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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 500569 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6400 on: July 22, 2020, 10:37:32 am »

Why is being consistently wrong a virtue? Might be better if he did change his mind now and then.
He has changed his mind.  But not mindlessly for the most part.  He was elected into office with a set of beliefs that he's kept even when it's hurt his re-election chances.  That's leadership.  It's OK you don't agree with those policies.  But then again you're Canadian so his policies favor America rather than your country.  I can understand why you're opposed to him especially when it comes to NAFTA and trade.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6401 on: July 22, 2020, 10:37:43 am »

As a senior who lives in a senior community, I can tell you many of us are getting antsy too.  Old, more vulnerable people, are taking more chances.  In NY, they pulled the liquor licenses of around 30 bars for violating occupancy requirements.  In one of my old stomping grounds, Astoria, Queens, huge crowds gathered of young, horney single people letting off steam.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLicT5qM-nk

When people adopt risky behaviour, a percentage of them are going to suffer consequences. No escape from that.
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6402 on: July 22, 2020, 10:44:17 am »

He has changed his mind.  But not mindlessly for the most part.  He was elected into office with a set of beliefs that he's kept even when it's hurt his re-election chances.  That's leadership.

So which is it: good that he changed his mind, or good that he didn't change his mind? 

This sounds just like that word salad Trump tossed up the other day about masks.

"No I want people to have a certain freedom, and I don’t believe in that. No, and I don’t agree with the statement that if everybody wear a mask everything disappears. Hey, Dr. Fauci said don’t wear a mask. Our Surgeon General – terrific guy – said don’t wear a mask. Everybody who is saying don’t wear a mask – all of sudden everybody’s got to wear a mask, and as you know masks cause problems, too. With that being said, I’m a believer in masks. I think masks are good."
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 10:50:02 am by faberryman »
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6403 on: July 22, 2020, 11:04:01 am »

What major issues has Trump changed his mind on?

He has changed his mind.  But not mindlessly for the most part.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6404 on: July 22, 2020, 11:06:21 am »



"No I want people to have a certain freedom, and I don’t believe in that. No, and I don’t agree with the statement that if everybody wear a mask everything disappears. Hey, Dr. Fauci said don’t wear a mask. Our Surgeon General – terrific guy – said don’t wear a mask. Everybody who is saying don’t wear a mask – all of sudden everybody’s got to wear a mask, and as you know masks cause problems, too. With that being said, I’m a believer in masks. I think masks are good."

Could this be some form of hypnosis?  It's not the meaning of the words that matter, they have no meaning. But maybe the meandering disconnected thoughtlings have some other effect on the listener. The Dilbert guy, Scott Adams, has been saying from the start that Trump is a "master persuader", maybe this is how that works. I'm unconvinced, it doesn't seem to me that he is convincing anyone anywhere of anything, but maybe that's just me. :)
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6405 on: July 22, 2020, 11:12:43 am »

Could this be some form of hypnosis?  It's not the meaning of the words that matter, they have no meaning. But maybe the meandering disconnected thoughtlings have some other effect on the listener. The Dilbert guy, Scott Adams, has been saying from the start that Trump is a "master persuader", maybe this is how that works. I'm unconvinced, it doesn't seem to me that he is convincing anyone anywhere of anything, but maybe that's just me. :)
It's Trump's way of talking out of both side of his mouth.  Most politicians learned this process in political kindergarten.  It's just that he's not very good at it because he wasn't a politician until he became president. 

MattBurt

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6406 on: July 22, 2020, 11:41:26 am »

Hu? Biden would be supporting a leftist socialist policy? Not that I can read. He is seemingly firmly on course to stay in the middle.

As far as Trump goes, you are not looking at the reality of who he is and what he did. You are looking at what you wish he did and who you wish he were.

- the main thing he did on taxes is to lower taxes for the super rich. Even his covid19 support package has most probably been mostly used to support his billlionaire friends
- he has screwed the economy big time, more than any president before him, by not taking the right measures timely on covid19. The economy is where it is because of him. Look at Germany, China, Japan... the 3 main competitors of the US economically. Countries that did take the right measures in terms of early testing and control, they are all back in business nearly as if nothing had happened
- the US military was not weak at all. The US was already spending more money on weapons than ever before (or at least at the same level as during the Cold War) and way more than any other country in the world
- the trade agreement that replaced NAFTA is a carbon copy, nothing changed
- the problem of immigration in the US isn't illegal immigration... the problem now is that it's super hard for the US leading companies to bring talents into the country. In case you don't know, the US high tech sector is alive thanks to talents from China, India and Europe. There is a minority of US engineers. And those companies are paying your retirrement.

