PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[Alan Klein]

How is that a deflection. USA has the most deaths and cases in the world...continues to have a death rate of around 1,000 per day and has a rising infection number per day. What exactly is being deflected here...you are trying to make Europe sound bad and like I said...many countries in Europe are not as wealthy as the USA, so comparing them to the USA does not make sense. Right now the USA is in a race with Brazil and India to see which country ends up with the most deaths from the virus...both countries not at the same wealth level as the US.

Your first post wasn't referring to South America. You were referring to third world nations in Europe.  France, Italy, Great Britain et al which are having another bad time of it are not third world nations.  Stop moving the goalposts.

[Alan Klein]

To my ears, that sounds like hyperbole raised to the level of absurdity.

It's not absurd.  Why not make it illegal to drive a car?  After all, think of all the deaths you could avoid. Why do we accept accidents and deaths from vehicular accidents when people have to drive to work to feed their families but not accept disease and deaths when people have to risk covid deaths going to work to feed their families?  Where is the difference?  Living is unsafe.  A construction worker takes a chance every time he steps up a ladder. My wife and I are fortunate that we're retired and get retirement checks every month. But what are the people going to do who have no income because they've lost their jobs permanently?  Will they be out on the streets homeless with their kids looking for scraps of food?  Who are you to say to them you're more valuable than their kids?

[jeremyrh]

It's not absurd.  Why not make it illegal to drive a car?  After all, think of all the deaths you could avoid. Why do we accept accidents and deaths from vehicular accidents when people have to drive to work to feed their families but not accept disease and deaths when people have to risk covid deaths going to work to feed their families?  Where is the difference?  Living is unsafe.  A construction worker takes a chance every time he steps up a ladder. My wife and I are fortunate that we're retired and get retirement checks every month. But what are the people going to do who have no income because they've lost their jobs permanently?  Will they be out on the streets homeless with their kids looking for scraps of food?  Who are you to say to them you're more valuable than their kids?

You seem to have missed the point about this situation - it's a virus. It spreads and grows at an exponential rate.  If you do nothing the number of victims doubles and doubles and doubles again. There is no parallel with driving or climbing a ladder. - ladders don't get more dangerous week by week! You may find it convenient to believe nonsense about "bringing economic disaster on ourselves" but the obvious truth is that there is no real alternative to combating the root cause, and this is the only way to rescue the economy.

[TechTalk]

Why not make it illegal to drive a car?  After all, think of all the deaths you could avoid.

To my ears, that sounds like hyperbole raised to the level of absurdity.

but not accept disease and deaths when people have to risk covid deaths going to work to feed their families?

Transportation, including driving cars, is a daily activity. A pandemic like Covid-19 hasn't been seen in a century. Efforts to mitigate the spread and death toll of a new and highly contagious virus are a disaster response to a very rare occurrence, not something that has been a common daily activity for 100-years.

Where is the difference?

Unsafe driving is, thankfully, not highly contagious.

[LesPalenik]

It's not absurd.  Why not make it illegal to drive a car?  After all, think of all the deaths you could avoid. Why do we accept accidents and deaths from vehicular accidents when people have to drive to work to feed their families but not accept disease and deaths when people have to risk covid deaths going to work to feed their families?  Where is the difference?  Living is unsafe.  A construction worker takes a chance every time he steps up a ladder. My wife and I are fortunate that we're retired and get retirement checks every month. But what are the people going to do who have no income because they've lost their jobs permanently?  Will they be out on the streets homeless with their kids looking for scraps of food?  Who are you to say to them you're more valuable than their kids?

When comparing car driving and Covid situation, it is actually quite similar. With Covid, they want to save your life by proper distancing and wearing a mask, whereas when driving a car, they want also you to keep a safe distance from other cars while imposing rather impractical speed limits. I'd rather wear a mask if they removed the current speed limit of 100kmh (60mph).  Germans don't wear any masks when driving their Audis and BMWs at 250kmh on the Autobahn, and their accident and virus deaths are lower than in America.

