Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: kers on July 25, 2020, 03:05:38 pm
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Dutch article about the problems that arise with the enormous amounts of small satellites that are brought into orbit.
https://tweakers.net/geek/170164/fotograaf-klaagt-over-vele-starlink-satellietstrepen-op-foto-van-komeet-neowise.html
The photo shows an failed attempt to photograph comet Neowise from the Canary Islands.
In this case the Starlink satellites launched by Space-X are covering the sky.
There are plans to bring the amount of satellites up to 12.000 to even 42.000.
New satellites are getting a less reflective coating; I can imagine that is not enough to solve the problem.
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Dutch article about the problems that arise with the enormous amounts of small satellites that are brought into orbit.
https://tweakers.net/geek/170164/fotograaf-klaagt-over-vele-starlink-satellietstrepen-op-foto-van-komeet-neowise.html
The photo shows an failed attempt to photograph comet Neowise from the Canary Islands.
In this case the Starlink satellites launched by Space-X are covering the sky.
There are plans to bring the amount of satellites up to 12.000 to even 42.000.
New satellites are getting a less reflective coating; I can imagine that is not enough to solve the problem.
I understand the frustration. But these satellites provide internet access especially in rural areas and remote 3rd world countries that can't have it otherwise. It will also provide competition and lower prices to traditionally wired internet service in urban areas. What solution or trade off would you recommend?
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This is not only a problem for the amateur photographer; Think of all the scientist and their telescopes.
The basic problem is ; there are no rules; it is wild west. We wil see that in different areas; mars, the Moon, and closer; the Poles.
Space-X does not feel the need to discuss their plans before they launch. Space debris is another problem.
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What do you suggest be done? If Spacex doesn;t do it, someone else in another country will.
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There should be some UN convention about what to do.
At this point it is still like in the old days: ... I was there first...
; Law of the Jungle...
I know that is an illusion, but it would be a more civilized approach.
One thing that might help: the public opinion. Space-X does not want to be seen as an old fashion polluter.
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There should be some UN convention about what to do.
At this point it is still like in the old days: ... I was there first...
; Law of the Jungle...
I know that is an illusion, but it would be a more civilized approach.
One thing that might help: the public opinion. Space-X does not want to be seen as an old fashion polluter.
They seem to be trying to correct some of these issues. Every new technology has problems. When I was a kid, I nearly electrocuted myself trying to make ozone from O2 with electricity. A Nicola Tesla I wasn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlink#Criticism
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NASA has full-time staff tracking man-made objects in orbit. We have to keep track of these things because they cold knock out anything we send up.
It's always the same, we worry about our garbage after the fact. Apparently, it's too difficult to think about it beforehand, as if it comes as a complete surprise every time. You can just imagine the committee meeting at which it was decided to table this issue later.
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I understand the frustration. But these satellites provide internet access especially in rural areas and remote 3rd world countries that can't have it otherwise. It will also provide competition and lower prices to traditionally wired internet service in urban areas. What solution or trade off would you recommend?
I'd suggest we not do it. The internet has not been an unmitigated boon to mankind. IMHO.
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I'd suggest we not do it. The internet has not been an unmitigated boon to mankind. IMHO.
The internet also allows phone calls and messaging. If you live in remote regions of Alaska or Africa, they could be a life-saving tool as could researching a medical procedure with Google to use in an emergency. Internet allows teaching and learning for those who can't attend schools. Emergency weather reports, etc. Aren't these more important than amateurs taking pictures of stars? Certainly, it's worthy of discussion.
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The internet also allows phone calls and messaging. If you live in remote regions of Alaska or Africa, they could be a life-saving tool as could researching a medical procedure with Google to use in an emergency. Internet allows teaching and learning for those who can't attend schools. Emergency weather reports, etc. Aren't these more important than amateurs taking pictures of stars? Certainly, it's worthy of discussion.
Is that what you think the problem is, that pollution is ruining amateur photographers' pictures? I'd be more worried about a bolt crashing through an astronaut's helmet myself.
A quick search on space debris turned up this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_debris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_debris).
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Is that what you think the problem is, that pollution is ruining amateur photographers' pictures? I'd be more worried about a bolt crashing through an astronaut's helmet myself.
A quick search on space debris turned up this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_debris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_debris).
