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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 209117 times)

TechTalk

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7380 on: September 28, 2020, 08:54:22 pm »

Are any of those orders still in effect?

Even those who were less critical questioned if the decision accomplished anything because it primarily deals with restrictions that are no longer in effect, and even they doubted it would be upheld on appeal.

https://www.spotlightpa.org/news/2020/09/pa-coronavirus-orders-tom-wolf-unconstitutional-legal-analysis-john-roberts/
« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 10:02:23 pm by TechTalk »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7381 on: September 28, 2020, 09:02:04 pm »



https://www.witf.org/2020/09/14/judge-strikes-down-governor-tom-wolfs-pandemic-restrictions/

Wolf had eased many of the restrictions the plaintiffs objected to in their lawsuit — allowing businesses to reopen and canceling a statewide stay-at-home order — but the judge’s ruling noted that the administration had merely suspended those measures and could reimpose them at will.
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TechTalk

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7382 on: September 28, 2020, 10:00:20 pm »

The rest of the story

https://www.witf.org/2020/09/14/judge-strikes-down-governor-tom-wolfs-pandemic-restrictions/

Courts had consistently rejected challenges to Wolf’s power to order businesses to close during the pandemic, and many other governors, Republican and Democrat, undertook similar measures as the virus spread across the country.

Wolf had eased many of the restrictions the plaintiffs objected to in their lawsuit — allowing businesses to reopen and canceling a statewide stay-at-home order — but the judge’s ruling noted that the administration had merely suspended those measures and could reimpose them at will.

While reopening its economy, Pennsylvania limited occupancy to 75% capacity at most businesses and 50% at theaters, gyms, salons and malls. It imposed even more restrictive measures on bars and restaurants, which the Wolf administration blamed for a summer spike in virus cases.

The judge said the plaintiffs did not challenge Wolf’s occupancy limits, and his ruling does not impact those orders. Nor did the lawsuit challenge the Wolf administration’s order requiring people to wear masks in public.

Another federal judge, U.S. District Judge R. Barclay Surrick, recently dismissed parts of a separate lawsuit that challenged Wolf’s business shutdown. “We are skeptical of claims seeking to challenge emergency government action taken to combat a once-in-a-century global health crisis,” wrote Surrick, an appointee of President Bill Clinton.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7383 on: September 28, 2020, 10:13:55 pm »

The rest of the story

https://www.witf.org/2020/09/14/judge-strikes-down-governor-tom-wolfs-pandemic-restrictions/

Courts had consistently rejected challenges to Wolf’s power to order businesses to close during the pandemic, and many other governors, Republican and Democrat, undertook similar measures as the virus spread across the country.

Wolf had eased many of the restrictions the plaintiffs objected to in their lawsuit — allowing businesses to reopen and canceling a statewide stay-at-home order — but the judge’s ruling noted that the administration had merely suspended those measures and could reimpose them at will.

While reopening its economy, Pennsylvania limited occupancy to 75% capacity at most businesses and 50% at theaters, gyms, salons and malls. It imposed even more restrictive measures on bars and restaurants, which the Wolf administration blamed for a summer spike in virus cases.

The judge said the plaintiffs did not challenge Wolf’s occupancy limits, and his ruling does not impact those orders. Nor did the lawsuit challenge the Wolf administration’s order requiring people to wear masks in public.

Another federal judge, U.S. District Judge R. Barclay Surrick, recently dismissed parts of a separate lawsuit that challenged Wolf’s business shutdown. “We are skeptical of claims seeking to challenge emergency government action taken to combat a once-in-a-century global health crisis,” wrote Surrick, an appointee of President Bill Clinton.

The real rest of the story...the Judges order still stands.  Get back to us when it’s gone.  All the rest is just bs. 
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TechTalk

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7384 on: September 28, 2020, 11:00:58 pm »

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES - May 29, 2020

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/APPLICATION FOR INJUNCTIVE RELIEF May 29, 2020.pdf

SOUTH BAY UNITED PENTECOSTAL CHURCH, ET AL. v. GAVIN NEWSOM, GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA, ET AL.
ON APPLICATION FOR INJUNCTIVE RELIEF

Chief Justice Roberts

The application for injunctive relief presented to JUSTICE KAGAN and by her referred to the Court is denied.

