Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?  (Read 3621 times)

Mick Sang

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« on: June 16, 2020, 05:48:24 pm »

Hello Everyone. I hope you and yours are well,

I’ve been asked several times what is the best media type to select for use as a base, reference media for custom profiling of a particular paper and how to select an appropriate reference media for profiling. Out of habit, I used to defer to common recommendations by paper mills for Epson specific media types since those were the media types on which those manufacturers had based their own profiles. For example:  Hahnemuhle. Ilford, MOAB and Canson recommend Velvet Fine art for many if not most of their matte papers. Premium Lustre Photo (and sometimes Premium Glossy) is the most common reference media for many of their photo style papers.

The standard thinking in the Epson world with respect to the media selection on which to base a custom ICC print profile is to select an Epson media which is as close as possible to the paper for which we intend to create a custom profile. Now that makes sense.

But, when we look at Hahnemuhle’s specifications for their profile for Museum Etching or William Turner for example, we see that both are based upon Velvet FA media setting. So, with that I became a tad confused. Velvet Fine Art is a nice, medium weight, cotton paper with little texture and high OBA content. Museum Etching and William Turner are both cotton stocks with different weights, strong texture and no OBAs. The three papers are only alike insofar as they are all white, cotton based papers. Otherwise, they are considerably different. Velvet FA is also the media type setting for Canson Aquarelle, Hahnemuhle Albrecht Durer and Photo Art Canvas which again are nothing like Velvet Fine Art. If anything, Cold Press Natural is closer to Aquarelle, at least in terms of weight and texture. Similarly, for photo-style papers, Premium Lustre is the chosen media setting for Canson Baryta, Platine Rag, Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, Gold Fibre Gloss, Hahnemuhle PR Baryta, Fine Art Baryta and on & on.

So, why are paper manufacturers so attracted to Velvet FA and Premium Lustre as the reference media of choice for so many fine art and photo style papers?

I realise there are many printer specific settings involved which arise as a result of physical attributes of individual papers such as thickness, platen gap, print speed, drying, resolution, vacuum and perhaps even ink load, etc. But, aside form these, most of which can be set in combination with any base media, on what basis are the particular aforementioned papers commonly selected?

Mick
Logged

Rand47

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1882
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2020, 08:26:53 am »

Logged
Rand Scott Adams

datro

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 231
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2020, 10:26:25 am »


So, why are paper manufacturers so attracted to Velvet FA and Premium Lustre as the reference media of choice for so many fine art and photo style papers?

Mick

A couple of thoughts on this...

I think it is both "historical" and a matter of convenience for the paper manufacturers.  VFA and Premium Lustre are two of the oldest media (and media types) from Epson and it is just easier for non-Epson paper manufacturers (and even Epson as well) to select just a few media types to work from when introducing new papers.  They can be pretty certain these two media types will always be present on Epson's printers and it just makes things simpler and more cost-effective since they don't have to constantly track and test with many different media types.  And they can usually assume that these two media types would be "close enough" for the average printer user.

Of course this approach is NOT ideal for users wanting to fully optimize their printing workflow for a given paper, ink, and printer combination.  Before making a profile for a new paper, a series of "media type tests" should be run to determine the best media type.  IMO the most important aspect of a media type is the ink load parameter.  Each media type has a certain ink load setting embedded into it, and by selecting different media types you have the ability to control the "base" ink load being used.  My approach is to use the media selection image from Scott Martin available here.  I print this on a new paper with several different media types and then examine the prints closely to choose the media type which gives overall best DMax, sharpness, color gamut, shadow detail, and dot smoothness.  In some cases, I have chosen a media type different than what is recommended by a paper manufacturer because I can see better results with my printer.

Back to VFA and Premium Luster:  According to Epson's data, the VFA media type has the highest ink load of any of the media types for fine art papers.  And the same goes true for the Premium Luster media type:  it has the highest ink load for photo papers.  Does this factor into why paper manufacturers choose these media types?  I don't really know.  But what I do know is that not all papers look best with the highest ink loads.  This is why choosing a media type is important since it lets you optimize the ink load before you start building a profile.

FWIW
Logged

kers

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4391
    • Pieter Kers
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2020, 11:11:22 am »

It seems HP uses the paper HP premium instant dry gloss photopaper as a reference.
The reason is i think:
It is manufactured to their standards.
It has a high gamut and produces very sharp prints, important for all the calibration purposes.
Also it is made within a narrow margin of thickness as they use it for their basic paper advance calibration.
It is not a very trendy, exclusive nor expensive paper, and widely sold and available.

