to target that will need negoitiation with governments on before they're given authority to operate.
Well, that makes sense.  Companies go where the money is first.  But eventually, as the price comes down, internet and phone service will be made available to poorer countries that can't afford building a wired infrastructure or cell towers.   

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