PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[Robert Roaldi]

Maybe Alan should start a thread on Labour Economics before we get our knuckles rapped again for veering off Covid once more.

(Btw, none of the dire warnings about rises in minimum wage have ever panned out. It's fake news.)

[Jim Pascoe]

It's terrible and I hope I'm wrong.  But we're going so far into debt, we're going to impoverish ourselves. People will take any jobs they can find just to eat. A lot of the rest of the world will follow suit as their debt levels go out of sight as well.

I believe there is an economic school of thought that giving everyone an automatic minimum income would work.  Then the US could concentrate on what it does best - high quality manufacturing and service industries, and the money made from these would then subsidise the poorer population, who could work part-time in lower paid jobs, yet still survive without starving.  You may just need to share out your wealth so that everyone can thrive.  There would still be nothing stopping anyone bettering themselves or working harder to attain 'The American Dream'.

Jim

[Alan Klein]

I believe there is an economic school of thought that giving everyone an automatic minimum income would work.  Then the US could concentrate on what it does best - high quality manufacturing and service industries, and the money made from these would then subsidise the poorer population, who could work part-time in lower paid jobs, yet still survive without starving. You may just need to share out your wealth so that everyone can thrive.  There would still be nothing stopping anyone bettering themselves or working harder to attain 'The American Dream'.

Jim

The economic school of thought you're referring to is called Socialism.  Haven't the Soviet Union, Venezuela, Cuba and all those others proved it doesn't work? I really like your comment that "we may have to share out MY wealth".  I've already worked all my life to better myself. Should I come out of retirement at 75 and go back to work so you can live better?  Maybe we should spread your wealth around?  Has covetousness created approval for using the government to steal from others to give to you?  

[Peter McLennan]

The economic school of thought you're referring to is called Socialism.  Haven't the Soviet Union, Venezuela, Cuba and all those others proved it doesn't work?

The right usually refer to most of those jurisdictions as "communist".

Examples of "socialist" jurisdictions include Scandinavia, France, Canada...  etc. 

You receive Social Security don't you?  What part of "Social" Security don't you approve of?

Jim is correct. It's been widely suggested that a guaranteed annual income is not only more effective and more compassionate at reducing crime and poverty, it's cheaper.

[Alan Klein]

The right usually refer to most of those jurisdictions as "communist".

Examples of "socialist" jurisdictions include Scandinavia, France, Canada...  etc. 

You receive Social Security don't you?  What part of "Social" Security don't you approve of?

Jim is correct. It's been widely suggested that a guaranteed annual income is not only more effective and more compassionate at reducing crime and poverty, it's cheaper.

Why don't we just print and give everyone $100,000.  That way everyone could be rich. Hey.  How about $200,000.  What countries give guaranteed annual incomes like you're suggesting?  MInimum wage laws are bad enough. There's no money to pay current government expenses.  Where does that money come from? You're just deescribing redictribution of wealth to the umteenth degree.  Do it in your Canada first so we can see how it works out.

[Jim Pascoe]

The economic school of thought you're referring to is called Socialism.  Haven't the Soviet Union, Venezuela, Cuba and all those others proved it doesn't work? I really like your comment that "we may have to share out MY wealth".  I've already worked all my life to better myself. Should I come out of retirement at 75 and go back to work so you can live better?  Maybe we should spread your wealth around?  Has covetousness created approval for using the government to steal from others to give to you?

I'm not sure it is socialism.  It's not aiming to make everyone equal (perish the thought) but is a pragmatic way of distributing money when our economies move further towards mass automation of everything from manufacturing, to legal work, accountancy, food purchasing etc.  Have you not noticed (I'm assuming the US is like Europe) that supermarkets have self-service checkouts, bank branches are closing, help desks are automated.  There will not be enough physical jobs to employ our populations.  What do you think will happen?  It's not really your money either is it?  You're retired - it will have to be funded by people who are still working and the huge corporations. 
Suppose you gave every adult $20,000 a year basic income.  There would not need to be any other out of work benefits.    What would they spend it on?  Food, accommodation, services?  The money just goes round in a big circle.  Of course you could just keep them all in poverty and on unemployment benefits.  Perhaps they will steal your property, or riot and burn your house down.  Big corporations have a vested interest in the population having enough money to buy their stuff.

Here is just one link to an article which discusses it - https://www.thebalance.com/universal-basic-income-4160668

You will see that it's not without problems - but personally I feel it could be the most likely eventuality.
However it is a bit off topic - so I don't think this is the right place to discuss this. 

