US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)

Biden

14 (66.7%)

Trump

7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm

[Alan Klein]

So you think it's ok to use presidential power to harm a corporation that doesn't support him? Do you understand what a democracy is?

Should Trump jail registered Democrats then?

Should he call for a ban on all corporations that don't contribute money to his election?

If a corporation or individual gets political and supports one side or the other, they are opening themselves to political attacks in return.  That's fair game. It's no different than what we do here.  If you don't want to be politically attacked, don't post. Go shoot pictures.  Corporations should do the same. Regarding jail or demanding money would not be acceptable.  But Trump never did those things.  You're creating false charges to smear him. 

[jeremyrh]

Annnnnnnd no. 

The violence in Portland had been going on for 50+ days before Trump sent in federal troops to protect the court house from being burned down.  BTW, what was the federal government suppose to, let it burn down or just take all federal services (courts, social security, etc) out of Portland?  And now, after Trump pulled out those troops, the violence is still going.  You really need to check your news.

Aaaand maybe better to reply to what I actually wrote, and not to some random collection of letters you just made up.

[jeremyrh]

If a corporation or individual gets political and supports one side or the other, they are opening themselves to political attacks in return.  That's fair game. It's no different than what we do here.  If you don't want to be politically attacked, don't post. Go shoot pictures.  Corporations should do the same. Regarding jail or demanding money would not be acceptable.  But Trump never did those things.  You're creating false charges to smear him.

No need to create false charges - he's used his presidency to damage a company solely becasue of his perception that they don't support him. The effect would be the same if he instituted a tax for non-Trump-supporting companies.

[Alan Klein]

No need to create false charges - he's used his presidency to damage a company solely becasue of his perception that they don't support him. The effect would be the same if he instituted a tax for non-Trump-supporting companies.

Obama gave millions to General Motors to bail them out in the 2008 economic crisis.  It was the only way to protect the automobile workers union pension plan that was going broke. It was a payoff to the unions for supporting Obama in the 2008 election.  If they didn't support him, he would have punished them and given them nothing.  How is that different?

[Alan Klein]

Obama punished the oil and coal industries who supported republicans and gave millions to green industries that supported him.   

[kers]

Obama punished the oil and coal industries who supported republicans and gave millions to green industries that supported him.   

Obama just is progressive : he understands burning earth resources is not the way to go ahead. You should understand that too?
Otherwise we would still be in the stone age.
What is the argument against clean energy? That you are not ready for it? Europe is.

[TechTalk]

Obama gave millions to General Motors to bail them out in the 2008 economic crisis.  It was the only way to protect the automobile workers union pension plan that was going broke. It was a payoff to the unions for supporting Obama in the 2008 election.  If they didn't support him, he would have punished them and given them nothing.  How is that different?

Obama punished the oil and coal industries who supported republicans and gave millions to green industries that supported him.   

Is that really what you believe motivated Obama as a person and a politician? A desire to reward and punish people? You believe that's how his personality and mind are wired?

[LesPalenik]

Here is an example of a bold, courageous action:

U.S. President Donald Trump on Wednesday accused Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co (GT.O) of “playing politics” by forbidding workers from wearing hats supporting him, and said he would swap out the Goodyear tires on his limousine if there were an alternative.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-goodyear-trump-boycott/trump-says-not-happy-with-goodyear-would-swap-tires-on-presidential-limo-idUSKCN25F2TQ?il=0

[BernardLanguillier]

The irony of this post is amazing. 

Bernard, you do realize that in the last weeks, the Democratic left were arguing that 2+2=5, because they could just change the deffinition of the elements. 

Woke Twitter users argue that "2+2=5" with no hint of irony at all

Anyway, no he did not say he would not respect the election results.  And no, he is not trying to prevent electors from voting.  (BTW, do you know what an elector is in USA politics?  It is not a citizen.)

How about answering to the point instead of once again avoiding responsibility by blaming somebody else?

Did Trump lie or not time and again about undeniable facts regarding the pandemic even when presented with true objective data?

What does that tell you about his behaviour when presented with election results showing he lost?