PS edit.
i see i have misread the question- the above applies to the basic paper for calibrating the printer.
In the case of HP you can choose many ink loads including both glossblack and mattblack together on any paper.
You can choose the one that fits best or apply the choice of the manufacturer of the paper.
Since you can calibrate and make an ICC profile in the printer you have a lot of freedom to do what you like best.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 06:15:38 am by kers »
Logged
Pieter Kers
www.beeld.nu/la

Jonathan Cross

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 645
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2020, 01:48:25 pm »

Hi,

I am confused by this.  I have a Canon Pro 9500  MK2, and want to use 2 Fotospeed papers, Smooth Cotton 300 and Platinum Etching 285.  Fotospeed offer a free custom ICC profile service.  You just print a test chart from them on an A4 sheet of the paper for which you want the profile, making sure the there is no printer or computer control and send it to them with the name and model of the printer.  Within a couple of days they email a custom profile, which can be put into LR or Photoshop on either PC or Mac.  I did it for both these papers and am delighted with the results. 

Best wishes,

Jonathan

Logged
Jonathan in UK

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20650
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2020, 02:57:01 pm »

Just try differing (Epson) media settings using the document below, pick the one with the best tonal/color separation and profile with that:
http://digitaldog.net/files/InkDensity.zip
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Mick Sang

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2020, 04:21:34 pm »

Quote
Hi,

I am confused by this.  I have a Canon Pro 9500  MK2, and want to use 2 Fotospeed papers, Smooth Cotton 300 and Platinum Etching 285.  Fotospeed offer a free custom ICC profile service.  You just print a test chart from them on an A4 sheet of the paper for which you want the profile, making sure the there is no printer or computer control and send it to them with the name and model of the printer.  Within a couple of days they email a custom profile, which can be put into LR or Photoshop on either PC or Mac.  I did it for both these papers and am delighted with the results. 

Best wishes,

Jonathan

Great, but what was the base reference media setting? Why did you select it? There has to be a reference media for prints made for custom profiling.

Mick
Logged

Jonathan Cross

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 645
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2020, 02:21:03 am »

Both the papers are matte, so I clicked that.

Jonathan
Logged
Jonathan in UK

Stephen G

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 173
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2020, 03:16:34 am »

I think datro said it right. History and convenience (lazyness?) on the part of the manufacturers play a significant role.

I recently started using Hahnemuhle's Cezanne canvas. The recommended media type is, of course, VFA. I tested this with the Scott Martin media test image and the result was obvious over-inking. I switched to the "Canvas Matte" setting in the driver (I'm using ver. 6.79 with a P9000) and got great results on the media test and the subsequent profile.

+1 to the advice that the best way to select media type is to test

Add to this the media handling aspect of a media choice: the printer handles fine art paper differently to canvas. I think that Epson builds Paper Feed Adjustment settings into the media settings. When I use the Canvas Matte setting I mentioned above I get prints that are close to 100% accurate in length. When I use VFA for a canvas then I get short prints.
Logged

Panagiotis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 442
    • Fine Art Print
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2020, 05:43:05 am »

So, why are paper manufacturers so attracted to Velvet FA and Premium Lustre as the reference media of choice for so many fine art and photo style papers?

They don't know well the printers and they are lazy to find the optimal media types for their papers.
Logged

Mick Sang

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2020, 05:07:42 pm »

Quote
Both the papers are matte, so I clicked that.

Jonathan

I confess that my exposure with Canon's print system is extremely minimal. But, I did assist someone recently in creating a custom profile for a particular third party matte stock for a Canon P10, I think it was, for which no profile existed. In order for the profile to be made, the owner of the Canon printer had to select a particular media type such as Canon Pro Premium Matte, if memory serves. Don't hold me to that, though. If the setting in the Canon world is simply "matte," I find that strange and it certainly doesn't work that way for Epson printers. As I said, though, I don't know much about the Canon driver.

Regardless, you mentioned that you were happy with the profile that you received. As I said, that's great. But, the point is could it have been better, worse or any different at all  by selecting a different reference media base than that which was used for the creation of the profile you received? I wonder also what if, any instruction, you received from Fotospeed regarding how to print their charts. Normally, a suggestion of media type setting would be provided.

Mick
Logged

Mick Sang

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2020, 10:21:58 pm »

Quote
I think it is both "historical" and a matter of convenience for the paper manufacturers.

This makes some sense to me because we have not seen nor found any other reason.

