PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[Jeremy Roussak]

To my ears, that sounds like hyperbole raised to the level of absurdity.

Yes, dear. It was intended to be.

Jeremy

[kers]

Covid rules shutdown your right to earn a living and destroyed people's livelihoods.  Big difference.

...all not important if you are dead.

[chez]

Covid rules shutdown your right to earn a living and destroyed people's livelihoods.  Big difference.

You still believe that if we just let Covid run wild people would merrily be going to work everyday. Think again. Didn't Trump force those meat packers to work after they had an outbreak in their plant.

[PeterAit]

Sweden didn't think so.

To their dismay. Compared with neighbors Denmark and Norway, which had much tighter covid restrictions than Sweden, the latter had more illnesses, more deaths, and a significantly greater decline in GDP. So, citing Sweden as an argument for loosening things up is just a demonstration of ignorance.

[Alan Klein]

Big difference is that there isn't an exponentially growing risk that 18-wheelers smash into peoples' living rooms. 

As you are well aware, NYC had refrigerator trucks parked on a pier because the morgue was full. I don't remember seeing that happen after a traffic accident.

Tell that to the guy who can't feed his kids any more.

[jeremyrh]

Tell that to the guy who can't feed his kids any more.

Tell that to the guy who's dead.

[MattBurt]

Yeah, my dead friend's teenage daughter no longer has any parents.
I bet she would have preferred a temporary dip in their income to being orphaned.

[jeremyrh]

There's a common myth and misconception regarding Sweden that there was little to no change in daily life and that the government did little or nothing in mitigation actions. Sweden took considerably less aggressive mitigation actions than other countries, particularly at the national level. However, Sweden did take some government actions, such as imposing limits on the size of gatherings, banning visits to nursing homes, and new regulations on bars and restaurants, to mitigate the spread. Generally, however, Sweden relied much more on advice and voluntary efforts than did other similar countries. Daily life in Sweden did change, though not to the extent seen elsewhere.

Additionally Sweden provided full pay when people were isolating due to Covid symptoms or tracing, and another factor is that Swedes are generally less unhealthy than US and UK.

[faberryman]

Tell that to the guy who can't feed his kids any more.

I thought he was collecting more in unemployment benefits than he would have been earning by working anyway. Besides, he was probably working for one of those zombie companies, and would have lost his job eventually anyway. So it is really a timing issue. No reason to raise taxes or print money to help him out. He'll eventually get a job with one of the good companies, and it will be better for the economy all around. Pretty much a win-win for everybody.

[Alan Klein]

You still believe that if we just let Covid run wild people would merrily be going to work everyday. Think again. Didn't Trump force those meat packers to work after they had an outbreak in their plant.

That wasn't my point.  I was making an ethical comparison between using masks to save lives and allowing people to work so they don't starve.  It's not an either/or ethical question.  It's a conundrum.  Arguing one side is more ethical than the other is wrong.  That's what we've been doing for all these pages.  Both sides are good.  Both sides are bad.  Taking an all or nothing position on either side gets us nowheres.  Do you have a compromise you can live with?

[Robert Roaldi]

...  It's a conundrum.  ...

No it's not. It's a work re-design and logistical challenge that needs to be solved, and if people got their heads out of their asses and devised sensible ways to fix these problems and spent less time whining like 10 year olds and calling each other names, we'd be much further ahead.

[Alan Klein]

No it's not. It's a work re-design and logistical challenge that needs to be solved, and if people got their heads out of their asses and devised sensible ways to fix these problems and spent less time whining like 10 year olds and calling each other names, we'd be much further ahead.

But many different methods and approaches are occuring at least here in America.  We have 50 states and 50 governors, each who are making their own rules to meet their state's needs economically, socially, medically, and culturally.  Are all 50 wrong, right or what?  Trump's got nothing to do with it.  He's just a target because of the election.  On the ground, each state government and local governments are making the decisions.

Here's an example.  NYS just put additional states on the quarantine list, 43 I believe it is.  NY Gov Cuomo said he'd put New Jersey on the list because its rates have escalated lately.  But NJ and CT commuters go to NYC so if they did that, NYC would have to shut down for business and put fences up at the George Washington Bridge and Hudson River tunnels.  So it will be more risky.  I just drove into NYC for dental work and back in NJ now. SHould they have quarantined me?  What would you do if you were governor?