The Governor of California’s Executive Order aims to limit the spread of COVID–19, a novel severe acute respiratory illness that has killed thousands of people in California and more than 100,000 nationwide. At this time, there is no known cure, no effective treatment, and no vaccine. Because people may be infected but asymptomatic, they may unwittingly infect others. The Order places temporary numerical restrictions on public gatherings to address this extraordinary health emergency. State guidelines currently limit attendance at places of worship to 25% of building capacity or a maximum of 100 attendees.

Applicants seek to enjoin enforcement of the Order. “Such a request demands a significantly higher justification than a request for a stay because, unlike a stay, an injunction does not simply suspend judicial alteration of the status quo but grants judicial intervention that has been withheld by lower courts.” Respect Maine PAC v. McKee, 562 U. S. 996 (2010) (internal quotation marks omitted). This power is used where “the legal rights at issue are indisputably clear” and, even then, “sparingly and only in the most critical and exigent circumstances.” S. Shapiro, K. Geller, T. Bishop, E. Hartnett & D. Himmelfarb, Supreme Court Practice §17.4, p. 17-9 (11th ed. 2019) (internal quotation marks omitted) (collecting cases).

Although California’s guidelines place restrictions on places of worship, those restrictions appear consistent with the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. Similar or more severe restrictions apply to comparable secular gatherings, including lectures, concerts, movie showings, spectator sports, and theatrical performances, where large groups of people gather in close proximity for extended periods of time. And the Order exempts or treats more leniently only dissimilar activities, such as operating grocery stores, banks, and laundromats, in which people neither congregate in large groups nor remain in close proximity for extended periods.

The precise question of when restrictions on particular social activities should be lifted during the pandemic is a dynamic and fact-intensive matter subject to reasonable disagreement. Our Constitution principally entrusts “[t]he safety and the health of the people” to the politically accountable officials of the States “to guard and protect.” Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U. S. 11, 38 (1905). When those officials “undertake to act in areas fraught with medical and scientific uncertainties,” their latitude “must be especially broad.” Marshall v. United States, 414 U. S. 417, 427 (1974). Where those broad limits are not exceeded, they should not be subject to second-guessing by an “unelected federal judiciary,” which lacks the background, competence, and expertise to assess public health and is not accountable to the people. See Garcia v. San Antonio Metropolitan Transit Authority, 469 U. S. 528, 545 (1985).

That is especially true where, as here, a party seeks emergency relief in an interlocutory posture, while local officials are actively shaping their response to changing facts on the ground. The notion that it is “indisputably clear” that the Government’s limitations are unconstitutional seems quite improbable.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7385 on: September 28, 2020, 11:14:01 pm »

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES - May 29, 2020

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/APPLICATION FOR INJUNCTIVE RELIEF May 29, 2020.pdf

SOUTH BAY UNITED PENTECOSTAL CHURCH, ET AL. v. GAVIN NEWSOM, GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA, ET AL.
ON APPLICATION FOR INJUNCTIVE RELIEF

Chief Justice Roberts

The application for injunctive relief presented to JUSTICE KAGAN and by her referred to the Court is denied.

The Governor of California’s Executive Order aims to limit the spread of COVID–19, a novel severe acute respiratory illness that has killed thousands of people in California and more than 100,000 nationwide. At this time, there is no known cure, no effective treatment, and no vaccine. Because people may be infected but asymptomatic, they may unwittingly infect others. The Order places temporary numerical restrictions on public gatherings to address this extraordinary health emergency. State guidelines currently limit attendance at places of worship to 25% of building capacity or a maximum of 100 attendees.

Applicants seek to enjoin enforcement of the Order. “Such a request demands a significantly higher justification than a request for a stay because, unlike a stay, an injunction does not simply suspend judicial alteration of the status quo but grants judicial intervention that has been withheld by lower courts.” Respect Maine PAC v. McKee, 562 U. S. 996 (2010) (internal quotation marks omitted). This power is used where “the legal rights at issue are indisputably clear” and, even then, “sparingly and only in the most critical and exigent circumstances.” S. Shapiro, K. Geller, T. Bishop, E. Hartnett & D. Himmelfarb, Supreme Court Practice §17.4, p. 17-9 (11th ed. 2019) (internal quotation marks omitted) (collecting cases).