[Alan Klein]

You seem to have missed the point about this situation - it's a virus. It spreads and grows at an exponential rate.  If you do nothing the number of victims doubles and doubles and doubles again. There is no parallel with driving or climbing a ladder. - ladders don't get more dangerous week by week! You may find it convenient to believe nonsense about "bringing economic disaster on ourselves" but the obvious truth is that there is no real alternative to combating the root cause, and this is the only way to rescue the economy.

Sweden didn't think so.

[Alan Klein]

To my ears, that sounds like hyperbole raised to the level of absurdity.

Transportation, including driving cars, is a daily activity. A pandemic like Covid-19 hasn't been seen in a century. Efforts to mitigate the spread and death toll of a new and highly contagious virus are a disaster response to a very rare occurrence, not something that has been a common daily activity for 100-years.

Unsafe driving is, thankfully, not highly contagious.

39,000 Americans died last year in vehicle accidents.  Yesterday my wife and I took a pleasure drive into the country to see the fall foliage and go walking in the woods. No one stopped us or said we were evil, reckless and careless about other people's health and lives.  Yet, if a man wants to go to work to feed his family, he has less rights than I do.  Doesn't seem ethical , fair, reasonable, or smart to me.  Maybe we should issue chits for time spent on the roads to reduce accidents, maiming and deaths.  You only get two hours a month to drive for pleasure.  We'll sync it with Google driving app. Then if they catch you on the road, you go to jail for one week.  That would eliminate thousands of deaths every year.  Seems like a solid plan to me. 

[TechTalk]

When comparing car driving and Covid situation, it is actually quite similar. With Covid, they want to save your life by proper distancing and wearing a mask, whereas when driving a car, they want also you to keep a safe distance from other cars while imposing rather impractical speed limits. I'd rather wear a mask if they removed the current speed limit of 100kmh (60mph).  Germans don't wear any masks when driving their Audis and BMWs at 250kmh on the Autobahn, and their accident and virus deaths are lower than in America.

Not to mention the stop signs and traffic lights to control your movement. There are metering lights for busy freeways to mitigate congestion and impose a capacity limit. Even your car can exceed a legal safe passenger capacity. And if a disastrous accident occurs, the road may be closed.

[TechTalk]

Yesterday my wife and I took a pleasure drive into the country to see the fall foliage and go walking in the woods. No one stopped us or said we were evil, reckless and careless about other people's health and lives.

Could that be because you weren't reckless and careless in your driving? And if you do engage in careless and reckless driving that endangers public safety, should you be prevented from doing so?

[TechTalk]

Maybe we should issue chits for time spent on the roads to reduce accidents, maiming and deaths.  You only get two hours a month to drive for pleasure.  We'll sync it with Google driving app. Then if they catch you on the road, you go to jail for one week.  That would eliminate thousands of deaths every year.  Seems like a solid plan to me.

Tech Tip: When your absurd hyperbole amplifier is cranked up to 11, it tends to distort the sound.

[chez]

Your first post wasn't referring to South America. You were referring to third world nations in Europe.  France, Italy, Great Britain et al which are having another bad time of it are not third world nations.  Stop moving the goalposts.

Not 3rd world, but their GDP's are much less than the US. The US is looked at as one of the leading G7 nations...yet it's battling 3rdish world countries like Chile for the worst death rate per capita. For a country with a wealth status like the US as well as the amount of money it spends on health care annually...it's sure a poor showing no matter how you spin things Alan.

[chez]

It's not absurd.  Why not make it illegal to drive a car?  After all, think of all the deaths you could avoid. Why do we accept accidents and deaths from vehicular accidents when people have to drive to work to feed their families but not accept disease and deaths when people have to risk covid deaths going to work to feed their families?  Where is the difference?  Living is unsafe.  A construction worker takes a chance every time he steps up a ladder. My wife and I are fortunate that we're retired and get retirement checks every month. But what are the people going to do who have no income because they've lost their jobs permanently?  Will they be out on the streets homeless with their kids looking for scraps of food?  Who are you to say to them you're more valuable than their kids?

