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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 497993 times)

Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7360 on: September 28, 2020, 04:33:30 pm »

States have existing laws on the books providing broad emergency powers allowing for the issuance of orders and regulations by executive order of the Governor during times of declared emergencies. Some states have specific Public Health Emergency statutes while others incorporate those powers into more general authority for State declared emergencies.

The laws will vary from state to state, but they all have means for conferring to the Governor the powers needed to respond to emergencies whether they are natural disasters or public health emergencies.

Funny how these "powers" are being challanged in court and the States are losing many.
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MattBurt

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7361 on: September 28, 2020, 04:35:05 pm »

In my home town, the government is not enforcing the mask restriction.  The police are encouraging maskless people to wear masks, but only one guy has been thrown in jail. He was a homeless guy with some mental health issues who was threatening to breath on tourists. The charge was thrown out, so he ended up having a mattress to sleep on and a couple of hot meals for his trouble. Still, I would wear a mask. You might get shot in Walmart arguing about it.

Here the locals are mostly complying with a few "Don't Tread on Me" enthusiasts loudly holding out. I just try to stay away from them.
I think most of our local people have the maturity level to realize this is the way out of this mess.

The trouble we get is with tourists, mostly the ones from places like Texas or Oklahoma. There have been some incidents of (minor) violence against store employees trying to enforce our local mask ordinance in their businesses. I feel really bad for the business owners who are just trying to get by in these hard times getting harassed like that. Interestingly enough the entitled jerks doing this are the same people complaining about entitlements.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7362 on: September 28, 2020, 05:07:37 pm »

Here the locals are mostly complying with a few "Don't Tread on Me" enthusiasts loudly holding out. I just try to stay away from them.


Ah...personal risk assessment and personal actions based on that assessment.  I see.  Got it
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MattBurt

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7363 on: September 28, 2020, 05:17:15 pm »

Ah...personal risk assessment and personal actions based on that assessment.  I see.  Got it

Or in a word, selfish. Like a drunk driver.
This is why a law would be more effective. A disincentive to the people who only care about themselves.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7364 on: September 28, 2020, 05:21:10 pm »

Or in a word, selfish. Like a drunk driver.
This is why a law would be more effective. A disincentive to the people who only care about themselves.

I’m not talking about those not wearing masks.  I’m talking about you.
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MattBurt

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7365 on: September 28, 2020, 05:28:31 pm »

I’m not talking about those not wearing masks.  I’m talking about you.

Well that is true but trying to avoid those people doesn't always equal actually avoiding them. If they just stayed home it wouldn't be an issue.

I do lots of personal risk assessment followed by actions when I'm in the backcountry, especially ski mountaineering in avalanche terrain.
When those decisions only affect only me I have a lot of freedom. If there might be someone below and I carelessly trigger a slide, that could get me charged with reckless endangerment. That is because my freedom ends when it infringes on someone else's life.
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TechTalk

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7366 on: September 28, 2020, 06:00:48 pm »

Federal District Court Louisiana - August 17, 2020: "On this record, the Court is compelled to conclude that Governor Edwards’ ban of on-site consumption of food or drinks at “bars” bears a “real or substantial relation” to the goal of slowing the spread of COVID-19 and is not “beyond all question” a violation of the bar owners’ constitutional rights. It is a permissible public-health measure under Jacobson and Abbott, and the Court is denied the discretion to second-guess it.

Accordingly, IT IS ORDERED: that the bar owners’ motion for preliminary and permanent injunctive relief is DENIED. All pending motions are DENIED as moot."

4 Aces Enterprises, LLC, et al. v. Bel Edwards, et al.pdf icon[PDF – 448KB

Federal Appeals Court Michigan - June 24, 2020: "The remaining three stay factors follow quickly in tow. Start with harm. Enjoining the actions of elected state officials, especially in a situation where an infectious disease can and has spread rapidly, causes irreparable harm. (See Maryland v. King, 567 U.S. 1301, 1301 (2012).) Effects on interested parties and the public interest are closely related. Though Plaintiffs bear the very real risk of losing their businesses, the Governor’s interest in combatting COVID-19 is at least equally significant. To date, the disease has infected thousands of Michiganders, and it has shown the potential to infect many more. That the public interest weighs in favor of a stay is apparent for the same reason.

We sympathize deeply with the business owners and their patrons affected by the Governor’s Order. Crises like COVID-19 can call for quick, decisive measures to save lives. Yet those measures can have extreme costs—costs that often are not borne evenly. The decision to impose those costs rests with the political branches of government, in this case, Governor Whitmer. Her motion for an emergency stay is thus GRANTED"

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/06/25/appeals-court-grants-michigan-gov-whitmers-motion-to-keep-gyms-closed/
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7367 on: September 28, 2020, 06:01:20 pm »

Well that is true but trying to avoid those people doesn't always equal actually avoiding them. If they just stayed home it wouldn't be an issue.

