PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[Peter McLennan]

For once, can you admit you were wrong?

HA!

[Jeremy Roussak]

Oh Frank.  Your insistent complaint that I make stuff up is taken out of the phoney CNN fake news playbook of Trump accusations.  I'm quoting a number of different articles and provided the links for all to read.  I'll let readers decide whether I made up those articles.

Alan, you have a history here of making bold statements which are false, and failing then to justify them. We've had "fibreglass causes lung cancer", "chemotherapy drugs are made from nuclear waste" and many others. Now we have "will have to shut down the whole economy", which you attempt to justify by quoting a remark which is said to have fuelled speculation that some form of restriction may at some point be necessary.

Your fingers outrun your brain. It's a foolish way to behave.

Jeremy

[Robert Roaldi]

I came across this NPR Human Brain podcast about US health care, https://www.npr.org/2020/09/02/908728981/slaying-the-fee-for-service-monster-of-american-healthcare.

It is a generalized discussion but does veer off into Covid topics from time to time so I hope it's appropriate for this thread. I remember that the topic of health care and how it is run in the US has come up from time to time in several threads. There is a fair amount of discussion in it that is really public policy so I think it fits into this place best.

It's a wide-ranging discussion about fee for service and how it has evolved over time. The person being interviewed maintains that the current system no longer fulfills people's needs very well, that incentives are not well aligned with desired outcomes. And health outcomes are becoming worse in the US, while costs keep going up, not an encouraging trend. One piece of info that she mentioned was the pervasive belief that having insurance companies compete against each other lowers costs, something for which she does not find evidence. On the contrary, she says, the adversarial overhead adds a large percentage to the final cost of health care, higher than in comparable modern economies with single payer systems (or similar). She seems to be saying that the free market competition implementation of US health care increases overhead, which is opposite to what its proponents maintain. (I could be cynical here and repeat the pretentious mantra "follow the money" as to why that would be, but I'll refrain.)

It's a long complex discussion, about an hour long, fairly dense, reasoned, driven by data not ideology. This goes against current-day norms but hey, let's be radical.

[Alan Klein]

Alan, you have a history here of making bold statements which are false, and failing then to justify them. We've had "fibreglass causes lung cancer", "chemotherapy drugs are made from nuclear waste" and many others. Now we have "will have to shut down the whole economy", which you attempt to justify by quoting a remark which is said to have fuelled speculation that some form of restriction may at some point be necessary.

Your fingers outrun your brain. It's a foolish way to behave.

Jeremy

Everyone of my posts that I make a point from what others say in media and print have the title of the article or a portion of the statement and the link for others to verify exactly what was said.   I do that more than anyone here including you.  You may not agree with my point of view, but I have a right to make my point here as much as anyone else. To go after me because you disagree with my statements reminds me of the people here in the US who want to shut up people they disagree with.  Adding an insult in your final remark is low class and frankly not something a moderator should do.  If you think I don't contribute to LuLa, then ban me permanently.  I'll be glad to get on my life without it.

[Jeremy Roussak]

Everyone of my posts that I make a point from what others say in media and print have the title of the article or a portion of the statement and the link for others to verify exactly what was said.   I do that more than anyone here including you.  You may not agree with my point of view, but I have a right to make my point here as much as anyone else. To go after me because you disagree with my statements reminds me of the people here in the US who want to shut up people they disagree with.  Adding an insult in your final remark is low class and frankly not something a moderator should do.  If you think I don't contribute to LuLa, then ban me permanently.  I'll be glad to get on my life without it.

Alan, that's simply not true. You couldn't justify your claim that fibreglass causes cancer, because it doesn't; you couldn't justify your claim that chemotherapy drugs are made form nuclear waste, because they aren't; and you haven't justified your claim that the UK economy would have to be shut down, because nobody has suggested that it will.

Those who read your posts are aware of the credibility to be afforded their factual assertions. If you want to be taken seriously, think before you post.

