PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[Peter McLennan]

I thought it had been well established that the people most at risk from Covid-19 health issues and death were elderly people with comorbidities such as diabetes, asthma, and heart problems...

So, those “virtually nobody” 200,000 seniors don’t really count?

 I mean, wtf, they’re going to die anyway.

[Robert Roaldi]

So, those “virtually nobody” 200,000 seniors don’t really count?

 I mean, wtf, they’re going to die anyway.

As Craig and others have alluded to, this kind of stuff drives "liberals/snowflakes/lefties" batty and seems to be the main reason for its existence. As if that is justification enough. As if that is an accomplishment. I don't know why it scores political points to be against environmental protection or try to ignore disease prevention, not sure what the upside is.

[Ray]

So, those “virtually nobody” 200,000 seniors don’t really count?

 I mean, wtf, they’re going to die anyway.

Everyone, whatever their age, is going to die eventually. During the past few months the over all death rates have obviously been higher than usual, although we don't seem to always have accurate figures on this.

When this pandemic is over and effective vaccines are available, there will probably be a period when death rates for a couple of years or more, in most countries, are significantly lower than the normal pre-Covid death rates, because so many elderly and unhealthy people had their lifespan shortened by a few weeks, or a few months, or a year or two.

However, I'm not implying that we shouldn't take care of the frail and elderly. Sweden has been criticized a lot for not imposing a lock-down, and its Covid death rates per population size have been very high. However, it's claimed that half or more of those deaths in Sweden have occurred in Care Homes for the elderly. I think Sweden regrets not addressing the Care Home issue much earlier.

[chez]

Everyone, whatever their age, is going to die eventually. During the past few months the over all death rates have obviously been higher than usual, although we don't seem to always have accurate figures on this.

When this pandemic is over and effective vaccines are available, there will probably be a period when death rates for a couple of years or more, in most countries, are significantly lower than the normal pre-Covid death rates, because so many elderly and unhealthy people had their lifespan shortened by a few weeks, or a few months, or a year or two.

However, I'm not implying that we shouldn't take care of the frail and elderly. Sweden has been criticized a lot for not imposing a lock-down, and its Covid death rates per population size have been very high. However, it's claimed that half or more of those deaths in Sweden have occurred in Care Homes for the elderly. I think Sweden regrets not addressing the Care Home issue much earlier.

But isn't that the case in many countries, many deaths in long term care homes. We are finally able to see my mother-in-law whose in long term...haven't seen her since March. Only reason my wife and I can visit her is because she's now considered in palliative care...nearing end of life.

[LesPalenik]

But isn't that the case in many countries, many deaths in long term care homes. We are finally able to see my mother-in-law whose in long term...haven't seen her since March. Only reason my wife and I can visit her is because she's now considered in palliative care...nearing end of life.

A friend has her mother after a stroke in a palliative care in the hospital of a medium size Ontario town, and only one member of family is allowed to visit her twice a week because of the virus situation.

[Peter McLennan]

Everyone, whatever their age, is going to die eventually.

Thanks for clearing that up for us.

[LesPalenik]

That's one thing which I'll try to put off until a later date.

[Craig Lamson]

As Craig and others have alluded to, this kind of stuff drives "liberals/snowflakes/lefties" batty and seems to be the main reason for its existence. As if that is justification enough. As if that is an accomplishment. I don't know why it scores political points to be against environmental protection or try to ignore disease prevention, not sure what the upside is.

Getting elected and denying the loony left from warping this nation into something we will all regret. Not to mention seeing liberal heads explode, but thats just a bonus.

Or we could have continued riots in the streets...oh wait...are those Biden campaign events?

BTW, Trump was correct.  When talking about young people the CDC has estimated survivability rates for 19 and younger at 99.997%

[chez]

A friend has her mother after a stroke in a palliative care in the hospital of a medium size Ontario town, and only one member of family is allowed to visit her twice a week because of the virus situation.

