PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

There are many things to say on this, some resulting from by partisan politics, some resulting from Trump’s declarations.
- is there some racism deeply rooted in some parts of the US society, especially in some States? It seems to be the case
- is it specific to the US? Most definitely not unfortunately. The targeted population is different but there is a lot of racism in Europe too, in particular towards people of North African extraction
- are the cops in the US more racist than the average person? Most probably not
- are the consequences more severe and therefore more visible were a cop to be racist? Obviously yes
- has the free access to gun ownership a negative impact? Obviously yes, at several levels. Cops are at a much increased risk as a result of the high likely hood that a person supposed to be a criminal may have a gun. It increases drastically the cop’s level of stress and increases the possibility of a genuine mistake. It also calls for more agressive forms of control during arrests to reduce the odds that the suspect may reach out for a gun.
- has the no tolerance for crime policy something to do with this? Most probably because it resulted in - other than some private companies getting a vested interest in increasing the number of people being incarcerated - a dramatic increase of the number of people in jail for small crimes. Thise being correlated to poverty which has resulted in a tremendous inequality against black people. These black people, often first teens with a slight drug problem get trained in jail to become real
Criminals and the vicious circle goes on. The no tolerance on crime policy has simply resulted in poverty becoming a crime
- has Trump’s attitude helped reduce racism in the US? That seems highly unlikely

That's the most balanced post I've seen from you in a while, Bernard.

A quick statistics (citing from memory): cops are 5x more likely to be shot by a black guy than a white guy. Perhaps helps to understand the state of mind of cops when confronting a black suspect.

[John Camp]

I've talked to a lot of cops about this kind of thing, and here are some observations.

1. Around 600,000 men are released from US prisons every year, and around 250,000 are black.

2. I think -- I can't prove this -- that from long observation of the police, perhaps 20% shouldn't be on the street because of problems of authoritarianism, racism, burnout, poor training, stupidity and other issues. There are about 800,000 cops in the US, which means you could have 150,000 really bad cops out there. When these two populations interact, you're going to have tragedies. It's absolutely inevitable. Trying to stop these things is like trying to stop traffic deaths. If you have cars, people are going to die in them. If you have hundreds of thousands of felons released from prisons every year, and all those bad cops, you're going to get really bad killings.

3. Fixing it would be enormously expensive. Enormously expensive. Billions and billions of more dollars, on top of what is already spent, and it probably still wouldn't fix it.

4. The US is awash with guns. Cops, like anyone else, get scared, and they get pissed off, and they over-react. With so many guns, and so many violent people out there, when somebody resists a cop, they don't really spend time thinking about what they should do. They simply put the violator on the ground, black, white, male, female, they don't care. So, you get dead people. Get used to it.

5. I really don't think racism is a big motive (although it is in some cases.) Usually, I think, it's bad training, I think it's carelessness and anger and exasperation.

6. A lot of cops will tell you that if you took 80% of the murderers out of prison, and replaced them with all the ratshit criminals, black, white and other,  running around in the streets, you'd have quite a peaceful civilization. Most murderers won't kill a second time. A lot of these guys who are the center of the Black Lives Matter attention are simply assholes -- passing bad counterfeit bills that rip off the local grocer, shoplifting stuff and resisting when the cops are called, and so on. These guys drive the cops crazy, and sometimes they get whacked around when they shouldn't.

[LesPalenik]

Gentle window smashing

https://twitter.com/i/status/1267247469089316864

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Another post, John, where we agree almost completely.

[PeterAit]

An independent autopsy on George Floyd shows that he was killed by asphyxiation and by cutoff of blood to the brain caused by sustained pressure to the neck and back. This autopsy was not by some county coroner but by an ex-medical examiner of NY City, and a member of the Dept of Pathology at the U of Michigan.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/officers-cut-blood-air-flow-george-floyd-s-brain-causing-n1221316

[JoeKitchen]

I wasn't justifying it, sorry you took it to mean that. What I am saying is that when they happen, it's probably a sign that something hasn't been handled properly. Getting all "law and order" about it, if that's ALL you do, won't fix much.

If you believe that, then watch the video on this news cast. 

'We're better than this': Kenney meets with frustrated community members following night of looting, destruction in West Philadelphia

There are a lot of pissed off black people in it at the fact more police and law and order was not brought to their neighborhoods. 