Jeremy

[Alan Klein]

Alan, that's simply not true. You couldn't justify your claim that fibreglass causes cancer, because it doesn't; you couldn't justify your claim that chemotherapy drugs are made form nuclear waste, because they aren't; and you haven't justified your claim that the UK economy would have to be shut down, because nobody has suggested that it will.

Those who read your posts are aware of the credibility to be afforded their factual assertions. If you want to be taken seriously, think before you post.

Jeremy

To argue that I make disputable claims is just silly.  Everyone here makes claims that are hyperbolic to make a point.    Just look at the climate change threads.  Positions are both sides are hyperbolic never mind often insulting to others.  Arguments about Covid have been on both sides of the truthful divide and mainly devoid of fact, just politics.  If you want to pick on me and demand that I research every fact before I repeat what others say, so be it.  It's not going to happen.  This is a photo forum not a scientific journal.

I said the fiberglass is cancerous because of my experience with having to wear air breathers when working with it.  Many believe there is a connection even if there may not be conclusive proof at this time.  My point about nuclear waste was hyperbole-trying to explain that when you are treated with chemotherapy, you may be injecting yourself with nuclear materials that might be considered nuclear waste by any other standard. It's dangerous.  Their toxicity is why people get so sick from it and lose their hair.  I was explaining how people already use toxic materials to help cure cancer; no reason why otherwise dangerous antiviral chemicals couldn't be used in the body in the same way against Covid.  That's my opinion.  I don't have to prove it. The last thing about shutting down the British economy was taken from articles published currently where there is great discussion about it.  I posted a link to the article for the reader to view.  Let them make up their own minds.   I think  the readers are big enough to to understand my points.  If they can't, or don;t believe me, then I provide the links to the articles where they can read the original sources. What could be more honest and fairer than that?

[Alan Klein]

As a lawyer, Jeremy, you understand that advocacy is in the eye of the beholder.  I advocate my point; others advocate theirs.  Let the jury make their own decision. 

[EricV]

Alan, you could state categorically that the earth is flat, and when challenged you could post a link to an article which states that some people hold that belief, and when further challenged you could continue to defend your statement forever, never admitting that the earth is not actually flat, and I would no longer be surprised.  That is the level of credibility I now give your posts.

[Alan Klein]

Alan, you could state categorically that the earth is flat, and when challenged you could post a link to an article which states that some people hold that belief, and when further challenged you could continue to defend your statement forever, never admitting that the earth is not actually flat, and I would no longer be surprised.  That is the level of credibility I now give your posts.

Apparently, after 366 pages, you still feel my posts are credible enough to keep reading them. Thank you for your interest and support.

[William Walker]

My mother always told me: "When you argue with a fool, there are two fools arguing.."

[MattBurt]

I can't help but think of this skit. One of my dad's favorites.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

[Chris Kern]

I can't help but think of this skit. One of my dad's favorites.

Indeed, one of the classics.  And directly on point.

[Peter McLennan]

Perfect!  Thanks for reminding us of that classic.

"I could be arguing in my spare time" is a family in-joke here.

.

[TechTalk]

Trump Says Coronavirus "Affects Virtually Nobody"

"We now know the disease. We didn't know it, now we know it. It [the coronavirus] affects elderly people, elderly people with heart problems and other problems. If they have other problems. That's what it really affects. That's it.

"You know, In some states, thousands of people—nobody young. Below the age of 18, like, nobody. They have a strong immune system, who knows? You look...Take your hat off to the young, because they have a hell of an immune system. But it affects virtually nobody. It's an amazing thing. By the way, open your schools. Everybody open your schools."

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-covid-virtually-nobody-rally-ohio

[Robert Roaldi]

Trump Says Coronavirus "Affects Virtually Nobody"

"We now know the disease. We didn't know it, now we know it. It [the coronavirus] affects elderly people, elderly people with heart problems and other problems. If they have other problems. That's what it really affects. That's it.

"You know, In some states, thousands of people—nobody young. Below the age of 18, like, nobody. They have a strong immune system, who knows? You look...Take your hat off to the young, because they have a hell of an immune system. But it affects virtually nobody. It's an amazing thing. By the way, open your schools. Everybody open your schools."