[Robert Roaldi]

But many different methods and approaches are occuring at least here in America.  We have 50 states and 50 governors, each who are making their own rules to meet their state's needs economically, socially, medically, and culturally.  Are all 50 wrong, right or what?  Trump's got nothing to do with it.  He's just a target because of the election.  On the ground, each state government and local governments are making the decisions.

Here's an example.  NYS just put additional states on the quarantine list, 43 I believe it is.  NY Gov Cuomo said he'd put New Jersey on the list because its rates have escalated lately.  But NJ and CT commuters go to NYC so if they did that, NYC would have to shut down for business and put fences up at the George Washington Bridge and Hudson River tunnels.  So it will be more risky.  I just drove into NYC for dental work and back in NJ now. SHould they have quarantined me?  What would you do if you were governor?

What I would do is irrelevant.

If we can put men on the moon, we can figure out how to change job design to accommodate masks and distancing. I see it going on around me all the time, have done for months now.

[chez]

What I would do is irrelevant.

If we can put men on the moon, we can figure out how to change job design to accommodate masks and distancing. I see it going on around me all the time, have done for months now.

Yep, Walmart came out and made masks mandatory in their stores. Parking lot still full so I guess people can adapt.

[degrub]

What I would do is irrelevant.

If we can put men on the moon, we can figure out how to change job design to accommodate masks and distancing. I see it going on around me all the time, have done for months now.

Except for the time it takes to construct a new meat packing facility (12-18 mo.) so that workers can spread out,  temp control and air flow reworked, we have to work with what we have.. Meanwhile, you either shutdown or deal with the outbreaks as they happen.

The same sort of issue is true for other jobs that require hands on. You should see the kind of work crew modifications we are doing in order to limit spread while we going through a 3 month turnaround inna major petrochemical plant. Seating for lunch is the easiest part. Meanwhile the rest of the company is working from home.

[Alan Klein]

Except for the time it takes to construct a new meat packing facility (12-18 mo.) so that workers can spread out,  temp control and air flow reworked, we have to work with what we have.. Meanwhile, you either shutdown or deal with the outbreaks as they happen.

The same sort of issue is true for other jobs that require hands on. You should see the kind of work crew modifications we are doing in order to limit spread while we going through a 3 month turnaround inna major petrochemical plant. Seating for lunch is the easiest part. Meanwhile the rest of the company is working from home.

Meanwhile, Covid interference with the meat packing and shipping in US plants is causing the murder rate to go up in Nicaragua. Side effects when the economy is damaged:

In Nicaragua, supplying beef to the U.S. comes at a high human cost
When outbreaks of COVID-19 at meat processing plants in the U.S. slowed production, American wholesalers and grocery chains turned to foreign beef suppliers. Producers in the small country of Nicaragua were happy to fulfill U.S. demand -- but doing so has come at a high cost for local communities.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/in-nicaragua-supplying-beef-to-the-u-s-comes-at-a-high-human-cost

[LesPalenik]

Another reason to switch to chick peas and broccoli.

[Alan Klein]

If America doesn't know what it's doing, why are other countries having problems again?  I thought they had it all figured out.  US election politics wouldn't have anything to do with it, would it?   Why is CHina able to control it? Is it only their police power?  Or is it something else?

Ireland To Impose 6-Week National Lockdown, Estimates 150,000 Job Losses
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/10/20/925811935/ireland-to-impose-six-week-national-lockdown-estimates-150-000-job-losses

Chaos and fury as Boris Johnson forces curbs on Greater Manchester
Andy Burnham warns of real hardship after bitter standoff over support package
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/20/burnham-says-government-playing-with-peoples-lives-as-tier-3-covid-rules-imposed

[jeremyrh]

If America doesn't know what it's doing, why are other countries having problems again? 

Does that sentence make sense in your head?  "If a dog eats a cat how old is a halibut?"

[Alan Klein]

Does that sentence make sense in your head?  "If a dog eats a cat how old is a halibut?"

Read the whole post.  Everyone else knows what i'm talking about.