The time afforded us by our new Covid-19 world has allowed my colleagues and me the freedom to explore this issue. We want to try to determine the actual differences between prints and profiles made using various media type settings, why one paper is selected over another and finally to try to answer why Velvet FA and Premium Lustre seem to be the go-to media selections for so many paper manufacturers if indeed there is another reason aside from simple historical convenience?

Quote
Back to VFA and Premium Luster:  According to Epson's data, the VFA media type has the highest ink load of any of the media types for fine art papers.  And the same goes true for the Premium Luster media type:  it has the highest ink load for photo papers.

Years ago, a rumour to this effect was in circulation claiming that Premium Lustre was used as a media setting because it produced a greater ink load so as to properly fill the hills and valleys of lustre texture.  Velvet FA has also been said to deliver a heavier ink load, as you’ve pointed out. But, I never have found or heard any reasons for that one. Nevertheless, the suggestion was therefore to use those media types for profiling if you wanted to get a better ink load and more punch to your prints.

Quote
+1 to the advice that the best way to select media type is to test

To check this out, we decided to run some test prints using various media settings for photo-style (PK) and fine art matte (MK) papers. The purpose was to compare the results in terms of colour, tonal rendering and D-max.  The PK prints were made on Canson Baryta and the MK prints on Ultra Premium Presentation Matte.

For the PK prints the settings we tested were: Baryta, Legacy Baryta, Legacy Platine, Exhibition Fibre, Premium Gloss, Premium Lustre, Premium Semi-Matte, Metallic Photo Paper Glossy and Metallic Photo Paper Lustre.

In the realm of matte papers the (MK) print settings we tested were: Hot Press Bright, Hot Press Natural, Cold Press Bright, Cold Press Natural, Velvet FA, Fine Art Matte, Legacy Etching, Legacy Fibre,  Legacy Textured and UltraSmooth FA.

The test image was a collage which consists of 9 pics from the Roman-16 collection plus a grey ramp, colour scales and the “RGB Xplorer 8” chart from HERE.

Using an i1Pro2 we read all grey and colour scales and compared the results in Patch Tool and QTR Data Tool. The prints were also evaluated visually in a D50 viewing booth versus the digital test image on a calibrated display.

With respect to the PK prints first, our tests showed the above mentioned rumour regarding the Premium Lustre media setting delivering a greater ink load to be completely false. Lustre has the same ink load to D-max as every other photo style media setting that we tested. They all provided the same D-max within +/-.02. Virtually identical D-max was also achieved between all matte paper media settings, as well.

Visually it was difficult to distinguish any difference between the PK prints. The results appeared to be identical among all photo-style prints with all of the various media type settings. So, using QTR Data Tool we graphed the grey curves which when overlaid were virtually identical in shape and slope and position. They registered perfectly.

Using Patch Tool we checked the Avg. dE differences between the grey ramps and colour scales. The maximum difference that we found between all the above mentioned media settings was Avg dE 0.89 which was the difference between the Baryta and Legacy Platine media settings. The other media settings were far lower (Avg dE 0.17 to 0.66). Prints with all media settings were, therefore, visually identical. Also the d-max readings from every print were confirmed to be the same regardless of media setting.

Among the matte (MK) papers some slight differences were apparent. For example, the print from the Velvet FA setting is almost identical to print from the Fine Art Matte setting. But both are slightly darker than all other media settings by up to L*3 in the upper quarter-tones down to about the 60% midtone level after which, i.e. in the shadows, they are again equal to all other prints from other media settings.

The maximum difference between Velvet FA and Fine Art Matte is Avg dE: 0.34. Together they differ from all other media settings by Avg dE 2.77 to 3.09. All the other media settings compared to one another well below an Avg dE 0.70. In other words they are visually identical in terms of colour and tone. Using QTR Data Tool we graphed the grey curves which when overlaid were virtually identical in shape and slope. The prints also visually appeared to be identical. The graphs for Velvet FA and Fine Art Matte prints also equated and showed them to be slightly darker in the quartertones down to to 60% after which they aligned with all others. This was also seen to be true by a comparison of the prints.

Visually, the prints made with the Velvet FA and Fine Art Matte media settings appeared slightly darker in the quarter to midtone which agrees with graphs of the grey ramps for those prints in Data Tool. Also, the D-max of all matte prints from all media settings was identical.

I do not see any advantage to the fact that the Fine Art Matte and Velvet FA media settings produced a slightly darker result primarily in the quartertones. We saw no difference in dot shape, formation or image sharpness or tone separation in any of the prints.