Let me help you here: he will either say that he won even if he lost OR that he lost because the elections were rigged.

We know with 100% certainty based on the past 3 years that the elections won’t have to have been rigged for him to say they were. He is going to lie about that too. Not to mention the facts that he is already trying to rig them himself by preventing millions of valid voters from casting a vote through mail,notwithstanding the fact that this is perfectly legal in the US to vote through mail.

So tell me, how does that differ from a third world country dictator and how is this not the end of democracy in the US?

And, bonus question, how do you feel about your own responsibility in supporting this process?

Cheers,
Bernard

[Robert Roaldi]

Trump has good words to say about QAnon, https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/512821-trump-praises-qanon-supporters-they-love-our-country. He states that he doesn't know much about them but that he's heard of them.

[jeremyrh]

Obama gave millions to General Motors to bail them out in the 2008 economic crisis.  It was the only way to protect the automobile workers union pension plan that was going broke. It was a payoff to the unions for supporting Obama in the 2008 election.  If they didn't support him, he would have punished them and given them nothing.  How is that different?

It's dfifferent because it didn't actually happen.  You have invented a motivation that didn't exist except in your paranoid imagination.

[Alan Klein]

Is that really what you believe motivated Obama as a person and a politician? A desire to reward and punish people? You believe that's how his personality and mind are wired?

Politicians reward supporters and punish their enemies. That's why many people support their parties and their candidates.  They're looking for jobs. If Washington changes hands in January, all the Republican appointed people get fired and the new Democrat president would appoint his friends and supporters. "A new broom sweeps clean." That's how it works.

When Obama took over, he arranged for around $800 million to go to a green energy company that contributed to his campaign in addition to the billions he sent to the auto workers union pension fund for their support.  He claimed the reason he did it was because these industries are so important to the country.  It had nothing to do with contributions he got. Sure. On the other hand, Obama cancelled oil and gas company's pipelines and exploration rights.  Trump reversed the situation when he became president supporting the oil and gas companies and pulling us out of Paris accord. Of course, oil and gas supported his campaign.  Both Obama and Trump had philosophical beliefs that gained them support and campaign contributions from certain industries who were then rewarded or punished by the president who came into power. That's how politics works. If Kodak and Fujifilm support my campaign, I promise to keep film coming for years.

[Alan Klein]

It's dfifferent because it didn't actually happen.  You have invented a motivation that didn't exist except in your paranoid imagination.

You should know better by now to call me on something I said as being untruthful much less paranoid.

Obama gave $57 billion to the auto industry.  Part of those funds bailed out the auto workers pension fund that was going broke.  Here's an article showing the support Obama got from the union while he was senator and the debt he owed them. 
https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2016/01/20/obama-recalls-uaw-presidents-early-political-support/79079380/

Here's how the UAW (United Auto Workers) were rewarded at the expense of the bondholders who were punished by Obama and left out to dry.  Obama bragged about it.

"As part of the deal, the U.S. government purchased a majority of shares for each of the companies, and UAW received four times as much equity in General Motors per dollar of debt owed to it than secured bondholders received, which many experts have said is the exact opposite of what usually occurs during standard bankruptcy proceedings."

While the auto industry unions received significant financial support, many private stockholders lost their entire investment.
https://www.heartland.org/news-opinion/news/obama-brags-to-union-workers-about-bailout-of-big-auto

[Robert Roaldi]

Politicians reward supporters and punish their enemies. That's why many people support their parties and their candidates.  They're looking for jobs. If Washington changes hands in January, all the Republican appointed people get fired and the new Democrat president would appoint his friends and supporters. "A new broom sweeps clean." That's how it works.

No, that's how it works in banana republics run by criminal gangs.

I think there's a pretty big difference between political appointees in government departments and what happened at Goodyear Tire the other day. Do you think that corporations are just another government department, then? Because that's a bit at odds with your normal point of view.

You don't want or like democracy, do you. You just want your boy to win and trash the people who vote against him. Sounds a bit Soviet to me.

[Robert Roaldi]

You should know better by now to call me on something I said as being untruthful much less paranoid.