I do lots of personal risk assessment followed by actions when I'm in the backcountry, especially ski mountaineering in avalanche terrain.
When those decisions only affect only me I have a lot of freedom. If there might be someone below and I carelessly trigger a slide, that could get me charged with reckless endangerment. That is because my freedom ends when it infringes on someone else's life.

Still you take as much care as possible to try and assure your own safety.  With COVID it’s the best you can expect.

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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7368 on: September 28, 2020, 06:03:10 pm »

Federal District Court Louisiana - August 17, 2020: "On this record, the Court is compelled to conclude that Governor Edwards’ ban of on-site consumption of food or drinks at “bars” bears a “real or substantial relation” to the goal of slowing the spread of COVID-19 and is not “beyond all question” a violation of the bar owners’ constitutional rights. It is a permissible public-health measure under Jacobson and Abbott, and the Court is denied the discretion to second-guess it.

Accordingly, IT IS ORDERED: that the bar owners’ motion for preliminary and permanent injunctive relief is DENIED. All pending motions are DENIED as moot."

4 Aces Enterprises, LLC, et al. v. Bel Edwards, et al.pdf icon[PDF – 448KB

Federal Appeals Court Michigan - June 24, 2020: "The remaining three stay factors follow quickly in tow. Start with harm. Enjoining the actions of elected state officials, especially in a situation where an infectious disease can and has spread rapidly, causes irreparable harm. (See Maryland v. King, 567 U.S. 1301, 1301 (2012).) Effects on interested parties and the public interest are closely related. Though Plaintiffs bear the very real risk of losing their businesses, the Governor’s interest in combatting COVID-19 is at least equally significant. To date, the disease has infected thousands of Michiganders, and it has shown the potential to infect many more. That the public interest weighs in favor of a stay is apparent for the same reason.

We sympathize deeply with the business owners and their patrons affected by the Governor’s Order. Crises like COVID-19 can call for quick, decisive measures to save lives. Yet those measures can have extreme costs—costs that often are not borne evenly. The decision to impose those costs rests with the political branches of government, in this case, Governor Whitmer. Her motion for an emergency stay is thus GRANTED"

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/06/25/appeals-court-grants-michigan-gov-whitmers-motion-to-keep-gyms-closed/

Why not post the against orders as well? 
« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 06:09:03 pm by Craig Lamson »
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MattBurt

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7369 on: September 28, 2020, 06:24:40 pm »

Still you take as much care as possible to try and assure your own safety.  With COVID it’s the best you can expect.

It's the best I can expect without some kind of order or law. But I want better than that.
As a society we have proven we cannot handle the responsibility without a little more incentive. (or disincentive)
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HSakols

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7370 on: September 28, 2020, 06:35:18 pm »

Nor are these people wearing masks.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRSq-qZQLF4
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TechTalk

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7371 on: September 28, 2020, 07:14:22 pm »

Daytona Beach News-Journal - August 31, 2020

https://www.news-journalonline.com/story/news/local/volusia/2020/08/31/judge-rules-favor-mask-mandate

A Volusia County judge on Monday ruled in favor of DeLand in the case of a resident suing the city over its mask mandate.

"Because extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures, state and local governments all over America are enacting emergency laws designed to protect their citizens from the spread of this deadly virus — just like they did 100 years ago," Circuit Judge Randell H. Rowe III wrote in the conclusion of his 24-page judgment, referencing the 1918 flu pandemic. "The ordinance is authorized not only by statute, but by well settled case law precedent dating back over a hundred years."

As of the date of this judgment, for the sixth time now, a judge in Florida has rejected arguments that a local ordinance requiring people to wear face masks to reduce the spread of COVID-19 is unconstitutional," the judgment states.

As a judge in the state's Eighth Judicial Circuit held, "there is no recognized constitutional right not to wear a facial covering in public locations or to expose other citizens of the county to a contagious and potentially lethal virus during a declared pandemic emergency."

https://alachuacounty.us/ADACompliant/OrderDenyingMotionforPreliminaryInjuction-Green-v-AlachuaCounty.pdf
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 01:58:22 am by TechTalk »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7372 on: September 28, 2020, 08:04:46 pm »

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2020/09/federal-judge-denies-gov-tom-wolfs-request-for-stay-on-pandemic-restrictions-ruling.html

Federal judge denies Gov. Tom Wolf’s request for stay on pandemic restrictions ruling

A federal judge on Tuesday denied Gov. Tom Wolf’s administration’s request for a stay on a federal court decision that found some of the governor’s COVID-19 pandemic restrictions to be unconstitutional.





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TechTalk

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7373 on: September 28, 2020, 08:30:49 pm »

Sept. 17, 2020 - Why the ruling against Wolf’s COVID-19 restrictions faces long odds on appeal, explained

The decision handed Republican lawmakers a long-sought — though possibly temporary — political victory over Wolf after a string of defeats. It comes just in time for them to rally their base as many seek re-election or campaign for President Donald Trump.