Pieter raised the problem about photography when he started the thread. I responded to his concern. Regarding your concern about Starlink satellites crashing into astronauts, they circle at different elevations then the space station. It's not an issue. Additionally, their locations are avoided during launches. It's similar to jetlines flying at 35,000 feet while small private planes are flying at 2500 feet. Also, starlink satellites are not space junk that could be anywhere. These satellites have a specific orbit and any changes are deliberately made and kept track of. Just like an air traffic controller know where all the planes are, NASA would know as well for satellites. By comparison, during normal traffic, there are 4000 aircraft flying just above the US.
For fun, here's a link to a program where you can see planes anywhere in the world on a real-time basis.. Traffic is a lot lower due to the virus. You can click on a plane and see it's number, where it came from and is going, elevation, speed, etc. THe map show little planes and helicopters as well. CLick BASIC for free test.https://www.flightradar24.com/premium/#featureInfo74
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Pieter raised the problem about photography when he started the thread. I responded to his concern. Regarding your concern about Starlink satellites crashing into astronauts, they circle at different elevations then the space station. It's not an issue. Additionally, their locations are avoided during launches. It's similar to jetlines flying at 35,000 feet while small private planes are flying at 2500 feet. Also, starlink satellites are not space junk that could be anywhere. These satellites have a specific orbit and any changes are deliberately made and kept track of. Just like an air traffic controller know where all the planes are, NASA would know as well for satellites. By comparison, during normal traffic, there are 4000 aircraft flying just above the US.
For fun, here's a link to a program where you can see planes anywhere in the world on a real-time basis.. Traffic is a lot lower due to the virus. You can click on a plane and see it's number, where it came from and is going, elevation, speed, etc. THe map show little planes and helicopters as well. CLick BASIC for free test.https://www.flightradar24.com/premium/#featureInfo74
So anxious to get the messaging out that you didn't read the link again, did you.
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as anyone who has hunted birds would know, there is a lot of empty space between them.
The problem is the duration of the image capture and the number of satellites as is plainly evident in the photo. And yes, that issue existed before, just not on the magnitude proposed.
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I made a dozen or so 20 second exposures of the comet the other night and several of them showed satellite trails. Something I've never seen before in my photography.
I also live in a rural area poorly serviced by Internet service providers and stand to benefit if and when Starlink becomes available to me. Win some, lose some.
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So anxious to get the messaging out that you didn't read the link again, did you.
You're the one not reading them. I looked at it and saw it didn't apply. The Wiki article that you linked to is called "Space Debris". These satellites are not space debris but active satellites with known and tracked orbits.
Heres from your linked article.
"Space debris (also known as space junk, space pollution,[1] space waste, space trash, or space garbage) is a term for defunct human-made objects in space—principally in Earth orbit—which no longer serve a useful function. This can include nonfunctional spacecraft, abandoned launch vehicle stages, mission-related debris and fragmentation debris. Examples of space debris include derelict satellites and spent rocket stages as well as the fragments from their disintegration, erosion and collisions, such as paint flecks, solidified liquids from spacecraft breakups, and unburned particles from solid rocket motors. Space debris represents a risk to spacecraft.[2]"
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You're the one not reading them. I looked at it and saw it didn't apply. The Wiki article that you linked to is called "Space Debris". These satellites are not space debris but active satellites with known and tracked orbits.
Heres from your linked article.
"Space debris (also known as space junk, space pollution,[1] space waste, space trash, or space garbage) is a term for defunct human-made objects in space—principally in Earth orbit—which no longer serve a useful function. This can include nonfunctional spacecraft, abandoned launch vehicle stages, mission-related debris and fragmentation debris. Examples of space debris include derelict satellites and spent rocket stages as well as the fragments from their disintegration, erosion and collisions, such as paint flecks, solidified liquids from spacecraft breakups, and unburned particles from solid rocket motors. Space debris represents a risk to spacecraft.[2]"
Right. The satellites aren't "space debris" until the batteries run out. That changes everything. Did you know that six flashlights in the cupboard take up the same space whether they work or not. I learned that in a physics course in graduate school.
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In defense of Elon, the Starlink satellites are equipped to de-orbit themselves at their end of life. They carry fuel for just that purpose.
Still, it remains a contentious issue.
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This is just the start.