And MY wealth is fairly well shared around already - it's called tax........ and I expect yours is too.  It's not Left or Right either as far as i know.   It's being pragmatic.

Jim

[Jim Pascoe]

Why don't we just print and give everyone $100,000.  That way everyone could be rich. Hey.  How about $200,000.  What countries give guaranteed annual incomes like you're suggesting?  MInimum wage laws are bad enough. There's no money to pay current government expenses.  Where does that money come from? You're just deescribing redictribution of wealth to the umteenth degree.  Do it in your Canada first so we can see how it works out.

Now you're being silly.  I said a Minimum Income.  You know just enough to keep a person out of poverty.......

[Robert Roaldi]

I'm not sure it is socialism.  It's not aiming to make everyone equal (perish the thought) but is a pragmatic way of distributing money when our economies move further towards mass automation of everything from manufacturing, to legal work, accountancy, food purchasing etc.  Have you not noticed (I'm assuming the US is like Europe) that supermarkets have self-service checkouts, bank branches are closing, help desks are automated.  There will not be enough physical jobs to employ our populations.  What do you think will happen?  It's not really your money either is it?  You're retired - it will have to be funded by people who are still working and the huge corporations. 
Suppose you gave every adult $20,000 a year basic income.  There would not need to be any other out of work benefits.    What would they spend it on?  Food, accommodation, services?  The money just goes round in a big circle.  Of course you could just keep them all in poverty and on unemployment benefits.  Perhaps they will steal your property, or riot and burn your house down.  Big corporations have a vested interest in the population having enough money to buy their stuff.

Here is just one link to an article which discusses it - https://www.thebalance.com/universal-basic-income-4160668

You will see that it's not without problems - but personally I feel it could be the most likely eventuality.
However it is a bit off topic - so I don't think this is the right place to discuss this. 

And MY wealth is fairly well shared around already - it's called tax........ and I expect yours is too.  It's not Left or Right either as far as i know.   It's being pragmatic.

Jim

You're right in that this conversation is very off-topic. I just wanted to add one more thought that I've expressed before. None of the people reading this thread has ever lived under anything other than a mixed economy. The fantasy that there was some pure "free market" society at some point in which everyone basked in glory is pure myth. If laissey-faire was so great, why did EVERY modern economy move away from it? It's as silly as myth as the Soviet paradise. There are aspects of life that makes sense to manage in the private realm and there are things that are better handled in other ways. These things change from time to time. A lot of the discussion about these issues is ego-stroking and rarely fact-based.

[jeremyrh]

You're right in that this conversation is very off-topic.

Parenthetically, why does that actually matter?

[Robert Roaldi]

Parenthetically, why does that actually matter?

Convenience maybe. Someone looking at the thread's subject for the first time might be confused by posts that have nothing to do with Covid. But it doesn't matter at all to current participants, I suppose. I'm not that doctrinaire about it myself, others might be. These threads are more free for all discussions than strict debates. The one exception I'd go along with is the No Politics thread about Covid, whose purpose was (more or less) distribution of useful facts about Covid. It's shame when it gets cluttered.

[Alan Klein]

So what's with Germany?  38,000 anti-Covid mask protestors.  And people complain about Americans? 

Germany coronavirus: Hundreds arrested in German 'anti-corona' protests
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53959552

[Robert Roaldi]

So what's with Germany?  38,000 anti-Covid mask protestors.  And people complain about Americans? 

Germany coronavirus: Hundreds arrested in German 'anti-corona' protests
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53959552

I don't understand the question. No one ever suggested that loonies only live the US. They're all over. There's a couple on my block.

[LesPalenik]

So what's with Germany?  38,000 anti-Covid mask protestors.  And people complain about Americans? 

Germany coronavirus: Hundreds arrested in German 'anti-corona' protests
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53959552

The extremists (on the left or right) will use any protests and other opportunities to create trouble.

hundreds of protesters, many from the far right, tried to storm the Reichstag, the home of Germany's federal parliament. A number of people were arrested and German politicians condemned the attack as "shameful" and "unacceptable". Some of those involved had insignia from the far-right Reichsbürger (Reich Citizens) movement.

people protesting outside the Russian Embassy on Unter den Linden were "right-wing extremists" and that seven police officers had been injured.
Some protesters then broke through a cordon at the Reichstag building and were dispersed by police using pepper spray.