[Alan Klein]

Gentle window smashing

https://twitter.com/i/status/1267247469089316864

That's funny.  It would have been easier if she used the front door.  But these people aren't too smart. 

[Alan Klein]

An independent autopsy on George Floyd shows that he was killed by asphyxiation and by cutoff of blood to the brain caused by sustained pressure to the neck and back. This autopsy was not by some county coroner but by an ex-medical examiner of NY City, and a member of the Dept of Pathology at the U of Michigan.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/officers-cut-blood-air-flow-george-floyd-s-brain-causing-n1221316

But he was hired by the family and he said the charge should be raised to 1st degree murder which is what the family was calling for. This whole thing is getting too political.  I'm surprised that have lynched the cop yet and the other three officers. 

[kers]

Oh, God... how you foreigners fall for the brainwashing narrative of the American leftist media!

Three of the four cops involved are non-white. The fourth cop is married to a minority woman (so racist!).

I wonder how a minority woman looks like...

[JoeKitchen]

But he was hired by the family and he said the charge should be raised to 1st degree murder which is what the family was calling for. This whole thing is getting too political.  I'm surprised that have lynched the cop yet and the other three officers.

And that's what would get the cop off, over charging him. 

3rd degree murder seems appropriate and brings with it a 40 year sentence.  Charging him with 1st would make it easy to get him off.

[Alan Klein]

There are many things to say on this, some resulting from by partisan politics, some resulting from Trump’s declarations.
- is there some racism deeply rooted in some parts of the US society, especially in some States? It seems to be the case
- is it specific to the US? Most definitely not unfortunately. The targeted population is different but there is a lot of racism in Europe too, in particular towards people of North African extraction
- are the cops in the US more racist than the average person? Most probably not
- are the consequences more severe and therefore more visible were a cop to be racist? Obviously yes
- has the free access to gun ownership a negative impact? Obviously yes, at several levels. Cops are at a much increased risk as a result of the high likely hood that a person supposed to be a criminal may have a gun. It increases drastically the cop’s level of stress and increases the possibility of a genuine mistake. It also calls for more agressive forms of control during arrests to reduce the odds that the suspect may reach out for a gun.
- has the no tolerance for crime policy something to do with this? Most probably because it resulted in - other than some private companies getting a vested interest in increasing the number of people being incarcerated - a dramatic increase of the number of people in jail for small crimes. Thise being correlated to poverty which has resulted in a tremendous inequality against black people. These black people, often first teens with a slight drug problem get trained in jail to become real
Criminals and the vicious circle goes on.

The no tolerance on crime policy has simply resulted in poverty becoming a crime. I personally think that, regardless of the original intent, this policy is by far the worst offender in terms of increasing racial inequalities in the US. It acts as a lever that démultiplies the negative consequences of any deviation from the ideal behavior and toughens the society, introducing fear at its heart
- has Trump’s attitude helped reduce racism in the US? That seems highly unlikely



Cheers,
Bernard

Something I questioned along that line is whether smaller cops especially female cops who are smaller in statue have to resort to more violent measures that could be more easily resolved if they were bigger.  Size counts when you're trying to control a potentially dangerous situation.

[Peter McLennan]

The second autopsy stated that he was dead in less than four minutes after he was held down. He was held down for a total of nearly nine minutes.  Apparently his time of death was calculated from both video and medical data. Yet, inexplicably, the first autopsy said that he died later, in hospital.

The first autopsy also mentioned the possibility of intoxicants and pre-existing medical conditions contributing to the death. Both of these assertions were contradicted by the second autopsy.

Somebody's making stuff up. Perhaps we need a third opinion.

[Alan Klein]

The second autopsy stated that he was dead in less than four minutes after he was held down. He was held down for a total of nearly nine minutes.  Apparently his time of death was calculated from both video and medical data. Yet, inexplicably, the first autopsy said that he died later, in hospital.

The first autopsy also mentioned the possibility of intoxicants and pre-existing medical conditions contributing to the death. Both of these assertions were contradicted by the second autopsy.

Somebody's making stuff up. Perhaps we need a third opinion.

It looks like they were taking instructions from our forums. 