And then of course you are not mentioning the facts that...
- the US is more isolated on the international scene than ever before. If you think that its past successes were the result of isolation, think again. The US was successful when the World liked it
- the "great America" Trump is nostalgic about is that of the 60s, a time where the super rich were taxed at 90% of their income. It's also the time when America was most inventive and most productive
- a large majority of young educated Americans (again, the same people that bring in money, that pay taxes, that fund the military you are so fond about) are ashamed to be citizens of a country led by Trump

Cheers,
Bernard

Yeah the whole Socialist label on Biden is just a Trump talking point to rile up the base and spread fear. It works on some. I would prefer if he were a little more left leaning but I'll take him as an alternative to someone who is willing to burn everything down to suit himself and his friends. 
And policy is the main reason I support him but also personality but not just because Trump really seems like a terrible person but because it matters for diplomacy and the connected world we have today. Leaders need to be able to work together and communicate effectively and with civility even if they disagree (and not just Putin).

Also being a Science denier (especially when convenient for him) is an immediate disqualification for any candidate to get my vote. Not because I believe science is gospel, but because it is the best tool we have to find the right answer to complex problems or at least eliminate wrong answers. It also gives a platform to explain a change of stance. Like Fauci's about face on the mask issue. He was making a call based on the best information and analysis he had at the time and when that changed, so did his recommendation. He didn't just change is mind, he had more complete information and he found a better answer which he explained. 

But Trump who has over and over gone against a science-based recommendations for reasons he either doesn't understand or doesn't understand well enough to be able to articulate them is a completely different approach. To me it is clearly the wrong one.

I could go on, but I know people who still support Trump are not going to change now. So instead of changing their minds we just need to outnumber them in the election. The biggest positive I see coming from his presidency is a wakeup call for people who didn't get involved or vote last time around. This presidency is like a failed science experiment that identified the wrong answer. Might have been painful but it revealed some useful information. I hope we use that information well.
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MattBurt

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6407 on: July 22, 2020, 11:48:37 am »

Here's a quote on his mask reversal that I think sums up my feelings too.

"I'm glad trimp caved and completely reversed course on mask wearing, even if he did it in his signature, pathetic way. Even if he did it 6 months late. Even if he did it obviously and only serve himself instead of lead a nation through a global crisis. "
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6408 on: July 22, 2020, 11:59:44 am »

My point was that Trump kept his word to strengthen the military...

I don't know how you can say this. For years we have had a mine shaft gap, and Trump hasn't done a thing about it. Why would he? He's Putin's puppet.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 12:05:34 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6409 on: July 22, 2020, 12:28:20 pm »

Here's a quote on his mask reversal that I think sums up my feelings too.

"I'm glad trimp caved and completely reversed course on mask wearing, even if he did it in his signature, pathetic way. Even if he did it 6 months late. Even if he did it obviously and only serve himself instead of lead a nation through a global crisis. "
The mask is fodder for political junkies.  In two years, when we're trying to dig our way out of a depression, and people are starving on the streets of the world, no one's going to remember much less care about masks.  The election has screwed up our priorities.  It reminds me of the band playing on in the movie Titanic while the ship is sinking. 

faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6410 on: July 22, 2020, 12:50:25 pm »

It reminds me of the band playing on in the movie Titanic while the ship is sinking.

Yeah, but that was just in the movie.  In real life, the band was first in the life boats. [insert Johnny Carson voice over: "I did not know that."]
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 01:53:58 pm by faberryman »
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MattBurt

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6411 on: July 22, 2020, 12:52:09 pm »

The mask is fodder for political junkies.  In two years, when we're trying to dig our way out of a depression, and people are starving on the streets of the world, no one's going to remember much less care about masks.  The election has screwed up our priorities.  It reminds me of the band playing on in the movie Titanic while the ship is sinking.