Although California’s guidelines place restrictions on places of worship, those restrictions appear consistent with the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. Similar or more severe restrictions apply to comparable secular gatherings, including lectures, concerts, movie showings, spectator sports, and theatrical performances, where large groups of people gather in close proximity for extended periods of time. And the Order exempts or treats more leniently only dissimilar activities, such as operating grocery stores, banks, and laundromats, in which people neither congregate in large groups nor remain in close proximity for extended periods.

The precise question of when restrictions on particular social activities should be lifted during the pandemic is a dynamic and fact-intensive matter subject to reasonable disagreement. Our Constitution principally entrusts “[t]he safety and the health of the people” to the politically accountable officials of the States “to guard and protect.” Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U. S. 11, 38 (1905). When those officials “undertake to act in areas fraught with medical and scientific uncertainties,” their latitude “must be especially broad.” Marshall v. United States, 414 U. S. 417, 427 (1974). Where those broad limits are not exceeded, they should not be subject to second-guessing by an “unelected federal judiciary,” which lacks the background, competence, and expertise to assess public health and is not accountable to the people. See Garcia v. San Antonio Metropolitan Transit Authority, 469 U. S. 528, 545 (1985).

That is especially true where, as here, a party seeks emergency relief in an interlocutory posture, while local officials are actively shaping their response to changing facts on the ground. The notion that it is “indisputably clear” that the Government’s limitations are unconstitutional seems quite improbable.

Wrong case.  Can you get anything right?

Here’s a newsflash.  The judges order in the Penn case is still standing.  Get back to use when it’s not.  Again all the rest is just more Mr. Talk bs. 
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TechTalk

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7386 on: September 29, 2020, 12:15:14 am »

For those who have trouble remembering what was posted from one page to the next, the Supreme Court opinion posted above is the same one referenced in the article that I linked to on the previous page. I have reposted an abbreviated version below (underlining is in the original post). As I had included in my prior post that portion of the article which partially quoted the Supreme Court decision, I thought I would post it in its entirety. Especially given that the opinion was brief and to the point. The article referenced and linked discusses the potential difficulty that the judges order in Pennsylvania is likely to face on appeal.

One issue will be squaring the ruling with the recent Supreme Court decision posted in full above. Another will be the very odd citing of a 1905 Supreme Court case known as Lochner in the judge's ruling. The reasoning in Lochner was rejected by the Supreme Court in the 1930s and since then it is used as an example of poor reasoning by the Court and as judicial overreach into matters given to local government control. “The whole line of precedent that the opinion relies on was repudiated in the 1930s and has been taught as the classic error in arrogant, judicial overreach in constitutional law classes for decades,” said Julian Mortenson, constitutional law professor at the University of Michigan.

Sept. 17, 2020 - Why the ruling against Wolf’s COVID-19 restrictions faces long odds on appeal, explained

The administration is also appealing the ruling, which means it heads to the U.S. Third Circuit Court of Appeals and could eventually go to the U.S. Supreme Court. And if past rulings are any indication, the decision may face some tough scrutiny.

U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts, in a similar case out of California related to pandemic restrictions on religious gatherings, wrote in May that elected officials should be allowed latitude when acting in areas “fraught with medical and scientific uncertainties” and should not be subject to second-guessing by an “unelected federal judiciary.”

https://www.spotlightpa.org/news/2020/09/pa-coronavirus-orders-tom-wolf-unconstitutional-legal-analysis-john-roberts/

Legal arguments on both sides of a case currently under appeal are often discussed and some will find them interesting. Others will dismiss any argument that they disagree with as BS. C'est la vie.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 01:16:52 am by TechTalk »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7387 on: September 29, 2020, 08:22:30 am »

For those who have trouble remembering what was posted from one page to the next, the Supreme Court opinion posted above is the same one referenced in the article that I linked to on the previous page. I have reposted an abbreviated version below (underlining is in the original post). As I had included in my prior post that portion of the article which partially quoted the Supreme Court decision, I thought I would post it in its entirety. Especially given that the opinion was brief and to the point. The article referenced and linked discusses the potential difficulty that the judges order in Pennsylvania is likely to face on appeal.