At this stage, it appears that there really is very little actual or any visual difference between prints from all the various PK media settings. Also, with the exception of Velvet FA and Fine Art Matte settings which provide slightly darker results in the quarter to midtones, the majority of MK media settings also yield visually identical prints. So, it seems to me that manufacturers probably have based their media type selections upon the ‘historical’ and for 'convenience' but for no other good reason.

At this time, these tests also appear to confirm that the best approach for selecting a reference media type for custom profiling is to select a media for its similarity to the subject paper to be profiled.

All of this is based upon what we have seen so far. These tests were run once on one printer, a SureColor P9570. YMMV. However, I have run the d-max test several times in the past over may selected media settings and found the same result. Nevertheless, we remain open minded. If anyone can provide good reason and evidence to support another finding or approach, I would appreciate it if you would share it.

Be well,

Mick


Logged

JRSmit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 922
    • Jan R. Smit Fine Art Printing Specialist
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2020, 02:45:53 am »

Mick,
Thanks for the comprehensive coverage. A question: quarter-tones, It is for me not clear what you mean , can you elaborate on that?

VFAP and FAM appear on my scp9500 also identical. For matte papers where on the scp9000 I would use WCRW, on the scp9500 I would use USFAP, which gives a different inkload  buildup from say mid grey to black.

Will combine my measurements in graphs and present them here.


Logged
Fine art photography: janrsmit.com
Fine Art Printing Specialist: www.fineartprintingspecialist.nl


Jan R. Smit

TeamG

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 26
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2020, 03:35:20 am »

FWIW I've been preparing to profile some Canson on my new 7560 (your 7570)

Canson Rag Photographique I personally felt was a touch more vibrant on the Epson UltraSmooth Fine Art compared to Velvet Fine Art so will profile against that

Canson Edition Etching felt best on VFA, bit muted on others

Both Canson Platine and Baryta I didn't stray from Luster 260, but, I found* that there was noticeably less speckling in the shadows/darks using Unidirectional as opposed to Bidirectional and think I have landed on about -10% density

I used the Onsite Media Media Selection Image and this is just from eyeballing the output and looking under a magnifying glass - I am *not* an expert in this space...

*by accident I discovered uni seems to make a difference to bi when I was experimenting and found a -5% density that was better than the Canson recommended -15%.  Then worked out the -5% I had set to uni and the -15% was still bi.  Changed the setup on the other tests and uni was a def improvement

Unfortunately I did the media tests after I had printed a heap of targets, so will have to redo a few - ah well, it's only rainforests right?

Glenn
Logged

unesco

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 254
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2020, 03:55:48 am »

Just try differing (Epson) media settings using the document below, pick the one with the best tonal/color separation and profile with that:
http://digitaldog.net/files/InkDensity.zip

Hi, simple practical question - how to print the image: to switch off color management for each selected media type or use driver built in profile?
The first will make all results comparable, but not sure if real, the second will be falsed by the profile.
Any suggestion would be appreciated.
Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20650
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2020, 09:21:28 am »

Yes, print the ramp as you would the target. No CMS.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Mick Sang

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2020, 10:21:25 am »

Quote
A question: quarter-tones, It is for me not clear what you mean , can you elaborate on that?

Jan,

Quartertones are those which are above hilights and before midtones. So, roughly 25% - 45%. Three quarter tones are those between midtone and shadow.

Mick
Logged

Mick Sang

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2020, 10:26:39 am »

Quote
Hi, simple practical question - how to print the image: to switch off color management for each selected media type or use driver built in profile?
The first will make all results comparable, but not sure if real, the second will be falsed by the profile.
Any suggestion would be appreciated.

Good question, thank you. Of course I should have pointed out one of the most important aspects of the test prints i.e. they were all printed from ACPU. My apologies for missing that in the report.

Mick
Logged

Mick Sang

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2020, 11:05:06 am »

Quote
For matte papers where on the scp9000 I would use WCRW, on the scp9500 I would use USFAP, which gives a different inkload  buildup from say mid grey to black

If memory serves, I seem to recall seeing some difference in D-max etc., years ago, from WCRW. I will add that to our tests.

Mick
Logged

JRSmit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 922
    • Jan R. Smit Fine Art Printing Specialist
Re: Where’s the magic in reference media for ICC profiles?
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2020, 03:58:30 am »

Jan,

Quartertones are those which are above hilights and before midtones. So, roughly 25% - 45%. Three quarter tones are those between midtone and shadow.

Mick
Mick, thanks for the clarification.
Logged
Fine art photography: janrsmit.com
Fine Art Printing Specialist: www.fineartprintingspecialist.nl


Jan R. Smit
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up