Airplanes traffic is locally different- this is world universal (pollution)
Geostationair satellites would be a solution- but need to be at about 36.000 km height.
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This is just the start.
Airplanes traffic is locally different- this is world universal (pollution)
Geostationair satellites would be a solution- but need to be at about 36.000 km height.
Apparently radio frequencies for 5G won't work that far. So they're stuck with lots of satellites closer to earth. Hopefully they can come up with a resolution for the problems of blocking astronomy, "junk" in orbit, and other technical issues.
It seems to give humanity a lot of advantages. It's like drones or street photography. There are dangers and annoyances. But there are many benefits as well. Hopefully we can find an acceptable compromise and eliminate the most egregious difficulties with the satellites.
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In defense of Elon, the Starlink satellites are equipped to de-orbit themselves at their end of life. They carry fuel for just that purpose.
Still, it remains a contentious issue.
Sadly many geostationary satellites that had such provision failed their deorbiting and are now cluttering that coveted high altitude ring, mostly forever since there is no abrasion due to the atmosphere up there. The saving grace of Starlink is that they operate at LEO (low Earth orbit) of 500 km and would eventually deorbit (aka burn in the atmosphere) by themselves in a few years.
Let's do the math: 12'000 satellites with a lifespan of 5 years, assuming a conservative deorbiting failure of 2 percent, would lead to 240 new dead bricks at LEO every 5 years. Assuming a reentry time of 10 years, there would never be more than about 500 dead bricks in the sky.
But if Starlink is successful, there will surely be competitors. China will want that, too, and what about Europe? Still not fed up with the Galileo sats clock failures? So let's multiply this by 4, 2'000 dead bricks at any given time.
Shall we stop here, before this gets boring? :)
As for photographers and scientists, a clever person will soon invent a pair of glasses with augmented diminished reality that will filter the sat streaks. Same for photos and video clips: Topaz Labs will release a new AI tool to (mostly) remove the ugly artefacts. Sure, it might make existing workflows more complicated, but at least everyone on Earth will be able to download cat videos in 8K. ;D
At least the few percents that can afford it. Because that is the absurd thing in the end: the whole of humanity will have to deal with Starlink pollution even if only a minority will use the service. :-[
Cheers,
Fabien
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Surely the larger point must be that whenever a committee decides to table concerns about garbage in order to save money this month, they are engaging in self-delusion. Someone, some day soon, will HAVE to spend the money eventually to clean up that garbage. The knee-jerk desire to push that cost onto some future committee must surely be regarded as a spectacular failure of misaligned incentives.
That's in essence what we do when we relax environmental regulations. You don't save any money, you just defer the costs.
Isn't it astonishing how, even though we're faced with actual REAL evidence every day, we continue the self-delusion every chance we can. And a priori, you would think that the fact of this reality would be most obvious to those whom we would consider "conservative", in the sense they view themselves as realists. Instead we have evolved political alignments based on whether or not a policy results in "corporate" costs/benefits, as if those considerations are primary. It's understandable for people to think selfishly, it's not understandable that we let them.
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Surely the larger point must be that whenever a committee decides to table concerns about garbage in order to save money this month, they are engaging in self-delusion. Someone, some day soon, will HAVE to spend the money eventually to clean up that garbage. The knee-jerk desire to push that cost onto some future committee must surely be regarded as a spectacular failure of misaligned incentives.
That's in essence what we do when we relax environmental regulations. You don't save any money, you just defer the costs.
Isn't it astonishing how, even though we're faced with actual REAL evidence every day, we continue the self-delusion every chance we can. And a priori, you would think that the fact of this reality would be most obvious to those whom we would consider "conservative", in the sense they view themselves as realists. Instead we have evolved political alignments based on whether or not a policy results in "corporate" costs/benefits, as if those considerations are primary. It's understandable for people to think selfishly, it's not understandable that we let them.
Elon Musk is the darling of the left and can do no wrong because of his green Tesla and storage battery businesses.
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Elon Musk is the darling of the left and can do no wrong because of his green Tesla and storage battery businesses.
With all due respect, wtf are you talking about?
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With all due respect, wtf are you talking about?
The left likes him and will let him get away with murder. As long as he keeps arguing for green energy, they'll let him pollute space.
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The left likes him and will let him get away with murder. As long as he keeps arguing for green energy, they'll let him pollute space.