One issue will be squaring the ruling with the recent Supreme Court decision posted in full above. Another will be the very odd citing of a 1905 Supreme Court case known as Lochner in the judge's ruling. The reasoning in Lochner was rejected by the Supreme Court in the 1930s and since then it is used as an example of poor reasoning by the Court and as judicial overreach into matters given to local government control. “The whole line of precedent that the opinion relies on was repudiated in the 1930s and has been taught as the classic error in arrogant, judicial overreach in constitutional law classes for decades,” said Julian Mortenson, constitutional law professor at the University of Michigan.

Legal arguments on both sides of a case currently under appeal are often discussed and some will find them interesting. Others will dismiss any argument that they disagree with as BS. C'est la vie.

In case you missed it, its gonna be a very different Supreme Court.  Its a fools errand to think  things will work out the same.  Many were shocked to see Roberts flip last time. And lets get real, this discussion on your part has nothing to do with anything being "interesting".  You just hate to lose.  Got it. 

Like I said a number of times, if the current ruling gets struck down, get back to us, For now its the law.
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7388 on: September 29, 2020, 10:34:34 am »

Like I said a number of times, if the current ruling gets struck down, get back to us, For now its the law.

This reminds me of Slobodan telling us to get back to him when the US death toll got to 60,000.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7389 on: September 29, 2020, 11:02:14 am »

This reminds me of Slobodan telling us to get back to him when the US death toll got to 60,000.

I'm fully willing to accept the another court may strike this down at some point or that another case may replace it.

However what is now is what is now.

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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7390 on: September 29, 2020, 12:02:26 pm »

I'm fully willing to accept the another court may strike this down at some point or that another case may replace it.

However what is now is what is now.

No question about that.

I was a little surprised by the closeness of the Supreme Court decision in the free exercise of religion case. I remember many years ago the Supreme Court held that the state could prohibit the use of venomous snakes in church services, to protect the public health and safety, and this seemed a natural extension. A different time I guess.

https://uscivilliberties.org/themes/4499-snake-handling-sects-and-religious-liberty.html

The decision hasn't stopped the practice. Every once in a while, you'll hear of a snake handling minister of congregant dying of a snake bite. People are crazy.

Court cases, like federal, state, and local laws and executive actions, don't stop people from doing stuff. Some people just say screw 'em.  Masks, for example.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 12:50:18 pm by faberryman »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7391 on: September 29, 2020, 01:02:18 pm »

I was just thinking that we don't hear much about hydroxychloroquine these days.

I wonder, did they ever try shining UV light down people's throats or up their nostrils?

Also, remember those quaint days back in early March when we'd see a forum post stating that there were 38,000 (or 60,000 or 42,000) flu deaths every year but that there had only been 25 Covid deaths, so what was all the fuss about?
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7392 on: September 29, 2020, 01:12:06 pm »

I was just thinking that we don't hear much about hydroxychloroquine these days.

I wonder, did they ever try shining UV light down people's throats or up their nostrils?

Also, remember those quaint days back in early March when we'd see a forum post stating that there were 38,000 (or 60,000 or 42,000) flu deaths every year but that there had only been 25 Covid deaths, so what was all the fuss about?

It has been a new distraction every day for going on four years now. It is impossible to keep track of it all. I can't even remember what happened yesterday. Something about taxes maybe?
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7393 on: September 29, 2020, 01:45:53 pm »

I was just thinking that we don't hear much about hydroxychloroquine these days.

I wonder, did they ever try shining UV light down people's throats or up their nostrils?

Also, remember those quaint days back in early March when we'd see a forum post stating that there were 38,000 (or 60,000 or 42,000) flu deaths every year but that there had only been 25 Covid deaths, so what was all the fuss about?

There is this, for what its worth :)

https://news.yahoo.com/honduras-treatment-covid-19-stands-002700994.html
T


EGUCIGALPA, Honduras, Sept. 28, 2020 /PRNewswire/ -- Catracho, the COVID-19 treatment method Honduras is using to save lives, was one of the 150 formulas chosen from 30,000 ones presented at the European Society of Clinical Microbiology and Infectious Diseases (ESCMID) Conference on Coronavirus, with the co-participation of the American Infectious Diseases Association, in Basel, Switzerland.