That's almost a good analogy. It's actually a lot more like the lifeboat situation on the Titanic. Not enough of them to begin with because they were in denial about ever needing them. Then when they needed them, some people got preferential treatment and got on boats and the crew didn't even fill those to capacity, knowingly leaving many to die. They died from a combination of lack or preparation, favoritism, and incompetence. The iceberg just revealed all these festering problems that were already present.

I'm glad you mentioned the Titanic. The more I think about it the more fitting it is. 
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6412 on: July 22, 2020, 01:22:03 pm »

Brandy Lee, everyone's favorite psychiatrist, has a few words to share about Trump and shared psychosis:

https://www.salon.com/2020/07/22/trumps-psychosis-has-infected-his-followers-heres-how-to-get-them-better_partner/
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hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6413 on: July 22, 2020, 02:50:09 pm »

So which is it: good that he changed his mind, or good that he didn't change his mind? 

This sounds just like that word salad Trump tossed up the other day about masks.

"No I want people to have a certain freedom, and I don’t believe in that. No, and I don’t agree with the statement that if everybody wear a mask everything disappears. Hey, Dr. Fauci said don’t wear a mask. Our Surgeon General – terrific guy – said don’t wear a mask. Everybody who is saying don’t wear a mask – all of sudden everybody’s got to wear a mask, and as you know masks cause problems, too. With that being said, I’m a believer in masks. I think masks are good."

Sounds like a grade three student book report.
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hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6414 on: July 22, 2020, 02:51:58 pm »

Could this be some form of hypnosis?  It's not the meaning of the words that matter, they have no meaning. But maybe the meandering disconnected thoughtlings have some other effect on the listener. The Dilbert guy, Scott Adams, has been saying from the start that Trump is a "master persuader", maybe this is how that works. I'm unconvinced, it doesn't seem to me that he is convincing anyone anywhere of anything, but maybe that's just me. :)

He's convinced me that he can't string a few words together to form a logical sentence.
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hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6415 on: July 22, 2020, 02:53:19 pm »

It's Trump's way of talking out of both side of his mouth.  Most politicians learned this process in political kindergarten.  It's just that he's not very good at it because he wasn't a politician until he became president.

No it's a peak at the inner mind of Trump. Random chaos flowing unobstructed.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6416 on: July 22, 2020, 03:10:36 pm »

No it's a peak at the inner mind of Trump. Random chaos flowing unobstructed.
We all talked about this early in his presidency.  Trump is a gambler, a risk taker.  He'll do something that's unusual to see if it creates benefits.  If it does, he sticks with it.  If it doesn't, he changes his approach. 

hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6417 on: July 22, 2020, 03:16:39 pm »

We all talked about this early in his presidency.  Trump is a gambler, a risk taker.  He'll do something that's unusual to see if it creates benefits.  If it does, he sticks with it.  If it doesn't, he changes his approach.

So he gambled on Covid, over 140,000 people lost their lives and many more to come, it didn't stick so now he is going to change his approach. And you support this bozo, gambling with people's lives.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6418 on: July 22, 2020, 03:31:35 pm »

So he gambled on Covid, over 140,000 people lost their lives and many more to come, it didn't stick so now he is going to change his approach. And you support this bozo, gambling with people's lives.
And you want to gamble with America's economy and the subsequent deaths and damages lockdown creates.  The fact is there is no simple solution to Covid 19.  It created medical and economic problems that has no obvious solution.  Trying to thread the needle is an impossibility.  Who will you blame when people start starving in the streets and becoming homeless?

hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6419 on: July 22, 2020, 03:37:48 pm »

And you want to gamble with America's economy and the subsequent deaths and damages lockdown creates.  The fact is there is no simple solution to Covid 19.  It created medical and economic problems that has no obvious solution.  Trying to thread the needle is an impossibility.  Who will you blame when people start starving in the streets and becoming homeless?

Alan, why not look at other parts of the world. Look at Vietnam, Thailand, New Zealand, Korea etc... Their death count is miniscule and their economies are opening up. No one is starving. Trump has screwed up big time...Covid is running rampant across the country killing thousand ps and infecting millions...yet the economy is also down the tube and will be for many years as Trillions have been spent trying to keep it going. So both are screwed...Trump f'd up both ends.
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