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-covid-virtually-nobody-rally-ohio

He will put satirists out of business.

[Peter McLennan]

He will put satirists out of business.

And effect tremendous job growth in the personal therapy business.

[EricV]

Apparently, after 366 pages, you still feel my posts are credible enough to keep reading them. Thank you for your interest and support.

Touche.  I will update my ignore list.

[Paulo Bizarro]

Trump Says Coronavirus "Affects Virtually Nobody"

"We now know the disease. We didn't know it, now we know it. It [the coronavirus] affects elderly people, elderly people with heart problems and other problems. If they have other problems. That's what it really affects. That's it.

"You know, In some states, thousands of people—nobody young. Below the age of 18, like, nobody. They have a strong immune system, who knows? You look...Take your hat off to the young, because they have a hell of an immune system. But it affects virtually nobody. It's an amazing thing. By the way, open your schools. Everybody open your schools."

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-covid-virtually-nobody-rally-ohio

When one thinks it would be not possible for him to be more stupid or pretentious than he has been thus far, he keeps surprising...

[Ray]

Trump Says Coronavirus "Affects Virtually Nobody"

"We now know the disease. We didn't know it, now we know it. It [the coronavirus] affects elderly people, elderly people with heart problems and other problems. If they have other problems. That's what it really affects. That's it.

"You know, In some states, thousands of people—nobody young. Below the age of 18, like, nobody. They have a strong immune system, who knows? You look...Take your hat off to the young, because they have a hell of an immune system. But it affects virtually nobody. It's an amazing thing. By the way, open your schools. Everybody open your schools."

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-covid-virtually-nobody-rally-ohio

I thought it had been well established that the people most at risk from Covid-19 health issues and death were elderly people with comorbidities such as diabetes, asthma, and heart problems.

Young and healthy people have a far lower risk of any serious consequences from Covid-19 infection. Of course, there are examples of young people also dying from Covod-19, but do we know if such people were healthy? Those young people might have had undiagnosed health problems for all we know, or some genetic condition which makes them particularly vulnerable.

From the NCBI:

"From what is known at the moment, patients with COVID-19 disease who have comorbidities, such as hypertension or diabetes mellitus, are more likely to develop a more severe course and progression of the disease. Furthermore, older patients, especially those 65 years old and above who have comorbidities and are infected, have an increased admission rate into the intensive care unit (ICU) and mortality from the COVID-19 disease.

According to the CDC, 8 out of 10 deaths reported in the USA occurred in adults 65 years old and above. Roughly 80% of COVID-19-positive cases result in full recovery from the illness without any hospitalizations or interventions."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7314621/

[LesPalenik]

I thought it had been well established that the people most at risk from Covid-19 health issues and death were elderly people with comorbidities such as diabetes, asthma, and heart problems.

Young and healthy people have a far lower risk of any serious consequences from Covid-19 infection. Of course, there are examples of young people also dying from Covod-19, but do we know if such people were healthy? Those young people might have had undiagnosed health problems for all we know, or some genetic condition which makes them particularly vulnerable.

While it is true that most deaths occur in elderly persons, even young persons can suffer long-lasting effects from the virus, and they can also infect many others.

B.C. Public Health Officer Dr. Bonnie Henry said catching the coronavirus isn’t turning out to be as fleeting as some younger people may have thought.

“We do know that for some people, and we don’t always know who, some of it has to do with the way our own immune system reacts and our genetic makeup. Some people have very severe illness and some people have long-lasting impacts, even with a milder form of the illness,” Henry said on Thursday, adding these long-term impacts are also being reported by people who haven’t been hospitalized.

“But the things that we’re hearing from young people is that fatigue, difficulty even sitting up, profound fatigue that lasts for a long period of time,” Henry explained. “For those people who do have pneumonia, difficulty breathing, shortness of breath that can last a long time.”

https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/08/14/young-people-long-term-covid/