Do you honestly think the economy would have been better off if there were zero Covid restrictions put in place. Party on at the beach and bars. You Alan have been scared for months from venturing out of your house...could you imagine your fear if 10x as many people were dieing. How many people do you think would be going to restaurants, bars, theatres...even work if their neighbours were all dieing? Could you imagine the fights going on when someone sneezes on a bus...people would be getting killed.

I think your view that the economy would just keep ticking like before is very naive.

[chez]

When comparing car driving and Covid situation, it is actually quite similar. With Covid, they want to save your life by proper distancing and wearing a mask, whereas when driving a car, they want also you to keep a safe distance from other cars while imposing rather impractical speed limits. I'd rather wear a mask if they removed the current speed limit of 100kmh (60mph).  Germans don't wear any masks when driving their Audis and BMWs at 250kmh on the Autobahn, and their accident and virus deaths are lower than in America.

Exactly right. We have speed limits in place, intersection lights, stop signs, cross walks, speed bumps etc... in efforts to make driving more safe...just like we have masks, social distancing, washing hands, infection tracking and isolation in efforts to make life with Covid more safe.

[chez]

Sweden didn't think so.

Sweden's death rate per capita is very high, their economy has crashed so their experiment did not work out.

[faberryman]

I am not sure that "there are a lot of countries as bad as us" is really a winning argument. I mean if your football team is 1-6, I am not sure that the fans would be all that sympathetic if the coach said that a couple of other teams are 0-7, particularly if there is no salary cap and your team has one of the highest payrolls. The fans might even think it was time for a coaching change. I kind of think the US ought to go to the Super Bowl every year.  When they don't, I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed in the US response to COVID. Aren't you?

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Sweden's death rate per capita is very high, their economy has crashed so their experiment did not work out.

Denmark might be a more interesting comparison.

Lot's of testing, and a population that's following sensible government guidelines.

[TechTalk]

Viewed from a different perspective of public health, rather than an individual's assertion of an inherent right to acquire and spread a new and highly contagious deadly virus without limitation or restriction, mitigation efforts could be seen as a temporary disaster response for the safety of the general public during a pandemic.

Sweden didn't think so.

Not unusual or unexpected, but that's a rather vague and opaque reply. What did Sweden not think?

[TechTalk]

Denmark might be a more interesting comparison.

Lot's of testing, and a population that's following sensible government guidelines.

There's a common myth and misconception regarding Sweden that there was little to no change in daily life and that the government did little or nothing in mitigation actions. Sweden took considerably less aggressive mitigation actions than other countries, particularly at the national level. However, Sweden did take some government actions, such as imposing limits on the size of gatherings, banning visits to nursing homes, and new regulations on bars and restaurants, to mitigate the spread. Generally, however, Sweden relied much more on advice and voluntary efforts than did other similar countries. Daily life in Sweden did change, though not to the extent seen elsewhere.

And you're right, the most useful comparisons for measuring success would be other Scandinavian neighbors. Here's how the results of Sweden's less aggressive efforts compare.

Deaths per 100,000 Population: Sweden = 58.12, Denmark = 11.73, Norway = 5.23, Finland = 6.36. The nearest EU neighbor is Germany which shares a border with Denmark. Deaths per 100,000 Population in Germany = 11.82.

The Case to Fatality Ratio: Sweden = 5.7%, Denmark = 1.9%, Norway = 1.7%, Finland = 2.6%, Germany = 2.7%

By comparison, the U.S. Deaths per 100,000 Population = 67.14 and Case to Fatality Ratio = 2.7%

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

[Alan Klein]

Not to mention the stop signs and traffic lights to control your movement. There are metering lights for busy freeways to mitigate congestion and impose a capacity limit. Even your car can exceed a legal safe passenger capacity. And if a disastrous accident occurs, the road may be closed.

Covid rules shutdown your right to earn a living and destroyed people's livelihoods.  Big difference.

[jeremyrh]

Covid rules shutdown your right to earn a living and destroyed people's livelihoods.  Big difference.

Big difference is that there isn't an exponentially growing risk that 18-wheelers smash into peoples' living rooms. 

As you are well aware, NYC had refrigerator trucks parked on a pier because the morgue was full. I don't remember seeing that happen after a traffic accident.