We can visit with my wife's mother every day for 1 hour. Temperature is taken, full gowns, gloves and masks are required. Escorted to her room and not allowed to leave the room.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

When talking about young people the CDC has estimated survivability rates for 19 and younger at 99.997%

And how much do they contribute to infecting others?

FYI, in my country, we recently have seen a significant increase in the number of younger people who are infected (due to opening of the new school and University year), and now a few weeks later the number of hospitalizations of others and ICU cases are increasing as well. The increase is so fast that, in some 2 weeks from now, we risk having to postpone elective care/surgery (which will indirectly cause additional early deaths) because ICU capacity is maxed out.

[Craig Lamson]

And how much do they contribute to infecting others?

FYI, in my country, we recently have seen a significant increase in the number of younger people who are infected (due to opening of the new school and University year), and now a few weeks later the number of hospitalizations of others and ICU cases are increasing as well. The increase is so fast that, in some 2 weeks from now, we risk having to postpone elective care/surgery (which will indirectly cause additional early deaths) because ICU capacity is maxed out.

Survival rates for other age groups are also very high.  Going from memory, I think all age groups were in the 98 plus range except for age 70 and above which was  95% iirc.

We have two choices. Stay locked up and do nothing or live and take what comes.  You decide what works for you. 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Survival rates for other age groups are also very high.

Try selling that to the families and loved ones of the more than 203,000 dead US citizens, or the 989,000 worldwide deaths, sofar.

We have two choices. Stay locked up and do nothing or live and take what comes.

It is also possible not to make the situation worse, and to follow the guidelines so that (large parts of) the economy can be reopened while minimizing the risk for oneself and others.

You decide what works for you.

I have, and I do not choose the self-centered/egotistical route that you seem to propagate.

[kamma1]

We have two choices. Stay locked up and do nothing or live and take what comes.  You decide what works for you.

We obviously have many more choices between those possibilities.   And society is all about setting laws, rules and norms to prevent people from doing what works for them when it unduly harms others.

[Craig Lamson]

We obviously have many more choices between those possibilities.   And society is all about setting laws, rules and norms to prevent people from doing what works for them when it unduly harms others.

Best of luck with that in the USA. 

But when you start tasing and arresting moms for sitting social distanced and without a mask at an outdoor football game, while letting real criminals go free from prison or not charging riotors and looters, the "laws and norms" of society have been burnt to the ground.

No, you don't have "many more choices"  You stay locked down or you continue to live.  But in the sprit of discussion I'll be happy to hear all the many ohter choices you think we have.

[Craig Lamson]

Try selling that to the families and loved ones of the more than 203,000 dead US citizens, or the 989,000 worldwide deaths, sofar.

People die every day and have since the first human walked the earth.  Lots of things have been attemped to slow or stop the virus.  Many are worse ...on the whole... than the virus.  So you make your choice. People are still going to die from this virus unless we find a cure or a vaccine, and again thats just the facts of life.     

It is also possible not to make the situation worse, and to follow the guidelines so that (large parts of) the economy can be reopened while minimizing the risk for oneself and others.

Thats not working aout all that well now is it?  Your country is seeing a return and you have a compliant pouplation and pertty strict guidelines.  Sweden on the other had is jsut going wiht the flow and taking what comes.  So whats the proper course?

Look I have no problem with tying to stay safe.  My entire household is in the compromised portion of the population.  We take all the precautions we can. But we also are going to continue to live our lives and at least I cohoose not to live in fear.  I'm going to continue to work and play as safely as I can and I would prefer that tothers do the same.  However I'm not so blind to tink that everyone thinks or lives the same way.  This is personal choice, like it or not.

I have, and I do not choose the self-centered/egotistical route that you seem to propagate.

Good for you. So have I.  As I said at the onset you have to choose.  But people are going to be people and like it or not, even with a compliant population, some folks will stilldecide whats best for them.  Its human nature and its going to happen.  You better get used to it.  I suspect that the portion of the worlds population that says "screw it " will only grow as govenments try and limit human activity.