Obama gave $57 billion to the auto industry.  Part of those funds bailed out the auto workers pension fund that was going broke.  Here's an article showing the support Obama got from the union while he was senator and the debt he owed them. 
https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2016/01/20/obama-recalls-uaw-presidents-early-political-support/79079380/

Here's how the UAW (United Auto Workers) were rewarded at the expense of the bondholders who were punished by Obama and left out to dry.  Obama bragged about it.

"As part of the deal, the U.S. government purchased a majority of shares for each of the companies, and UAW received four times as much equity in General Motors per dollar of debt owed to it than secured bondholders received, which many experts have said is the exact opposite of what usually occurs during standard bankruptcy proceedings."

While the auto industry unions received significant financial support, many private stockholders lost their entire investment.
https://www.heartland.org/news-opinion/news/obama-brags-to-union-workers-about-bailout-of-big-auto

Governments of the day often get directly involved in industry sectors. The government bailed out some banks in 2008 for instance. History will judge if those actions were good for the country or not or if it was money well spent. That's not what happened at Goodyear. Not at all. Not even close.

Whose tires will he buy?

[Robert Roaldi]

I'm wondering if Goodyear has any basis for a lawsuit against Trump.

What I guess might happen is that any corporation who thinks that their internal policies are none of the government's business will make healthy election contributions to the other party. The private sector should have some objections about Trump trying to force them to help with his campaign.

[Alan Klein]

No, that's how it works in banana republics run by criminal gangs.

I think there's a pretty big difference between political appointees in government departments and what happened at Goodyear Tire the other day. Do you think that corporations are just another government department, then? Because that's a bit at odds with your normal point of view.

You don't want or like democracy, do you. You just want your boy to win and trash the people who vote against him. Sounds a bit Soviet to me.

Do you think it's fair that Obama went after all the workers in the coal companies for political reasons so he would get the support of the greenies?  Oh sure.  You'll argue that Obama is doing it because he supports a clean environment.  Well, Trump claims he supports free speech.  If Goodyear is allowing one side of the argument, they should allow all sides.  After all shouldn't  all workers be entitled to free speech to make their views known,  Or none at all?  Why is the corporation punishing those who views they disagree with?

So both presidents have "valid" reasons to complain.  By the way, let's not call it Soviet.  When a politician makes a political point, that's fair and free speech and legal.  They're not sending anyone to a Gulag or jail.  Of course financial punishment comes with the turf. It's why corporations, unions and others contribute to campaigns and petition the government.  Some win and some lose.  That's how democracy works.  If Biden wins, don't you expect he'll punish corporations and stockholders with higher taxes and more regulations?  Is that Soviet?

[Robert Roaldi]

If Goodyear is allowing one side of the argument, they should allow all sides. 

You keep repeating this. Does Goodyear allow their employees to promote Biden on company premises? Because I have not read anything in the reports that suggests this.

What do you mean by Goodyear allowing "one side" of the argument? What argument? What did they allow?

[Alan Klein]

I'm wondering if Goodyear has any basis for a lawsuit against Trump.

What I guess might happen is that any corporation who thinks that their internal policies are none of the government's business will make healthy election contributions to the other party. The private sector should have some objections about Trump trying to force them to help with his campaign.

Goodyear can't sue a president for political speech.  Could the coal companies go after Obama for all the nasty things he said about them?

Corporations give money to both parties, if they're smart.  You never know who will win and you want to be in a position where you can say you supported the winner.

[Alan Klein]

You keep repeating this. Does Goodyear allow their employees to promote Biden on company premises? Because I have not read anything in the reports that suggests this.

What do you mean by Goodyear allowing "one side" of the argument? What argument? What did they allow?

Goodyear's policy allows sloganeering for Black Lives Matter but not Blue Lives Matter or All Lives Matter.  So they've taken a political position supporting Biden's views but not Trumps during a presidential election.  So Trump is making an issue of it.Trump is feeding into the anger on the right about Democrats controlled cities that are going after the police and supporting left wing organizations like BLM.  He's reminding voters they have a choice about some big issues.  The left would prefer the voters forget about democrat fecklessness and weakness in the face of riots and mayhem they allowed.