[John Camp]

The second autopsy stated that he was dead in less than four minutes after he was held down. He was held down for a total of nearly nine minutes.  Apparently his time of death was calculated from both video and medical data. Yet, inexplicably, the first autopsy said that he died later, in hospital.

The first autopsy also mentioned the possibility of intoxicants and pre-existing medical conditions contributing to the death. Both of these assertions were contradicted by the second autopsy.

Somebody's making stuff up. Perhaps we need a third opinion.

No, the first autopsy didn't say he died at the hospital. The first autopsy said he was declared dead at the hospital. The people doing the second autopsy explained this during their press conference. When a person is picked up by the EMTs, they don't bother to examine him and declare him dead on the spot, they rush him to th hospital, attempting to revive him on the way back. He got the heart shot on the way back, in the ambulance, and it had no effect. At the hospital, he was declared dead. He was almost certainly dead on the spot, but that's not how declarations of death work.

[John Camp]

An independent autopsy on George Floyd shows that he was killed by asphyxiation and by cutoff of blood to the brain caused by sustained pressure to the neck and back. This autopsy was not by some county coroner but by an ex-medical examiner of NY City, and a member of the Dept of Pathology at the U of Michigan.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/officers-cut-blood-air-flow-george-floyd-s-brain-causing-n1221316

Not some county coroner. An accredited medical examiner who did more than look at videos.

This was released today by the medical examiner's office.

"The Hennepin County Medical Examiner released the official cause of death to George Floyd on Monday.

According to the medical examiner, the official cause of death is stated as "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression." The manner of death is homicide, a term the medical examiner uses to describe any death caused by the intentional actions of another person or persons.

The report goes on to note Floyd experienced a cardiopulmonary arrest while being restrained by Minneapolis Police Department. Floyd also had significant conditions noted by the medical examiner, such as hypertensive heart disease, fentanyl intoxication and recent methamphetamine use."

[BernardLanguillier]

That's the most balanced post I've seen from you in a while, Bernard.

A quick statistics (citing from memory): cops are 5x more likely to be shot by a black guy than a white guy. Perhaps helps to understand the state of mind of cops when confronting a black suspect.

Thank you, but frankly I wrote it with the exact same spirit as all my other posts. I look at facts and I apply common sense, reason and logic.

Perhaps the difference is on your side Slobodan.

Sorry to say, but you appear to loose a lot of objectivity as soon as the topic is Trump.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Chris Kern]

3rd degree murder seems appropriate and brings with it a 40 year sentence.  Charging him with 1st would make it easy to get him off.

Exactly.  No competent prosecutor would propose a first-degree murder charge on the publicly-known facts.  To convict for first-degree murder, the prosecutor would have to prove premeditation (i.e., that the perpetrator planned the murder in advance).  To convict on second-degree murder, the prosecutor would have to prove intention to kill (i.e., not just to restrain or even to injure).  Either of those charges would be extremely difficult to sustain.

The Minnesota statute does not require either premeditation or intention to kill in order to prove a charge of third-degree murder; it defines the crime as causing "the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life."

As a backstop (a "lesser-included offense"), in the event that the trial jury is unable to agree unanimously on the murder charge,* the Minnesota prosecutor has charged the cop with second-degree manslaughter, which only requires "culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another."

―――
*In the United States, criminal charges must be proved "beyond reasonable doubt."

[LesPalenik]

If you believe that, then watch the video on this news cast. 

'We're better than this': Kenney meets with frustrated community members following night of looting, destruction in West Philadelphia

There are a lot of pissed off black people in it at the fact more police and law and order was not brought to their neighborhoods.

Those riots and the aftermath were really bad. And that was just one city. I wonder what was the total damage across USA.

[Peter McLennan]

The first autopsy said he was declared dead at the hospital.

Thanks for the apparent correction. If true, then what I read was wrong.

[Peter McLennan]

Meanwhile, can one of the <insert usual suspects here> please explain the intent of this image?

It's Trump.  After the authorities tear gassed and flash banged hundreds of peaceful protesters in a park, he walked a few hundred feet across the road (accompanied by his attorney general, his press secretary, a ton of secret service personnel and a bunch of "advisors") so he could pose for this image, where he's apparently brandishing a bible in front of a church.

Just looking for a little clarity here, since he said nothing.


https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/peaceful-protesters-gassed-so-trump-can-do-bible-photo-op.html