And of course thats my point.  We as individuals have to choose.  Stay locked down or go ahead and live. Not a thing wrong with guidelines and precautions, use them as you choose.

[faberryman]

No, you don't have "many more choices"  You stay locked down or you continue to live.  But in the sprit of discussion I'll be happy to hear all the many ohter choices you think we have.

Well, you can stay in or you can go out, taking precautions such as masks, social distancing and washing your hands, or not. Go to the grocery store or not. Go get you hair cut or not. Go to a restaurant or not. Go to the park or not. Go to your job or not. Drive over and see some friends, or not. It is not an all or nothing choice. You can do pretty much anything you want. Maybe you have to wear a mask indoors. Not much different than no shirt, no shoes, no service. What restrictions does your state put on you at present? What has that prevented you from doing today?

[Craig Lamson]

Well, you can stay in or you can go out, taking precautions such as masks, social distancing and washing your hands, or not. Go to the grocery store or not. Go get you hair cut or not. Go to a restaurant or not. Go to the park or not. Go to your job or not. Drive over and see some friends, or not. It is not an all or nothing choice. You can do pretty much anything you want. Maybe you have to wear a mask indoors. Not much different than no shirt, no shoes, no service. What restrictions does your state put on you at present? What has that prevented you from doing today?

So do agree without saying so.  You either lock down or you go ahead and live and take what comes, which is exactly what you just spent time saying.  Living has always been about personal choice.  And if you choose to not stay locked down either by the state or by personal preference you are going to just go on living and take what comes. 

My state just when to stage 5 today, full occupancy for bars and resturants etc.   There is a mask mandate which is pretty much universally ignored. However private businesses still control their property and most have mask restrictions.  I can choose to visit them or not just as I can choose the do anything thats legal ( or not legal if I'm willing).  None of this is any different than pre covid, where I just went on living and took what comes.

And of course you are doing the same.

[Ray]

I feel very fortunate I live in the state of Queensland, Australia. I very rarely see anyone wearing a mask, even in the supermarkets. The population is 5.16 million and so far there have been only 6 deaths from Covid-19, which is just over 1 person per million.

A couple of days ago, last Friday, I visited the Gold Coast. I was amazed that the traffic was so congested. It was almost impossible to find a parking space when I arrived at the coast.

Attached are a few snapshots I took.

[LesPalenik]

Yesterday, I stopped at Wasaga Beach (at 14km, the longest freshwater beach in the world). Considering that it was end of September and the water is cooler than in the summer, there was no problem with social distancing on the beach, but on the main street there were quite a few congregations of teens, some of them in a very close proximity to each other.

Coincidentally, last week the number of C19 infections in Ontario has been steadily increasing.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

People die every day and have since the first human walked the earth.  Lots of things have been attemped to slow or stop the virus.  Many are worse ...on the whole... than the virus.  So you make your choice. People are still going to die from this virus unless we find a cure or a vaccine, and again thats just the facts of life.

You're missing the point. These are extra deaths (leading to excess mortality), partly avoidable if people would behave less selfish or stupid.   

Thats not working out all that well now is it?  Your country is seeing a return and you have a compliant pouplation and pertty strict guidelines.  Sweden on the other had is jsut going wiht the flow and taking what comes.  So whats the proper course?

Again, you're missing the point. It's triggered by human behavior. My country is seeing a return to higher numbers, because (mainly young) people are not social distancing as much as before. That comes after relaxation of a number of guidelines in order to open up the economy after the hospitals and ICUs were no longer swamped by COVID-19 cases (which occupy ICU capacity 3x as long as average ICU patients). These younger people spread the virus to the older population, who are more likely to die from the infection..

Swedish mentality and behavior makes it interesting to compare with other cultures, but the degree of urbanisation may also play a role.