I thought the right loved him because he's giving the middle finger to Gov. Newsom and moving the Tesla plant from California to Texas. Gosh, maybe things aren't black and white in the real world.
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I thought the right loved him because he's giving the middle finger to Gov. Newsom and moving the Tesla plant from California to Texas. Gosh, maybe things aren't black and white in the real world.
I agree. He's smart. He's also the darling of the right. Even the middle. Who can be opposed to Space X. Those landings are pretty amazing. He reminds me of Howard Hughes. Brilliant. Entrepreneurial. And a little strange.
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Well, I didn't think that competition would come so soon. According to this article (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/07/amazon-gets-fcc-approval-to-launch-3236-low-earth-broadband-satellites/), Amazon will invest 10 billion dollars to deploy more than 3,000 satellites.
Since when did the FCC have stewardship of the whole low Earth orbit?
And the formerly bankrupt OneWeb will come with its own satellite constellation, now that UK taxpayers have injected some cash in the venture.
We will definitely need some garbage collection up there. Otherwise we might find an answer to the Fermi paradox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox) sooner than we wanted. My preference would be "It is the nature of intelligent life to destroy itself". :(
Cheers,
Fabien
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Well, I didn't think that competition would come so soon. According to this article (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/07/amazon-gets-fcc-approval-to-launch-3236-low-earth-broadband-satellites/), Amazon will invest 10 billion dollars to deploy more than 3,000 satellites.
Since when did the FCC have stewardship of the whole low Earth orbit?
And the formerly bankrupt OneWeb will come with its own satellite constellation, now that UK taxpayers have injected some cash in the venture.
We will definitely need some garbage collection up there. Otherwise we might find an answer to the Fermi paradox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox) sooner than we wanted. My preference would be "It is the nature of intelligent life to destroy itself". :(
Cheers,
Fabien
The Chinese will be right behind Amazon.
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The Chinese will be right behind Amazon.
They certainly have the launch capability though they tend to disregard the consequences of their actions in space.
They blew up a satellite a few years ago to show their ability to do so (and match the US) yet forgot to select a low orbit satellite for the test. As a consequence, many debris parts will remain up there as a potential threat for long. More recently, a 25 tons first stage of their big Long March 5 rocket nearly fell on a densely populated area. They didn't have safe de-orbiting protocols because it costs additional weight for the fuel needed to perform the operation.
Space littering with the Chinese will be even worse than with the other players in the field.
Cheers,
Fabien
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They certainly have the launch capability though they tend to disregard the consequences of their actions in space.
They blew up a satellite a few years ago to show their ability to do so (and match the US) yet forgot to select a low orbit satellite for the test. As a consequence, many debris parts will remain up there as a potential threat for long. More recently, a 25 tons first stage of their big Long March 5 rocket nearly fell on a densely populated area. They didn't have safe de-orbiting protocols because it costs additional weight for the fuel needed to perform the operation.
Space littering with the Chinese will be even worse than with the other players in the field.
Cheers,
Fabien
The tragedy of the commons, over and over and over again.
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SpaceX Just Launched 57 New Starlink Satellites With Controversial Sun Shades
https://www.sciencealert.com/spacex-just-launched-57-new-satellites-and-scientists-are-worried-they-will-interfere-with-astronomy
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I understand the frustration. But these satellites provide internet access especially in rural areas and remote 3rd world countries that can't have it otherwise. It will also provide competition and lower prices to traditionally wired internet service in urban areas.
Despite what you're being told, these satellites will not automatically open up Internet access in remote parts of the globe. For a good period of time, they will only service the USA. There are regulatory hurdles in each country that Musk/Bezzos want to target that will need negoitiation with governments on before they're given authority to operate.
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Despite what you're being told, these satellites will not automatically open up Internet access in remote parts of the globe. For a good period of time, they will only service the USA. There are regulatory hurdles in each country that Musk/Bezzos want to target that will need negoitiation with governments on before they're given authority to operate.
Well, that makes sense. Companies go where the money is first. But eventually, as the price comes down, internet and phone service will be made available to poorer countries that can't afford building a wired infrastructure or cell towers.
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a dpreview article about this subject:
https://www.dpreview.com/news/6135236887/astronomers-warn-spacex-starlink-satellites-may-hinder-scientific-observation-and-discovery