But the ruling leans heavily on precedent that hasn’t been invoked or respected since the early 1900s, according to some legal experts. Even those who were less critical questioned if the decision accomplished anything because it primarily deals with restrictions that are no longer in effect, and even they doubted it would be upheld on appeal.

“The whole line of precedent that the opinion relies on was repudiated in the 1930s and has been taught as the classic error in arrogant, judicial overreach in constitutional law classes for decades,” said Julian Mortenson, constitutional law professor at the University of Michigan.

The administration is also appealing the ruling, which means it heads to the U.S. Third Circuit Court of Appeals and could eventually go to the U.S. Supreme Court. And if past rulings are any indication, the decision may face some tough scrutiny.

U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts, in a similar case out of California related to pandemic restrictions on religious gatherings, wrote in May that elected officials should be allowed latitude when acting in areas “fraught with medical and scientific uncertainties” and should not be subject to second-guessing by an “unelected federal judiciary.”

In a separate Pennsylvania federal court case brought by business owners in Philadelphia, Bucks, and Lancaster Counties, a Philadelphia judge recently ruled that business closure orders did not infringe on business owners’ constitutional rights because the restrictions were temporary.

https://www.spotlightpa.org/news/2020/09/pa-coronavirus-orders-tom-wolf-unconstitutional-legal-analysis-john-roberts/
« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 10:01:39 pm by TechTalk »
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7374 on: September 28, 2020, 08:36:39 pm »

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2020/09/federal-judge-denies-gov-tom-wolfs-request-for-stay-on-pandemic-restrictions-ruling.html

Federal judge denies Gov. Tom Wolf’s request for stay on pandemic restrictions ruling

A federal judge on Tuesday denied Gov. Tom Wolf’s administration’s request for a stay on a federal court decision that found some of the governor’s COVID-19 pandemic restrictions to be unconstitutional.

"The Wolf Administration sought the stay while appealing U.S. Western District Judge William Stickman IV’s order that was issued last week that ruled the governor’s closure of nonessential business, a stay-at-home order and an order to limit gathering sizes were unconstitutional."

Are any of those orders still in effect?
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7375 on: September 28, 2020, 08:36:54 pm »

Sept. 17, 2020 - Why the ruling against Wolf’s COVID-19 restrictions faces long odds on appeal, explained

The decision handed Republican lawmakers a long-sought — though possibly temporary — political victory over Wolf after a string of defeats. It comes just in time for them to rally their base as many seek re-election or campaign for President Donald Trump.

But the ruling leans heavily on precedent that hasn’t been invoked or respected since the early 1900s, according to some legal experts. Even those who were less critical questioned if the decision accomplished anything because it primarily deals with restrictions that are no longer in effect, and even they doubted it would be upheld on appeal.

“The whole line of precedent that the opinion relies on was repudiated in the 1930s and has been taught as the classic error in arrogant, judicial overreach in constitutional law classes for decades,” said Julian Mortenson, constitutional law professor at the University of Michigan.

The administration is also appealing the ruling, which means it heads to the U.S. Third Circuit Court of Appeals and could eventually go to the U.S. Supreme Court. And if past rulings are any indication, the decision may face some tough scrutiny.

U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts, in a similar case out of California related to pandemic restrictions on religious gatherings, wrote in May that elected officials should be allowed latitude when acting in areas “fraught with medical and scientific uncertainties” and should not be subject to second-guessing by an “unelected federal judiciary.”

In a separate Pennsylvania federal court case brought by business owners in Philadelphia, Bucks, and Lancaster Counties, a Philadelphia judge recently ruled that business closure orders did not infringe on business owners’ constitutional rights because the restrictions were temporary.

https://www.spotlightpa.org/news/2020/09/pa-coronavirus-orders-tom-wolf-unconstitutional-legal-analysis-john-roberts/

ROTFLMAO!

Get back to us if the ruling changes.  As of today it still stands Mr. Talk.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7376 on: September 28, 2020, 08:37:48 pm »

"The Wolf Administration sought the stay while appealing U.S. Western District Judge William Stickman IV’s order that was issued last week that ruled the governor’s closure of nonessential business, a stay-at-home order and an order to limit gathering sizes were unconstitutional."

Are any of those orders still in effect?

No idea but this new article is from Sept 22.
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7377 on: September 28, 2020, 08:43:15 pm »

No idea but this new article is from Sept 22.

JoeKitchen is from PA and could tell us, but he hasn't been online much lately.
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HSakols

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7378 on: September 28, 2020, 08:48:58 pm »

But sometimes Joe just has to go.
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HSakols

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7379 on: September 28, 2020, 08:52:18 pm »

Here's an article: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcEikk6YK1Y

This should do. 
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