German news site Deutsche Welle reported that flags and T-shirts supporting the far right could be seen among the crowd.
The demonstration to the west of the Gate at the Victory Column was organised by the Stuttgart-based movement Querdenken 711 (or Lateral Thinking 711). The group has more than 16,000 followers on Facebook and communicates largely through encrypted messaging service Telegram.
It believes that coronavirus regulations infringe on basic rights and freedoms enshrined in Germany's constitution and wants them to be lifted.
The group previously organised a protest in Berlin on 1 August dubbed the "day of freedom". Thousands joined, including some from the far right and some conspiracy theorists who do not believe Covid-19 exists.

[Alan Klein]

The extremists (on the left or right) will use any protests and other opportunities to create trouble.

It's nice to know that Americans are so sane about Covid 19.  For 361 pages, we've been told we're doing it wrong. 

[jeremyrh]

It's nice to know that Americans are so sane about Covid 19.  For 361 pages, we've been told we're doing it wrong. 

Instead of looking at words on a screen, look at the number of dead - that will give you a clue about whether you're doing it wrong or not. The rest is just empty rhetoric.

[MattBurt]

Even a lot of survivors are continuing to have a lot of trouble, so not dying might sound good but it's still a hard recovery for many. One of the people I personally know who did survive COVID-19 was a competitive cyclist and ski mountaineer before getting sick. He competed at a high level and ski mountaineering probably requires the highest cardio performance just to do it, let alone being competitive.
This is his August 30 update on Facebook:

"Almost 6 months in and I still can’t breathe well. I was off of oxygen for over two months and am now back on oxygen and was back in the hospital last week. My heart is fighting but I struggle with it every day. My lungs feel like they are full of sand.
I’m ready to be better. I don’t care about the pain, I don’t care about the past, I know I almost died and that doesn’t mean a thing. I want my future. I want to run along side my son and climb peaks with Ryder and Crista. I want to take a deep breath and smell the mountain air.
I’m trying my best to live a normal life. Im trying to ignore the fact that I’m only 50% of what I was 6 months ago (or less). I’m trying my best to be a great Dad to my son and to provide for my family. I’m trying my best to not be a burden on my family and friends.
Everyone who knows me knows I love to suffer. But, this is beyond suffering.  But I’m willing to go beyond suffering in hopes that the medical community will find a way to get me (and everyone else who’s is still hurting) better. And I’d try anything at this point.
I know a lot of people think this virus is a joke. But, for people like me who are suffering please be kind enough or find it in your heart (regardless of any affiliation which means nothing in real life) to have some compassion and understanding. That should transcend all.
This article sums up the reality. There will be a lot of fall out from this regardless of the death toll.
It’s hard for me to even post this. I’m not one and never have been one to push an agenda. And it’s hard to show my personal life. But, I see the reality of this and it’s not pretty.
Trust me, you don’t want this!"

https://time.com/5878448/longterm-covid19-recognition-research/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_term=ideas_covid-19&linkId=98314923&fbclid=IwAR036Ydryu7e0AvxTgD0wc1_nimHbioMuLcI_FeXUqWy32sf5OMNBs7INzg

[Alan Klein]

Even a lot of survivors are continuing to have a lot of trouble, so not dying might sound good but it's still a hard recovery for many. One of the people I personally know who did survive COVID-19 was a competitive cyclist and ski mountaineer before getting sick. He competed at a high level and ski mountaineering probably requires the highest cardio performance just to do it, let alone being competitive.
This is his August 30 update on Facebook:

"Almost 6 months in and I still can’t breathe well. I was off of oxygen for over two months and am now back on oxygen and was back in the hospital last week. My heart is fighting but I struggle with it every day. My lungs feel like they are full of sand.
I’m ready to be better. I don’t care about the pain, I don’t care about the past, I know I almost died and that doesn’t mean a thing. I want my future. I want to run along side my son and climb peaks with Ryder and Crista. I want to take a deep breath and smell the mountain air.
I’m trying my best to live a normal life. Im trying to ignore the fact that I’m only 50% of what I was 6 months ago (or less). I’m trying my best to be a great Dad to my son and to provide for my family. I’m trying my best to not be a burden on my family and friends.
Everyone who knows me knows I love to suffer. But, this is beyond suffering.  But I’m willing to go beyond suffering in hopes that the medical community will find a way to get me (and everyone else who’s is still hurting) better. And I’d try anything at this point.
I know a lot of people think this virus is a joke. But, for people like me who are suffering please be kind enough or find it in your heart (regardless of any affiliation which means nothing in real life) to have some compassion and understanding. That should transcend all.
This article sums up the reality. There will be a lot of fall out from this regardless of the death toll.
It’s hard for me to even post this. I’m not one and never have been one to push an agenda. And it’s hard to show my personal life. But, I see the reality of this and it’s not pretty.
Trust me, you don’t want this!"