Catracho – as Hondurans are colloquially called – is an acrostic made up of the names (in English) of its main components: colchicine, anti-inflammatories, tocilizumab, ivermectin, blood thinners, and hydroxychloroquine.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7394 on: September 29, 2020, 02:26:26 pm »

I was just thinking that we don't hear much about hydroxychloroquine these days.

I wonder, did they ever try shining UV light down people's throats or up their nostrils?

Also, remember those quaint days back in early March when we'd see a forum post stating that there were 38,000 (or 60,000 or 42,000) flu deaths every year but that there had only been 25 Covid deaths, so what was all the fuss about?
I don't know about UV light in my mouth and down my throat.  But when I went to the dentist, they made me drink some awful tasting antiseptic liquid. Tasted like Lysol.  :)

PeterAit

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7395 on: September 30, 2020, 08:59:55 am »


Also, remember those quaint days back in early March when we'd see a forum post stating that there were 38,000 (or 60,000 or 42,000) flu deaths every year but that there had only been 25 Covid deaths, so what was all the fuss about?


The U.S.: 4% of the world's population, 20% of the covid deaths.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7396 on: September 30, 2020, 10:39:03 am »

The U.S.: 4% of the world's population, 20% of the covid deaths.

I saw a news report a couple of weeks ago, long forgotten now and no link for you, that showed a person carrying a placard on some street corner that read, "Sacrifice the Weak." People believe in things like that, presumably "herd immunity", but don't take the time to reflect that the strategy is based on an assumption that may turn out not to be true. You need to test the assumption before advocating the policy, at the very minimum. We don't know for a fact yet if Covid-19 is one of those infections that provoke long-term immunity. We already know that there are some infections that do and some that don't. People believe in things in which they want to believe, it seems, even if the motivation is unclear.

I had a mischievous thought a while back. Might be fun, in a cruel way, to engage online magical thinkers in discussions about relativistic time dilation, maybe eventually draw POTUS tweets into the mix. Sooner or later, it would emerge that there is a taxpayer funded team whose job it is to make daily corrections to satellite data to incorporate relativistic time dilation to keep GPS working. I'd just love to watch the resulting social media shit show "debate". You know that there would be online "alternative" physicists making the case that Einstein was wrong and that they should stop wasting tax dollars on such nonsense. Some poor sap would be tasked with the job to come up with an alternate explanation for the daily corrections that morons in positions of power could be persuaded to accept.

The ironies are all too delicious, aren't they? Every day, millions of people use computing devices whose functioning relies on solid state physics and quantum mechanics whose basic concepts most of them would refuse to believe in if they were explained to them.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7397 on: September 30, 2020, 12:37:41 pm »

I saw a news report a couple of weeks ago, long forgotten now and no link for you, that showed a person carrying a placard on some street corner that read, "Sacrifice the Weak." People believe in things like that, presumably "herd immunity", but don't take the time to reflect that the strategy is based on an assumption that may turn out not to be true. You need to test the assumption before advocating the policy, at the very minimum. We don't know for a fact yet if Covid-19 is one of those infections that provoke long-term immunity. We already know that there are some infections that do and some that don't. People believe in things in which they want to believe, it seems, even if the motivation is unclear.

...
I listened a few month ago to some doctor from the CDC who was asked that question about herd immunity and antibodies.  She said it was 90% certain that antibodies would work against secondary infections.  Others have stated that herd immunity is probable based on experiences with similar viruses.  The vaccine will help with herd immunity.  I'm counting on it as I'd like to get out of the house and start living again.  At 75, I may be running out of time.  :)

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7398 on: September 30, 2020, 01:01:58 pm »

I listened a few month ago to some doctor from the CDC who was asked that question about herd immunity and antibodies.  She said it was 90% certain that antibodies would work against secondary infections.  Others have stated that herd immunity is probable based on experiences with similar viruses.  The vaccine will help with herd immunity.  I'm counting on it as I'd like to get out of the house and start living again.  At 75, I may be running out of time.  :)

Alan, at 75 your chances of running for president would be higher than hoping for the herd immunity. Just keep your mask on.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7399 on: September 30, 2020, 01:10:53 pm »

Alan, at 75 your chances of running for president would be higher than hoping for the herd immunity. Just keep your mask on.
Well, I'm older than Trump.  But younger than Biden.  :)

Just what the country needs. Another septuagenarian on the brink of senility running for office.
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