https://time.com/5878448/longterm-covid19-recognition-research/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_term=ideas_covid-19&linkId=98314923&fbclid=IwAR036Ydryu7e0AvxTgD0wc1_nimHbioMuLcI_FeXUqWy32sf5OMNBs7INzg

Sorry about your friend Matt.  It's a terrible disease that seems to resist an easy solution. We all argue over it as if we know the answers.  We don't.  Unfortunately it's going to do a lot more damage, medically and economically, before it is over. 

[MattBurt]

Sorry about your friend Matt.  It's a terrible disease that seems to resist an easy solution. We all argue over it as if we know the answers.  We don't.  Unfortunately it's going to do a lot more damage, medically and economically, before it is over.

Thanks. This is why I rely on the best expert scientific analysis I can find, not just what suits my preferences.

[JoeKitchen]

Even a lot of survivors are continuing to have a lot of trouble, so not dying might sound good but it's still a hard recovery for many. One of the people I personally know who did survive COVID-19 was a competitive cyclist and ski mountaineer before getting sick. He competed at a high level and ski mountaineering probably requires the highest cardio performance just to do it, let alone being competitive.
This is his August 30 update on Facebook:

"Almost 6 months in and I still can’t breathe well. I was off of oxygen for over two months and am now back on oxygen and was back in the hospital last week. My heart is fighting but I struggle with it every day. My lungs feel like they are full of sand.
I’m ready to be better. I don’t care about the pain, I don’t care about the past, I know I almost died and that doesn’t mean a thing. I want my future. I want to run along side my son and climb peaks with Ryder and Crista. I want to take a deep breath and smell the mountain air.
I’m trying my best to live a normal life. Im trying to ignore the fact that I’m only 50% of what I was 6 months ago (or less). I’m trying my best to be a great Dad to my son and to provide for my family. I’m trying my best to not be a burden on my family and friends.
Everyone who knows me knows I love to suffer. But, this is beyond suffering.  But I’m willing to go beyond suffering in hopes that the medical community will find a way to get me (and everyone else who’s is still hurting) better. And I’d try anything at this point.
I know a lot of people think this virus is a joke. But, for people like me who are suffering please be kind enough or find it in your heart (regardless of any affiliation which means nothing in real life) to have some compassion and understanding. That should transcend all.
This article sums up the reality. There will be a lot of fall out from this regardless of the death toll.
It’s hard for me to even post this. I’m not one and never have been one to push an agenda. And it’s hard to show my personal life. But, I see the reality of this and it’s not pretty.
Trust me, you don’t want this!"

https://time.com/5878448/longterm-covid19-recognition-research/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_term=ideas_covid-19&linkId=98314923&fbclid=IwAR036Ydryu7e0AvxTgD0wc1_nimHbioMuLcI_FeXUqWy32sf5OMNBs7INzg

What is your friend's age?  Please be at least a little statistically relevant. 

Age has been shown to be a very important aspect of whether or not you suffer from this in the long term.  BTW, if you don't want to answer, just let it be understood I will take this entire post as being statistically vague on purpose of pushing an agenda. 

Fact is, only 2.7% of those who have died are under the age of 45.  Only 6% of those who have died, died solely from C-19, meaning 94% had pervious conditions.  The majority of people who have caught this show no symptoms worth even worrying about.  90% of those who test positive can no longer pass it on.  Saying there are people who deal with medium term effects (it has not been long enough to say long term yet) is the same as saying some who catch the flu have medium term effects, even though the majority do not. 

I am tired of statistically vague statements.  Sorry for the lack of empathy, but after 6+ months of constant fear mongering from the press, I am just getting tired of not seeing important stats that allow us to assess risk. 

[Peter McLennan]

BTW, if you don't want to answer, just let it be understood I will take this entire post as being statistically vague on purpose of pushing an agenda. 

{s}Yes, absolutely.  Because "pushing an agenda" is SO important these days.  {/s}